Dartmeet kayak launch

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Ross W
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Re: Dartmeet kayak launch

Post by Ross W » Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:38 pm

As for the polished slab idea, If they are unable to do this how about just simply trying to round of the sharp edge. All options
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enb
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Re: Dartmeet kayak launch

Post by enb » Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:52 pm

Simon Westgarth wrote:
enb wrote:I will deffinatly use the get in at Point A in the future, but I do know that it is half way between the two points in the trees that we normally get in because we have plenty of time to get across the river and take the right hand channel, avoiding where the Redds are.
Last time we was up there a couple of weekends ago a friend took a few pics on his phone while we got on, I will try get hold of these images to show where I mean.
You are almost certainly paddling across the redds, its the only other option than launching at Point A to get into the main channel at the confluence.

Its difficult to tell the exact position on the map because quality is bad, but i would say that this is our rough entry and the line that we take down to the confluence, its deffinatly not down as low as point B.

Image

Here are the pictures a friend took of us getting in, as you can see in the first photo, you can just see through the trees where the island is where we take the right hand channel down to the confluence

Image

Image

And yes, before anyone says, i wear a ladies cag, because i like it (got to be different lol)

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Re: Dartmeet kayak launch

Post by TonyM » Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:32 pm

Simon Westgarth wrote:
Ross W wrote:This might be being abit "simple" but if its eroding away now... why not just dig some out and replace it with a concrete slab? Will just be like it is now... easy to get on at what ever level, yet wont erode.
That option is highly unlikely to happen in the national park. A rock bench with sloping rock slabs into the flow would be a more fitting option. I can not see the Parks going for a floating platform, it would not fit into the natural setting.
The National Park appear to have been happy with the concrete monstrosity of a new weir and fish ladder at Harford Bridge on the Tavy.

Let's hope we can have a local granite structure at Dartmeet, and that the procurement process doesn't mean its cheaper to build it out of imported granite!

A shallow launch ramp clad in granite cobbles (with the sharp quartz cheese graters knocked off) maybe ok. A ramp could cope with changing water levels. I'd see a seal launch-able ramp as desirable but not essential. Alterntively, provide a platform raised above water, forcing a seal launch may be ok. The main features are a system that doesn't endanger paddlers, the public, or cause ground erosion.

A ramp will inevitably be used by children playing in the summer so would need to accomodate their needs, and I suppose, be a reasonably even surface so as not to cause problems for those (paddlers or not) with impaired mobility. Likewise the path connecting the ramp to the road.

And finally, belated thanks to Simon for organising the meeting at RDCP a couple of weeks back - I found it very informative.

Tony

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Jim
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Re: Dartmeet kayak launch

Post by Jim » Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:01 pm

enb,
even I can see from the photo you marked up that you are crossing gravel beds as soon as you get on the water....

I'm sure you won't do it again now you know.
Well done for piping up, there are probably plenty of other people who have made the same mistake who wouldn't have learned otherwise.

As for my idea about the gauge - oops, didn't realise the bridge was before the confluence - it's been a long time since I was last on the moor, and as I say, I never did get round to running the upper. On the other hand _if_ the redds on the East Dart are the only sensitive spot it may be useful - you can see how out of touch I am with all this!

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Re: Dartmeet kayak launch

Post by Simon Westgarth » Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:35 pm

enb wrote:Here are the pictures a friend took of us getting in, as you can see in the first photo, you can just see through the trees where the island is where we take the right hand channel down to the confluence

Image

Image

And yes, before anyone says, I wear a ladies cag, because I like it (got to be different lol)
Thats 10m lower down than Point A, and clearly it works a lot like the ladies cag!!!

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Re: Dartmeet kayak launch

Post by JonFinch » Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:29 pm

Why not suggest Perflo matting which will create a solid base to prevent erosion & allow grass to grow through, in about 6 months you will only see the grass.

Its made of plastic so wont degrade & require any repairs, No damage to the base of the kayak either. The gradient is not a problem shallow or steep as it interlocks & can go into the river to prevent bed erosion, It will only require the upstream edge protecting. I can supply more details, PM if required.

Jon

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Re: Dartmeet kayak launch

Post by morsey » Tue Feb 02, 2010 5:39 pm

No concrete please. A few well placed locally sourced rocks should do the trick (and be maintenance free) and leave it looking as natural as possible.

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Re: Dartmeet kayak launch

Post by enb » Tue Feb 02, 2010 6:56 pm

Jim wrote:enb,
I'm sure you won't do it again now you know.
Well done for piping up, there are probably plenty of other people who have made the same mistake who wouldn't have learned otherwise.
I knew from reading the thread that i was getting on in the wrong place, which is why i have highlighted where my normal put in is, becuase im sure there are others that are using this spot too thinking that it is ok as you can get across the river and down the right hand channel well above point B.
Atleast now I will know for the furture to get on next to the bridge and hopefully others that may see this thread (but look at point B on the map shown and think they are ok because they arent getting on that far down) will now also realise that the only place to get on is point A and not point B or anywhere inbetween.

Having some kind of fixed access point will be a very good thing as it will indicate to everyone getting on that it is the designated launch point, but i agree with everyone that it needs to be environmentally sensitive to the surroundings and just a slab of concreate slope simply wont do as it will be an eyesore.

Maybe an option could be to try and blend a slope into the bridge so that it looks like it is part of it, this would be less intrusive because it would be made out of the same stone work as the bridge and over time would weather to look like its always been a part of the structure.

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Re: Dartmeet kayak launch

Post by chyavan » Tue Feb 02, 2010 7:25 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcHB4vDGuiM
Like this :)

BIt less bumpy and maybe bit of drop at the end ?

It doesnt scratch your boat and is good fun :)

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Re: Dartmeet kayak launch

Post by dwbald » Tue Feb 02, 2010 7:29 pm

Just my tupence. Why not have the put in on the upstream side of the bridge?

Avoiding the need to cross the road.
Also there is a path already there less work to do hence cheaper.

Not brilliant in low level as getting to the right side into flow is a bit of a pinball session.
And release pressel...
Cheers Dave B

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Re: Dartmeet kayak launch

Post by Simon Westgarth » Fri Feb 05, 2010 3:08 pm

dwbald wrote:Just my tupence. Why not have the put in on the upstream side of the bridge?

Avoiding the need to cross the road.
Also there is a path already there less work to do hence cheaper.

Not brilliant in low level as getting to the right side into flow is a bit of a pinball session.
The issue at medium to low water, is that on the river right channel there are a few sharp rocks that are quite uninviting to get in that upstream again. During high water conditions, you float well above the problem.

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Re: Dartmeet kayak launch

Post by Simon Westgarth » Fri Feb 05, 2010 3:25 pm

Yesterday morning, I met the Mike from the EA and Toby from DNPA at Dartmeet. Toby indicated what is practically possible, in terms of what can and can not be moved, and Mike was there to ensure any conservation concerns were addressed. My input was to give an idea of what kayakers look for when wishing to launch, and what solutions would be useful for paddlers.

After 20 minutes or so, we agreed to shape the launch area in an arc, to mirror the current bank profile so a small group of paddlers could get on together at the same time. Several of the rocks that are currently in the eddy, will be moved just down stream to make the eddy deeper, and more formed. The actual bank profile will be lined with the in situ or close by river rocks, and angled at 30° or so. These sloping rocks will be capped with flat rocks to ensure that bank erosion is limited. It was noted that smoother rocks will be used where possible. The budget for this project is quite small, so any grand ideas are not likely to go ahead. Work will go be done in early March, and there will also be a re-enforced path from the road to the launch eddy. Furthermore the lower potential putin, that Ross called Point B, will be blocked off with some large boulders to further encourage paddlers to use the upstream launch area.

I will not be around to enjoy enhanced facility in March nor over the Summer, so when its all in place, take a few pictures and post it here.

Cheers

Simon Westgarth

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Re: Dartmeet kayak launch

Post by Randy Fandango » Fri Feb 05, 2010 3:35 pm

Nice one Simon -- that sounds excellent.
Now all I need is to think of a really really good reason to get down to Devon so I can try this out once its in place....
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Re: Dartmeet kayak launch

Post by buck197 » Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:39 pm

To save costs and show willing do they need "labourers" to assist them?? If it was a weekend I'm sure a working party could be summoned from local paddlers?
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Re: Dartmeet kayak launch

Post by Adrian Cooper » Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:58 pm

Only holders of CSCS Cards (Construction Skills Certification Scheme). CRB not a requirement unless you bring your kids along. :-)

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Re: Dartmeet kayak launch

Post by Adrian Shanahan » Fri Feb 05, 2010 6:15 pm

Adrian Cooper wrote:Only holders of CSCS Cards (Construction Skills Certification Scheme). CRB not a requirement unless you bring your kids along. :-)

CSCS cards are only required for specialist tradeds and operation of certain equipent such as Telescopic Handler / Banks Man etc. While having taken part on a manual handeling course is not a legal requirement it is "suggested" that all labours do one.

I'd say though that the local paddling comunity would have a wealth of skills and tallent that could make a project such as this very cost effictive. Once managed in the correct way mind you.

A

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Re: Dartmeet kayak launch

Post by Adrian Cooper » Fri Feb 05, 2010 6:26 pm

Sorry Adrian, there isn't a convenient 'sarcasm' smilie.

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Re: Dartmeet kayak launch

Post by Adrian Shanahan » Fri Feb 05, 2010 6:49 pm

Ha ha ha ha

I know you views on the CRB Adrian, I'd be with you... just discount my last message to being pedantic.... :~)

A

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Re: Dartmeet kayak launch

Post by jamesl2play » Fri Feb 05, 2010 9:05 pm

I have a mini digger and a ticket to operate it. Will cost someone a days paddling to show me the Loop cos I havn't paddled it yet.

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Re: Dartmeet kayak launch

Post by buck197 » Fri Feb 05, 2010 9:26 pm

James if you are required to help I'll show you the Loop and even if you're not required more than happy to show you the Loop (PM me).
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Re: Dartmeet kayak launch

Post by Swampthing » Tue Feb 09, 2010 7:55 pm

A long, shallow angle ramp with low friction rollers, like upturned skateboard trucks. We'd get up enough speed to plane over to the other side :-)
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Re: Dartmeet kayak launch

Post by ssmith184 » Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:00 pm

Is it just me or does anybody else keep seeing "Dartmeet kayak LUNCH"? ;-) (Badger's Holt pensioner's special mmmm)

(Brilliant work Simon, with your [and many others] efforts the Dart is turning into a model example of paddlers & others getting along on the river!)

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Re: Dartmeet kayak launch

Post by JohnAllan » Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:56 pm

Later on this week, I will attend a site meeting for the construction of a kayak launch at Dartmeet, just downstream of the road bridge on river left. The EA proposed the project, DNPA will undertake the work and the project itself is likely to be funded by a major kayak and equipment manufacturer. Part of the EA's motives to oversee this project, is to ensure that paddlers get in and cross to the river right channel, so to avoid the redds 100m downstream of the road bridge on river left at Dartmeet, plus the amount of bank erosion this season alone will mean that the bank over several paddling season its likely to be eroded.

So you yourselves, what style of launch would you like to see?, a 5m ski jump is of cause preferred but unlikely to happen, so sensible suggestions please?
(Sorry Simon but)
I would like it to be left completely alone. The best part about Dartmeet is it's completely unspoilt and free of artifical features. A little bit of mud on the river bank hardly causes a bit erosion issue and so what if it does! A little bit of mud is a natural consequence of natural useage. It's so much more preferable than somethign artificial.

Sorry, to dampen everything, but this is exactly what's NOT needed. It's a natural river and the last thing I would want to see is an artificial launch point. There is a perfectly good place to launch by the car park with stones that don't get eroded at all.
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Re: Dartmeet kayak launch

Post by JohnAllan » Sun Feb 14, 2010 12:08 am

No concrete please. A few well placed locally sourced rocks should do the trick (and be maintenance free) and leave it looking as natural as possible.
Well said!

A ramp also excludes getting on with your boat floating. I know we have plastic boats, but I still prefer to get in to my boat in the correct way with the boat floating the way I was taught by my Parents! If you place a ramp I'll certainly be unlikely to use and stick to getting in in the carpark or either side of it on some soft grass if I'm forced to comply with getting in down there.

The carpark launch points do NOT appear to affect the redds since they are deep water and as long as you get in to the boat floating then I can't see the problem with launching there. If we all did that there wouldn't be any need to spoil the landscape at all. It means that you avoid all the shallow pools furher down.
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Re: Dartmeet kayak launch

Post by jmmoxon » Sun Feb 14, 2010 8:10 am

Um, the granite blocks where you are launching (along the East Dart beside the car park) are man-made. The "ramp" will be the same Dartmoor granite. The reason this is being done is to stop paddlers launching directly on to the redds further downstream by making it easier to get on by the bridge.

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Re: Dartmeet kayak launch

Post by Simon Westgarth » Sun Feb 14, 2010 8:49 am

JohnAllan wrote:
Later on this week, I will attend a site meeting for the construction of a kayak launch at Dartmeet, just downstream of the road bridge on river left. The EA proposed the project, DNPA will undertake the work and the project itself is likely to be funded by a major kayak and equipment manufacturer. Part of the EA's motives to oversee this project, is to ensure that paddlers get in and cross to the river right channel, so to avoid the redds 100m downstream of the road bridge on river left at Dartmeet, plus the amount of bank erosion this season alone will mean that the bank over several paddling season its likely to be eroded.

So you yourselves, what style of launch would you like to see?, a 5m ski jump is of cause preferred but unlikely to happen, so sensible suggestions please?
(Sorry Simon but)
I would like it to be left completely alone. The best part about Dartmeet is it's completely unspoilt and free of artifical features. A little bit of mud on the river bank hardly causes a bit erosion issue and so what if it does! A little bit of mud is a natural consequence of natural useage. It's so much more preferable than somethign artificial.

Sorry, to dampen everything, but this is exactly what's NOT needed. It's a natural river and the last thing I would want to see is an artificial launch point. There is a perfectly good place to launch by the car park with stones that don't get eroded at all.
John, you are a month too late to add to this processes. However, I do not agree, as the bank erosion from this Winter alone is significant. Plus the EA's motives are to stop paddlers putin on the spawning redds. At all the other kayak access points there has been various bed support works undertaken to avoid any erosion issues.

I agree that there is a launch place by the car park, but at lower water its a long way form ideal, plus a larger group can not launch at the same time together, and there are a few sharper rocks by the clapper bridge that could break boats.

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Re: Dartmeet kayak launch

Post by Simon » Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:07 am

JohnAllan wrote:(Sorry Simon but)
I would like it to be left completely alone. The best part about Dartmeet is it's completely unspoilt and free of artifical features. A little bit of mud on the river bank hardly causes a bit erosion issue and so what if it does! A little bit of mud is a natural consequence of natural useage. It's so much more preferable than somethign artificial.

Sorry, to dampen everything, but this is exactly what's NOT needed. It's a natural river and the last thing I would want to see is an artificial launch point. There is a perfectly good place to launch by the car park with stones that don't get eroded at all.
John

I sympathise with your intention but I can't agree with you. Virtually everything at Dartmeet is man made or man managed. Even the "natural" moorland landscape we all love is man made with the open moorland carefully stabilised through careful control of sheep and cattle grazing. If mankind was not in control it would be forest.

When I got involved in recreation management many years ago I could not believe the amount of expertise, manpower (paid and voluntary) cost (government and charity) engineering (fencing, pathmaking, drainage) countryside management (stock control, planting of "native" trees and plants, deer culling) etc, etc involved in keeping our countryside "natural" and "untouched by humankind".

One person launching on a river bank will cause virtually no damage. 40 people a day for a full season WILL cause erosion. The least worst option is to manage it carefully and sympathetically in the same way that badly eroded footpaths are routinely stabilised with granite slabs all over Dartmoor. I remember those badly eroded paths from decades back (Pennine Way??) and fully support these new stabilisation measures. It is a mark of the success of the footpath project that 99% of the walkers on those paths nowadays probably don't even realise or think about the cost and labour involved in creating those granite walkways, whereas twenty years back the very idea of doing it caused outrage and opposition, with people using arguments similar to yours. In 12 months most paddlers will use the new launchpoint and avoid erosion without even realising that the launch point is a recent man made structure.

Simon

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Re: Dartmeet kayak launch

Post by Adrian Cooper » Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:31 pm

Simon wrote:If mankind was not in control it would be forest.
That might spark yet another debate.

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Re: Dartmeet kayak launch

Post by John Saunders » Fri Mar 05, 2010 5:59 pm

Simon wrote:Virtually everything at Dartmeet is man made or man managed. Even the "natural" moorland landscape we all love is man made with the open moorland carefully stabilised through careful control of sheep and cattle grazing. If mankind was not in control it would be forest.
Above Dartmeet yesterday:
Image

Meanwhile, down in the valley...

Construction work on the ramp...
Image

...and protection work for the downstream redds.
Image

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Re: Dartmeet kayak launch

Post by Simon Westgarth » Fri Mar 05, 2010 7:02 pm

Looking good so far

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