Whistles

Inland paddling
User avatar
Westy
Posts: 530
Joined: Thu May 12, 2005 10:36 am
Location: West Sussex and Nottingham
Contact:

Re: Whistles

Post by Westy »

Simon Westgarth wrote:
Westy wrote:Astral river vests have had them inbuilt for some time, as part of a clip at the front.
Which basically could not attract the attention of someone 2 feet away in a small quiet doctors waiting room.
Try blowing harder!

User avatar
Simon Westgarth
Posts: 6567
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2004 5:05 pm
Location: Øyer in Norway
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 8 times
Contact:

Re: Whistles

Post by Simon Westgarth »

Westy wrote:
Simon Westgarth wrote:
Westy wrote:Astral river vests have had them inbuilt for some time, as part of a clip at the front.
Which basically could not attract the attention of someone 2 feet away in a small quiet doctors waiting room.
Try blowing harder!
Ha ha. Most rucsac makers use the noviety little whistle on the chest strap, as I am sure it seams like a good idea, yet the whistle in question, which is also the same as on the Astral pfd is ineffective to attact attention. The one on the new Palm is better, but it's no Fox 40.

User avatar
pwilkinson
Posts: 422
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 7:29 pm
Contact:

Re: Whistles

Post by pwilkinson »

whitey123 wrote:ive just baught a karrimore one that reaches 180db for £1.50, cant complain for so little money, and you never know when your gona need one
I find 180dB hard to believe as a Jet taking off is only about 120dB and the scale is logarithmic, so the whistle would louder than being surrounded by several Apollo rockets taking off at close range!

User avatar
Kai_the_Hodge
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 9:24 pm
Location: Bedfordshire

Re: Whistles

Post by Kai_the_Hodge »

I carry a whistle and do use it it specially on blind drops (to call down the next boat). However i have had an indecent where a moron holiday walker heard it, ran around for five minutes looking for us ( didn't consider we may be in the gully that he had come to be touristy at) then promptly rang mountain rescue to say he was hearing a distress signal but couldn't find the victim.. Needless to say it went down hill from there.
I'm not saying we shouldn't use whistles, they are certainly a useful bit of kit, but in places where paddlers and walkers mix, i can see how problems could arise your average weekend tourist just thinks a whistle on the fells is for emergencies only, and therefor takes the appropriate (or not) action.
Also its worth considering that piercing whistles are disruptive to the other river and bank users, many of whom already have the opinion that all we do is, destroy fish eggs, wreck the banks and generally get in the way of the nice touristy photo's)
With this in mind i only tend to use it if ...
there is no real viable option or im somewhere its really not going to bother anybody

AHPP
Posts: 296
Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:55 am
Location: Sunderland and Sudbury

Re: Whistles

Post by AHPP »

Kai_the_Hodge wrote:I carry a whistle and do use it it specially on blind drops (to call down the next boat). However I have had an indecent where a moron holiday walker heard it, ran around for five minutes looking for us ( didn't consider we may be in the gully that he had come to be touristy at) then promptly rang mountain rescue to say he was hearing a distress signal but couldn't find the victim.. Needless to say it went down hill from there.
I'm not saying we shouldn't use whistles, they are certainly a useful bit of kit, but in places where paddlers and walkers mix, I can see how problems could arise your average weekend tourist just thinks a whistle on the fells is for emergencies only, and therefor takes the appropriate (or not) action.
Also its worth considering that piercing whistles are disruptive to the other river and bank users, many of whom already have the opinion that all we do is, destroy fish eggs, wreck the banks and generally get in the way of the nice touristy photo's)
With this in mind I only tend to use it if ...
there is no real viable option or im somewhere its really not going to bother anybody
Two things:
1) Moron is a bit harsh. How about concerned or well meaning?
2) Is someone who drives from home to enjoy a place with mountains and rivers not a tourist?

User avatar
Kai_the_Hodge
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 9:24 pm
Location: Bedfordshire

Re: Whistles

Post by Kai_the_Hodge »

Ok maybe moron is harsh, but we were literally below him, and my points still stands tourist or not. Not enough people using the environment are aware of the uses of whistles regarding paddlers, therefore we need to be aware of when / where we use whistles as a signal method and the disruption to other peoples using the environment be that through there "concerns" over a injured person or just disturbance to there enjoyment.
( the only saving grace about the whole issue is that three of my fellow paddlers were in the MR team and got the page to rescue themselves)

And as for Weekend tourist, i use the term to mean that your average once a year holiday walker believes that a whistle instantly means trouble, where as someone who walks/ climbs or paddles as a hobby should as part of this hobby be aware that different whistle signals can mean different things. its not derogatory just a method to distinguish between user groups.

Rdscott
Posts: 1209
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:53 pm
Location: Huddersfield

Re: Whistles

Post by Rdscott »

Simon Westgarth wrote:
Ha ha. Most rucsac makers use the noviety little whistle on the chest strap, as I am sure it seams like a good idea, yet the whistle in question, which is also the same as on the Astral pfd is ineffective to attact attention. The one on the new Palm is better, but it's no Fox 40.
There is a trick to the the clip whistles, Blew really hard and cover the tiny hole in the back up.

This works for me. the wistle isn't mega loud but they are high pitched so the sound travels further. due to its frequency not dispersing as much.
pwilkinson wrote:
I find 180dB hard to believe as a Jet taking off is only about 120dB and the scale is logarithmic, so the whistle would louder than being surrounded by several Apollo rockets taking off at close range!
Pwilknoson i may be wrong but as i mentioned above its not always about the (loudness) strength of the sound? but more about the pitch. We have a full dj set for house parrties untill we got shut down that would easily break the 120db marking on a db reader and you could deffinatly hear whistles over this.

as i say i may be wrong im no sound engeneer.

But back to the main topic, I carry a whistle when ever i am participatin in sports outdoors, nothing fancy just a little plastic orange thing. I find that if i use this in a coaching enviroment the studes tend to find this a little rude and i personaly feel if i am having to use a whistle to gain there attention i havnt done my job right or am not doing it right. i tend to keep my groups in close proximity so we can comunicate clearly then use clear river signals after this.

Unfortunatly its not just whistles that cause the mountain rescue to be called out it can be anything, mistakes happen, we were climbing at gimmer in the evening and shouting signals to each other, the sound traveld to the ODG in lang dale where they though someone was calling for assistance resulting in a unneccisery call out. So its not just "morron" tourists, but very well prepared and active local who it may effect.

Use what tools you can to coach and make your decisions on an educated basis, but a whistle can be a much needed tool.

User avatar
Kai_the_Hodge
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 9:24 pm
Location: Bedfordshire

Re: Whistles

Post by Kai_the_Hodge »

Rdscott wrote:
Simon Westgarth wrote:
Unfortunatly its not just whistles that cause the mountain rescue to be called out it can be anything, mistakes happen, we were climbing at gimmer in the evening and shouting signals to each other, the sound traveld to the ODG in lang dale where they though someone was calling for assistance resulting in a unneccisery call out. So its not just "morron" tourists, but very well prepared and active local who it may effect.

Use what tools you can to coach and make your decisions on an educated basis, but a whistle can be a much needed tool.
I agree completely, A whistle is a much needed tool and that it isn't the only thing that causes unnecessary call outs, However i will say the same about shouting signals on the river as i do about whistles, you need to be aware of where you are and the other users of the river environment. If your in a Tourist hot spot, where other peoples are trying to enjoy the views/ Walk tranquility etc etc, maybe whistles or shouting are an inappropriate method of communication for that environment. The last thing we need is for people to go home saying something like " bloody paddlers running around shouting, scaring the wild life etc etc"

User avatar
Jim
Posts: 14089
Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2002 2:14 pm
Location: Dumbarton
Has thanked: 19 times
Been thanked: 69 times

Re: Whistles

Post by Jim »

Kai_the_Hodge wrote:And as for Weekend tourist, I use the term to mean that your average once a year holiday walker believes that a whistle instantly means trouble, where as someone who walks/ climbs or paddles as a hobby should as part of this hobby be aware that different whistle signals can mean different things. its not derogatory just a method to distinguish between user groups.
I would disagree. The annual hiker is more likely to be unaware of things developing around them in the hills and ignore the whistle assuming it to be people disturbing the peace, whilst the regular hiker is more likely to be tuned in to his environment and quicker to associate a whistle with an emergency signal.

And you did mean it in a derogatory way however much you try to backpedal. Almost all of us do it, it seems to be part of human nature to view occasional tourists as somehow inferior to regular outdoor enthusiasts, even if when we think about there really isn't any justification for the viewpoint. I do it myself, don't really believe in it but can't help myself.

clarky999
Posts: 2883
Joined: Thu Nov 23, 2006 11:42 pm
Location: Innsbruck, Austria
Been thanked: 2 times
Contact:

Re: Whistles

Post by clarky999 »

pwilkinson wrote:
whitey123 wrote:ive just baught a karrimore one that reaches 180db for £1.50, cant complain for so little money, and you never know when your gona need one
I find 180dB hard to believe as a Jet taking off is only about 120dB and the scale is logarithmic, so the whistle would louder than being surrounded by several Apollo rockets taking off at close range!
I just bought a new 'safety' whistle today ahving lost my old onw, the packaging says it reaches 118 decibels. Tbh I don't really know how decibels are calculated, is it maybe to do with frequency of the (sound) waves as well as jsut volume?

User avatar
TheKrikkitWars
Posts: 5809
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:44 pm
Location: Sheffield

Re: Whistles

Post by TheKrikkitWars »

Decibels are a measure of Unit Intensity; rather than sound in particular, it has to be standardised to a certain sound pressure at 0dB; for instance "118 dB (relative to 0dB of 2×10^−5 Pa @ 1kHz*)" is useful but just 118dB on its own simply means it's 630957344480 times louder than some (presumably) very quiet unknown event.

*A prize to the first person who knows why I chose that reference!
ONE BLADE, ONE LOVE, [TOO] MANY PIES


Joshua Kelly

Rdscott
Posts: 1209
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:53 pm
Location: Huddersfield

Re: Whistles

Post by Rdscott »

Josh whats the prize

Im sure it is the presure diviation caused by a ambiant sound wave in an avarage equalibrium.

dont ask me what the avarage equalibrium is as i turned off in that physics lesson and every one after it.

User avatar
TheKrikkitWars
Posts: 5809
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:44 pm
Location: Sheffield

Re: Whistles

Post by TheKrikkitWars »

Rdscott wrote:Josh whats the prize

Im sure it is the presure diviation caused by a ambiant sound wave in an avarage equalibrium.

dont ask me what the avarage equalibrium is as I turned off in that physics lesson and every one after it.
I haven't decided, and Nope much simpler.
ONE BLADE, ONE LOVE, [TOO] MANY PIES


Joshua Kelly

Rdscott
Posts: 1209
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:53 pm
Location: Huddersfield

Re: Whistles

Post by Rdscott »

Well it is that anyway, i just looked it up wow i feel like university killed my school brain.

Is it the output of your (new) speakers

I Want a prize 2010 so far has been rubbish.

User avatar
TheKrikkitWars
Posts: 5809
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:44 pm
Location: Sheffield

Re: Whistles

Post by TheKrikkitWars »

20 μPa is the limit of human hearing at the specified 1kHz
ONE BLADE, ONE LOVE, [TOO] MANY PIES


Joshua Kelly

User avatar
Jim
Posts: 14089
Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2002 2:14 pm
Location: Dumbarton
Has thanked: 19 times
Been thanked: 69 times

Re: Whistles

Post by Jim »

TheKrikkitWars wrote:20 μPa is the limit of human hearing at the specified 1kHz
So is that the standard reference pressure that is used for noise readings then Josh?
I know that dB are a measure of sound pressure and I'm pretty sure that the meter is A-scale for statutory noise limits, and I'm pretty sure that wherever airborne noise output is specified it is on the same scale. Another important factor is how far from the source you measure the sound, I think that is logarithmic also.

Anyway the limit of human hearing is a dodgy reference, human hearing changes as we get older and for other reasons.
I did an ultrasonics course last month and one of the standard exam questions relates to the practical range of human hearing, and do you know what, I've already forgotten the answer! Just goes to prove the value of exams, I dropped one question in 40 (definitely not that one) and a month later I've aready forgotten half of the theory details!

Anyway, the point about how loud a whistle may be - for every 6dB increase the sound intensity will double, you pass the legal exposure limit (for a workplace) in the 80's, the loudest officially recorded rock band is Kiss at 136dB in 2009 but most really loud things are under 120dB.
For a whistle 118dB looks like a realistic value, 180dB would be over a thousand times louder.....
And I am of course assuming all the above are measured on the A scale.

The pitch doesn't really have anything to do with loudness, but since sound is a spectrum it is relevant. Dog whistles are set to a pitch beyond human hearing - they may be loud but they are in a range we can't hear. Depending on the pitch that an emergency whistle makes, it may fall in a region in which a particular individual has reduced hearing for some reason (possibly just age) so they may have a different perception of loudness compared to others. I passed my last hearing test although I have no idea why, I have trouble hearing a lot of frequencies but obviously still had the ones considered important for work.

Not sure if this all relevant but I reckon someone got 118dB and 180dB mixed up somewhere, easily done, but not easily done.

User avatar
Kev W
Posts: 542
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:26 am
Location: Stoke-on-Trent

Re: Whistles

Post by Kev W »

A few years ago when paddling the Lune we heard the continous blowing of whistles which obviously got our attention, just as well as there was a tree down in the river which blocked most of it!

User avatar
Tom_Laws
Posts: 8122
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 8:37 am
Location: North Wales
Been thanked: 1 time
Contact:

Re: Whistles

Post by Tom_Laws »

TheKrikkitWars wrote:Decibels are a measure of Unit Intensity; rather than sound in particular, it has to be standardised to a certain sound pressure at 0dB; for instance "118 dB (relative to 0dB of 2×10^−5 Pa @ 1kHz*)" is useful but just 118dB on its own simply means it's 630957344480 times louder than some (presumably) very quiet unknown event.

*A prize to the first person who knows why I chose that reference!

Glad to see you had a productive weekend Josh. You missed an excellent weekend of social and snow paddling.

Post Reply

Return to “Whitewater and Touring”