More rivers to be lost to Hydro schemes

Inland paddling
User avatar
bigbird
Posts: 196
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2004 1:33 am
Location: Dundee

More rivers to be lost to Hydro schemes

Post by bigbird » Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:59 pm

Just been sent this, which looks like the loss of the Allt Fionn, Ben Glas, Derrydarroch and Upper Falloch from the list of paddleable rivers in and around Loch Lomondside...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scot ... 631831.stm
All for political and european grant money gains with seemingly little energy or jobs value compared to alternatives for similar investment. Will result in huge amounts of environmentally unfriendly concrete being dumped in the area.
Cheers
Iain

Dave McCraw
Posts: 575
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:10 pm

Re: More rivers to be lost to Hydro schemes

Post by Dave McCraw » Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:22 pm

Should be surprising to nobody... I can't imagine it will be too long before the main section of the Falloch is hit, as the gradient and volume combined with the proximity of power infrastructure for these four schemes will make it a low hanging fruit indeed.

User avatar
Dug
Posts: 1251
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 6:34 pm
Location: Wem, Shropshire

Re: More rivers to be lost to Hydro schemes

Post by Dug » Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:14 pm

Dont expect many people to care around here bigbird...

User avatar
SwamP
Posts: 3101
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:14 pm
Location: Edinburgh

Re: More rivers to be lost to Hydro schemes

Post by SwamP » Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:01 pm

Dug wrote:Don't expect many people to care around here bigbird...
Please no one take this bait.

I've only been involved in the sport for about 13 years but in this short time I've seen many many people in the sport of kayaking/canoeing care very much and as such have made the best effective efforts to do something about it....again thanks to all of them.

And thanks to Big Bird to highlighting this for anyone who didn't already know about it.

Please continue your support for the SCA and those who have achieved and continue to do so.

Dug, have nice trip to Austria.
Lets not try to understand each other. Thanks.

User avatar
TheKrikkitWars
Posts: 5809
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:44 pm
Location: Sheffield

Re: More rivers to be lost to Hydro schemes

Post by TheKrikkitWars » Fri Apr 23, 2010 12:42 pm

Dug wrote:Dont expect many people to care around here bigbird...
You can't win them all, BUT as Ryan says the SCA cares *a lot*; in fact their efforts to save the Braan are unique worldwide in having saved a river from hydro (which is rare enough on its own) for its recreational potential.

We should all stand behind the SCA in its attempts to save rivers from Hydropower, whilst accepting that they do have finite resources and are thus forced to prioritise their efforts.
ONE BLADE, ONE LOVE, [TOO] MANY PIES


Joshua Kelly

Peter Brown
Posts: 258
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 10:59 am
Location: Glasgow

Re: More rivers to be lost to Hydro schemes

Post by Peter Brown » Fri Apr 23, 2010 7:00 pm

Here's all(?) current applications http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Busin ... s-Database

There isn't much info about a lot of these here, anyone know where you can find more?
Anyone know status or details of other Falloch schemes, and the Grudie?

User avatar
bigbird
Posts: 196
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2004 1:33 am
Location: Dundee

Re: More rivers to be lost to Hydro schemes

Post by bigbird » Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:34 am

That list has some classy runs in it, such as the Invervar, Keltneyburn, Ben Glass, Falloch, Grudie, Urlar. Best get out there and get them done soon, cos there's no way we can repeat the (magnificent) effort of saving the Braan on all these other schemes. Damn shame considering the paultry energy figures most of these schemes are wrecking the surroundings for.

User avatar
Dug
Posts: 1251
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 6:34 pm
Location: Wem, Shropshire

Re: More rivers to be lost to Hydro schemes

Post by Dug » Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:56 am

TheKrikkitWars wrote:
Dug wrote:Dont expect many people to care around here bigbird...
You can't win them all, BUT as Ryan says the SCA cares *a lot*; in fact their efforts to save the Braan are unique worldwide in having saved a river from hydro (which is rare enough on its own) for its recreational potential.

My comment comes from the fact that pretty much everyone says get behind the SCA etc etc. The 'SCA' as far as the hydro campaign goes are two people (one of whom I know fairly well). Maybe people doing a little themselves as well would not hurt....
Got to say though the silence is better than the last response here to a post about hyrdo, its normally dam them all but for gods sake dont dam my local rivers... And ofcourse Ryan, master of the universe's obligitory points scoring.

User avatar
SwamP
Posts: 3101
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:14 pm
Location: Edinburgh

Re: More rivers to be lost to Hydro schemes

Post by SwamP » Mon Apr 26, 2010 12:38 pm

What?

I'm not getting into this but, 'point's scoring'? Arsenal playing at home with you?

I don't mean this in a personal condesending way but in black and white I don't really give you a second thought Dug when making efforts to combat any destructive and counter-productive hydro developments. Trust me with all the things going on in my life right now scoring points against someone I've met three times aint high on my to do list.

The fact is there are, have always been and always will be a hell of a lot more than TWO people making real efforts to help in the best, most effective, least hypocritical and least counter productive way.

Cheers to those! :o)
Lets not try to understand each other. Thanks.

User avatar
Dug
Posts: 1251
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 6:34 pm
Location: Wem, Shropshire

Re: More rivers to be lost to Hydro schemes

Post by Dug » Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:02 pm

Damn thats a lotta points you've racked up there, more like St Mirren I'm playing with...

It's not so much me Ryan but generally every time you post here you seem to have this pathological need to be 'the big man', putting others down to make you look clever.

I feel very strongly about the whole Hyrdo issue, in past postings I've been rather disappointed that a large number of other forum members don't share this view. It is their view to take and one I can disagree with and be annoyed at but it is still their's to take, hence my "bait" which you so nicely describe, with your nice sarcastic little ending.

There are indeed more people involved in the anti Hydro campaign than just the two at the SCA but they do by far the most work on the major issues. I've written letters etc etc and so on. It's not a contest and for someone 'on the same side' you seem to make yourself out to be you try awfully hard to argue against. Could it jus be you trying to get a reaction as you do out of a lot of other people on here?

All I see from you are 'big man' words on an internet forum Ryan, same with most of the other topics you post on.

User avatar
SwamP
Posts: 3101
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:14 pm
Location: Edinburgh

Re: More rivers to be lost to Hydro schemes

Post by SwamP » Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:52 pm

Oh god,….

Dug, I didn’t describe ‘bait’, I said it and moved on, positively. Hoping to offer a little respect and gratitude to those ‘on here’ who have done a lot and do care.

As for the rest you’ve hit the nail on the head, putting others down to make myself feel like “the big man, master of the universe” is my bread and butter...

In this case I am torn between an articulate response explaining all whilst pointing out my quite innocent and ‘getting back to the point’ initial post I submitted. Or a more honest true to my past destructive response that would only be better served in another way.

I’m afraid that I’m both too busy and also have more respect for Mark, Neil, Nick and many others whom I’d be embarrassed to ever discuss an actual opinion of you to. So at this stage I wont form one.

Ironically though I am actually ridiculously and happily humbled and all knowingly insignificant by the many mates and acquaintances who are doing some amazing stuff worldwide…they who would think me trying to be the big man quite a ridiculous concept….even last week I met a 27yo who had lived just the most amazing life and was continuing to do so, just so blown away by him and his missus. Or even the weekend I’ve just had, Easdale and the Islands, just amazing! (sorry I'm easily very impressed by stuff)

If you’ve got a problem then fix it, if you see the negative in everything, fix it. See sarcasm in ‘have a nice holiday to Austria’, then fix it. I don’t care, I don’t live that kind of life. It appears as insecurity but I don’t know you well enough to say maybe others do. Whatever.

After thanking Bigbird for posting this all I really wanted to really ask was is he the guy who I’ve been told about getting his head stuck between two rocks on the Blackwater and having to wiggle out his crasher to get free? (awesome story!)

But hey, I took the bait.
Lets not try to understand each other. Thanks.

Dave McCraw
Posts: 575
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:10 pm

Re: More rivers to be lost to Hydro schemes

Post by Dave McCraw » Mon Apr 26, 2010 2:05 pm

bigbird wrote:That list has some classy runs in it, such as the Invervar, Keltneyburn, Ben Glass, Falloch, Grudie, Urlar. Best get out there and get them done soon, cos there's no way we can repeat the (magnificent) effort of saving the Braan on all these other schemes. Damn shame considering the paultry energy figures most of these schemes are wrecking the surroundings for.
Invervar and Keltneyburn have both gone already. As far as I know there are no tributaries in Glen Lyon any more?

I think the third edition of the guidebook will be needed mainly to take runs *out*.

User avatar
Robert Surrey
Posts: 464
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 3:43 pm
Location: Rovrum

Re: More rivers to be lost to Hydro schemes

Post by Robert Surrey » Mon Apr 26, 2010 2:13 pm

After thanking Bigbird for posting this all I really wanted to really ask was is he the guy who I’ve been told about getting his head stuck between two rocks on the Blackwater and having to wiggle out his crasher to get free? (awesome story!)
Oh please let this be true.
Is it Iain?
Life is short. Filled with stuff.

User avatar
Dug
Posts: 1251
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 6:34 pm
Location: Wem, Shropshire

Re: More rivers to be lost to Hydro schemes

Post by Dug » Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:36 pm

Ryan P wrote:
As for the rest you’ve hit the nail on the head, putting others down to make myself feel like “the big man, master of the universe” is my bread and butter...
Sounds about right there.
Ryan P wrote:
I’m afraid that I’m both too busy and also have more respect for Mark, Neil, Nick and many others whom I’d be embarrassed to ever discuss an actual opinion of you to. So at this stage I wont form one.
Eh who mentioned people that we mutually know? Was everyone I know not a prick or a lier or somthing along those lines last time you decided to be the internet big man and I just left it?
Ryan P wrote: Ironically though I am actually ridiculously and happily humbled and all knowingly insignificant by the many mates and acquaintances who are
doing some amazing stuff worldwide…they who would think me trying to be the big man quite a ridiculous concept….even last week I met a 27yo who had lived just the most amazing life and was continuing to do so, just so blown away by him and his missus. Or even the weekend I’ve just had, Easdale and the Islands, just amazing! (sorry I'm easily very impressed by stuff)
Holy sh*t you know other people? You met someone? Damn I've never done that, obvously gains you a moral high ground?
Ryan P wrote:
If you’ve got a problem then fix it, if you see the negative in everything, fix it. See sarcasm in ‘have a nice holiday to Austria’, then fix it. I don’t care, I don’t live that kind of life. It appears as insecurity but I don’t know you well enough to say maybe others do. Whatever.
Strange I only get that with you Ryan.

Graeme Seggie
Posts: 91
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:08 am

Re: More rivers to be lost to Hydro schemes

Post by Graeme Seggie » Mon Apr 26, 2010 5:48 pm

Is this in any way related to the appearance of a dam up in Glen Douglas (Lomond side) or is that not even power generation related? Perhaps it is just to hold water for the farm nearby.

I'm not sure how long it has been there but looks quite new and the scarring on the adjacent land does too. As I have not been up there for ages until this weekend past, I wondered when it went in and what it was for. The pond behind it is very small but it may not have filled to the intended size yet if it is a new development.

Graeme.

User avatar
SwamP
Posts: 3101
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:14 pm
Location: Edinburgh

Re: More rivers to be lost to Hydro schemes

Post by SwamP » Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:37 pm

Other than assisting the SCA, are there any other productive suggestions for targeting counter productive hydro-schemes. I know there's an photography exhibition showing areas that will be effected going into a little bit of history with each area but is there anything joe public can do that's more effective than the G8 protesters flying up from London to protest against carbon emissions?


Dug if you have an issue with me, address it with me; otherwise please stop saying many people on here don't care about hydro issues as many over the years, some of whom are now missed have gone to great effort to help. If me telling you to shut you fat trap defends the hard work many have done then hey that's life. Deal with it. You have my PM, facebook, phone number etc and I'm at Ratho every day if you'd like to discuss hydro, private chats, mutual friends or this obsession with my size and manliness (or in reality lack of) any further.

Otherwise, lets all just get on, enjoy rivers, have fun and most of all have great banter...and have a nice time in Austria (in a not sarcastic way :op haha)
Lets not try to understand each other. Thanks.

User avatar
Bruce Jolliffe
Posts: 292
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2006 12:47 pm
Location: Largs, Scotland, UK.
Contact:

Re: More rivers to be lost to Hydro schemes

Post by Bruce Jolliffe » Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:01 pm

Bigbird, don't overlook the cunningly hidden scheme names. The 'Corrour Forest Hydro' is actually the Abhainn Ghuilbhinn. Add that to the to-do before no-more list. I would also suggest that if anyone wanted to support the preservation of these runs, then actually getting out and about, being visible and enjoying the variety on offer would go a great way to helping, for example, the estate that owns the lodge up there say they're unaware of anyone ever paddling the Ossian - Ghuilbinn drainage, and I/we know thats not the case, just its probably not that often.

Now, are you the Iain that kindly gave me a run up the put in on the N Esk last November when my pal left his car keys at the top in my van? If so thanks a lot, it was getting cold and dark.

Dave McCraw
Posts: 575
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:10 pm

Re: More rivers to be lost to Hydro schemes

Post by Dave McCraw » Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:28 pm

Bruce makes a good point. While I don't think you can assess the value of natural heritage based solely on it's popularity (would we demolish Aonach Eagach because it's not as easy as hitching a ride up the Ben?) it says something that the Braan, which is a straightforward run next to the A9 in the centre of the country, got only 100-ish descents in an entire year - and that's boaters, not groups.

It really may be difficult to defend rivers which are run by 0-5 people a year (or less). Why would an estate care about lost paddling if they honestly believe nobody ever paddles it?

User avatar
neilfarmer
Posts: 2076
Joined: Sun May 25, 2003 1:11 am
Location: Glasgow
Contact:

Re: More rivers to be lost to Hydro schemes

Post by neilfarmer » Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:34 am

Graeme Seggie wrote:Is this in any way related to the appearance of a dam up in Glen Douglas (Lomond side) or is that not even power generation related? Perhaps it is just to hold water for the farm nearby.

I'm not sure how long it has been there but looks quite new and the scarring on the adjacent land does too. As I have not been up there for ages until this weekend past, I wondered when it went in and what it was for. The pond behind it is very small but it may not have filled to the intended size yet if it is a new development.
It is a run-of-river hydro scheme, started being built last year, should be near to the end of the building programme now. Cant remember if there is to be a pond at the top, but even if there is, it is not enough for releases. It is the same developers that are developing the Falloch catchment scheme - all of the stations mentioned by bigbird are connected, I believe that they will all pass their water to the generating house which will return the water just above the falls of Falloch. To avoid confusion, there is another River Douglas scheme that will now be operational, just past Inveraray (also in the guidebook).
Neil Farmer.

User avatar
Strad
Posts: 1892
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:27 am
Location: The Beautiful Borders of Scotland
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 1 time
Contact:

Re: More rivers to be lost to Hydro schemes

Post by Strad » Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:19 pm

Reading this thread is rather similar to listening to my 7 year old and 9 year old having a 'discussion'

i.e. there may be some useful stuff in here somewhere, but it's rather drowned out by the 'name calling' - rather a shame when loss of rivers to what is rather ineffective hydro should be of concern to many of us...
Old School?? I miss my AQII..
Graham Stradling

User avatar
Strad
Posts: 1892
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:27 am
Location: The Beautiful Borders of Scotland
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 1 time
Contact:

Re: More rivers to be lost to Hydro schemes

Post by Strad » Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:24 pm

BTW I love this quote from that Dave Hewitt site Ryan links...
It's not on for mega-buck megawatt companies to move in and asset-strip a landscape in this way.
Old School?? I miss my AQII..
Graham Stradling

Gordon_H
Posts: 108
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:24 pm
Location: Balloch, Scotland

Re: More rivers to be lost to Hydro schemes

Post by Gordon_H » Tue Apr 27, 2010 6:25 pm

Douglas Water has a relatively recent hydro on it, in the form of a massive weir. doesnt appear to take much water away though.

Scots_Charles_River
Posts: 830
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:10 pm

Re: More rivers to be lost to Hydro schemes

Post by Scots_Charles_River » Tue Apr 27, 2010 6:52 pm

At the bottom of the Falloch just before the road flattens out there has been construction work for a while. I suppose this is what it is ?

The Scottish Agriculture College has a wee hydro dam uphill of their station between Tyndrum and Crianlarich, it does not seem to effect the flow on the Dochart above Crianlarich but generates for the farm and station. Maybe this is the compromise. Dam the tribs and leave the main rivers ?
http://www.sac.ac.uk/consulting/service ... ergy/hydro

My opinion is offhsore tidal and wind is best as it avoids damaging, forever, the hillsides and rivers and avoids visual pollution etc.

Nick

User avatar
Jim
Posts: 13933
Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2002 2:14 pm
Location: Dumbarton
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 47 times

Re: More rivers to be lost to Hydro schemes

Post by Jim » Tue Apr 27, 2010 6:57 pm

Well, I can understand Dug's point of view, last time he started a thread to try to raise support against the creeping threat of micro hydro few if any were willing to join him, and several people posted that they thought dams were a good idea because they mean guaranteed releases for paddling.

This could be a better thread since the naieve few who thought dams were good haven't picked up on it, but instead Ryan and Dug have turned it into a slagging match.

I really can't understand why - neither of them want to lose these rivers, so why can't they just kiss and make up, or have a fight to clear the air and then be friends again.

Micro hydro is very wrong but global pressure for renewable and apparantly low carbon energy is huge and we are getting overwhelmed by the cunning power companies.
Who cares how many of the SCA officers are working regularly on hydro issues - if it's 2 or 20 it's not likely to be enough to fend off every single application without help from the ordinary members - as Dug says we have to write the letters and convince the government that there are numbers against each scheme because however many members the SCA represent, one letter is easily overlooked.

How do we choose the schemes, well NIMBY is the first and most obvious route - be aware of the stuff in your vicinity and raise awareness.
The SCA have to make some objective decisions about which schemes they can afford to really fight - the Braan must have cost a lot and there simply isn't the money in the bank to fight every scheme to the same level. You can agree or disgree with the criteria used, but for goodness sake don't disagree with the fact that decisions have to be made, not unless you are an extremely wealthy benefactor able to fund every campaign.

Of course I am a hypocrite because apart from the Braan I haven't got involved with any hydro application, unfortunately the reality is that my time is limited and by the time I've added a few comments to the forums I will have wasted time I could have used to write a letter objecting to a planning application, if I wasn't on the forums, then my mind would be on something else....

Anyway, I am hoping that the new round of nuclear power investment will take some of the worst players out of the hydro market for a few years. I do know that Npower (public enemy No.1 if not river enemy No.1?) have postponed or cancelled all their offshore wind generation projects to concentrate on the much more lucrative new nuclear plants, I suspect that any unstarted hydro schemes will also be put on hold. What would be a tragedy is if incomplete schemes are stopped mid construction leaving man made hazards destroying rivers but not actually making any power from them - that would be a much bigger insult!

Jim

User avatar
Niall Milner
Posts: 302
Joined: Fri May 09, 2003 9:22 pm
Location: Biggar

Re: More rivers to be lost to Hydro schemes

Post by Niall Milner » Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:15 pm

BBC News about Osspower wrote:The company said they would have a combined generating capacity of 6.7 megawatts.
I was at a renewables seminar today, based around wind turbines.

1 x Offshore Wind Turbine = 6MW

Food for thought.......

Niall

Dave McCraw
Posts: 575
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:10 pm

Re: More rivers to be lost to Hydro schemes

Post by Dave McCraw » Wed Apr 28, 2010 9:24 am

What I want to know is, when we have a long dry summer with no wind, where's the juice going to come from? Both hydro and wind infrastructure could be offline together for sustained periods.

Don't get me wrong, I'm completely in favour in principle (and would love a house with a turbine and solar water heating) but I can't visualise how we'll actually support the country using what we're building. It's not even clear how we'd be able to take advantage of excess capacity when it is windy and rainy, because nobody will want our excess power (since their own infrastructure will have to be built to cope with slack time anyway).

Tidal has more potential, what with the moon being quite a reliable piece of kit. I wonder how much quicker we'd have it if we diverted all renewables subsidy onto practical tidal installations?

User avatar
Bruce Jolliffe
Posts: 292
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2006 12:47 pm
Location: Largs, Scotland, UK.
Contact:

Re: More rivers to be lost to Hydro schemes

Post by Bruce Jolliffe » Wed Apr 28, 2010 9:41 am

I suppose it would appear to be easy to assume that tidal predictability is the answer, but in truth like all renewables there are detractors out there with good arguments. Now I am no expert in energy, but I did think that this gents* assessment made for interesting reading, albeit worrying as I too thought tidal may be some sort of holy grail.

*Hans Van Haren, New Scientist 31 March 2010;
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg2 ... hanks.html

Personally, I'm going to come across as (at best) a crank, and (at worst) a facist, but;

The problem really is not energy demand, that's just a measure. We are losing our natural resources to the fact that we are overpopulated. Not just in the nations of this Island, but globally. Too many people. Time to wise up and wind our necks in as a race? I think so, and no amount of hydro dams, turbines or nuclear power stations is going to change that.

Sorry, slightly off-topic.

Scots_Charles_River
Posts: 830
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:10 pm

Re: More rivers to be lost to Hydro schemes

Post by Scots_Charles_River » Wed Apr 28, 2010 5:23 pm

Aluminium and other heavy industries use masses of power. INEOS down the road from me need so much power for Petrochemical (plastics and fuel) production that they have their own gas powered generating station.

Pity the new on/off Forth Bridge is not gonna be a tidal barrier/causeway like the Thames barrier.

Nick

Peter Brown
Posts: 258
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 10:59 am
Location: Glasgow

Re: More rivers to be lost to Hydro schemes

Post by Peter Brown » Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:52 pm

Jim wrote:Anyway, I am hoping that the new round of nuclear power investment will take some of the worst players out of the hydro market for a few years
New nuclear isn't going to be generating till at least 2020 so plenty of other stuff is going to get built in the mean time. Also, lots of renewables are looking good with the ROC subsidy.

User avatar
TechnoEngineer
Posts: 3352
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 7:47 pm
Location: Berks, Hants, Essex
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: More rivers to be lost to Hydro schemes

Post by TechnoEngineer » Wed Apr 28, 2010 9:47 pm

24061314 wrote:Personally, I'm going to come across as (at best) a crank, and (at worst) a facist, but;

The problem really is not energy demand, that's just a measure. We are losing our natural resources to the fact that we are overpopulated. Not just in the nations of this Island, but globally. Too many people. Time to wise up and wind our necks in as a race? I think so, and no amount of hydro dams, turbines or nuclear power stations is going to change that.
You're actually pretty spot-on, a global one-child rule for 100 years would fix most of the resource crises that are heading our way. Some people have put a *lot* of thought into this, and I sincerely hope their ideas never come to fruition (e.g. this - not for the faint hearted).
XL-Burn-3 / Monstar / XPlore-X/ My Videos

Post Reply

Return to “Whitewater and Touring”