In 15 years of boating I have never needed to do a Z-Drag...

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kevinf
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In 15 years of boating I have never needed to do a Z-Drag...

Post by kevinf »

until I did.....under pressure....

Please learn

Please practice

Please carry a pin kit......not in your boat, but on your person.

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Re: In 15 years of boating I have never needed to do a Z-Drag...

Post by buck197 »

Kevin unless its a sensitive tale can you expand but agree all WWSR skills need practice, as when they are needed they should be slick and correctly administered.
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Elements
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Re: In 15 years of boating I have never needed to do a Z-Drag...

Post by Elements »

Kevin, I couldn't agree more. Well said.

To everyone, please.....
Practice your rescue skills
Carry a pin kit on your person
Chat & practice with your boating mates about the what ifs
Always review your kit, don't carry to much.... but make sure you have more than enough!!

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Re: In 15 years of boating I have never needed to do a Z-Drag...

Post by Adrian Cooper »

I definitely agree with the sentiment

And if you can store it all away, learn a pig rig, it needs two ropes but allows you to work much further away if you need to. Three krabs, two prussiks, anyone can carry them on their person.



Practice this whilst your mates are running the shuttle.

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kevinf
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Re: In 15 years of boating I have never needed to do a Z-Drag...

Post by kevinf »

I don't want to link this thread to a particular incident but to just serve as a reminder that sometimes things go wrong in places that you don't expect and often under conditions that are less than ideal...... When you have to react you might find that you have much less time than you may have anticipated. Every second counts.

Remember that just because you've never needed to use a certain piece of equipment, skill or technique that it should be allowed to become stale or redundant.

Learn Rescue techniques
Learn First Aid procedures
Always carry appropriate rescue, first aid and survival equipment.

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Re: In 15 years of boating I have never needed to do a Z-Drag...

Post by John Kennedy »

Or join a club, and teach it. That keeps me in practice a lot more than just doing drills by myself, plus you get the added benefit of passing on the knowledge.
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Re: In 15 years of boating I have never needed to do a Z-Drag...

Post by Simon Westgarth »

Elements wrote:Carry a pin kit on your person!
A word of caution, before everyone thinks it is effective to carry 2 locking crabs, 2 prusiks, 2 pullies and a sling in their BA pocket to create a Z Drag, as it is not. You can make a pigrig from tying a no knot as an anchor, then with a single tied sling make a prusik plus crab. Then with an untied sling and another crab make the pigrig. All these items:
throw bag
tied sling & crab
untied sling & crab

can all be carried on the paddler and would be both weight and space efficient. By a means carry another prusik, a pulley and another crab in the boat. Why no Z drag, it's gear and rope hungry, and in most rescues it's about quick decisions and prompt action. Plus you best practise too.......

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Re: In 15 years of boating I have never needed to do a Z-Drag...

Post by Chas C »

Simon Westgarth wrote: throw bag
tied sling & crab
untied sling & crab
Anyone know where creating a Z drag with these is shown ?, I would normally have the other kit in my boat, but I could carry the above on my person (only need to add the second sling and extra crab).

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Re: In 15 years of boating I have never needed to do a Z-Drag...

Post by Simon Westgarth »

Chas C wrote:
Simon Westgarth wrote: throw bag
tied sling & crab
untied sling & crab
Anyone know where creating a Z drag with these is shown ?, I would normally have the other kit in my boat, but I could carry the above on my person (only need to add the second sling and extra crab).
It's not the gear list for a Z drag, but a pigrig.

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Re: In 15 years of boating I have never needed to do a Z-Drag...

Post by Myles »

Nick posted a picture of a basic pig rig setup in an old topic here

Edit: I imagine the prussik in the picture could be replaced with a tied sling in an emergency?
Last edited by Myles on Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: In 15 years of boating I have never needed to do a Z-Drag...

Post by Chas C »

Cheer's Simon - for those who need a reminder (like me), its all detailed in here http://www.ukriversguidebook.co.uk/foru ... hp?t=44359

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Re: In 15 years of boating I have never needed to do a Z-Drag...

Post by Ricks-Freestyle-Mind »

You can cut the list down even more from Simons lot. Take away another sling which you would use for a prusik, tie an over hand knot, clip a crab through that. Mke sure there is no tension in the rope when trying to tie the over hand knot. This could save a few extra seconds.

Theres a useful diagram at the botom of this page.

http://nocpaddlingschool.blogspot.com/2 ... -drag.html

A locking echanism can be created using two Karabineers at the anchor point by the tree. This is paticularly useful when you'll be pulling agaisnt the current. This takes a few more seconds to set up and an extra crab is needed.

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Re: In 15 years of boating I have never needed to do a Z-Drag...

Post by Ian W »

Ricks-Freestyle-Mind wrote:
A locking mechanism can be created using two Karabineers at the anchor point by the tree. This is paticularly useful when you'll be pulling agaisnt the current. This takes a few more seconds to set up and an extra crab is needed.
It sounds like you are describing an Alpine clutch
http://www.chockstone.org/techtips/GardaHitch.htm

If you are, I would strongly advise against using this (i.e don't do it!), the reason being it is not releasable under load. Far better to use an Italian hitch or a wrap around a tree or krab that can be released under load.

Ian

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Re: In 15 years of boating I have never needed to do a Z-Drag...

Post by enb »

I know very little about WWSR and will deffinatly be getting myself on a course in the new year.

Image

Just found this if its of any help.

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Re: In 15 years of boating I have never needed to do a Z-Drag...

Post by Ricks-Freestyle-Mind »

Ian W wrote:
Ricks-Freestyle-Mind wrote:
A locking mechanism can be created using two Karabineers at the anchor point by the tree. This is paticularly useful when you'll be pulling agaisnt the current. This takes a few more seconds to set up and an extra crab is needed.
It sounds like you are describing an Alpine clutch
http://www.chockstone.org/techtips/GardaHitch.htm

If you are, I would strongly advise against using this (i.e don't do it!), the reason being it is not releasable under load. Far better to use an Italian hitch or a wrap around a tree or krab that can be released under load.

Ian
Yeah I hear what your saying and know the pros and cons of the clutch, but in some circumstances, I wouldn't want it to release! Italian hitch works, but I have found it causes more friction from my own experience.

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Re: In 15 years of boating I have never needed to do a Z-Drag...

Post by Simon Westgarth »

enb wrote:Image
To be more efficient, fortget the knot on the no knot anchor, it breaks the clean line principal, plus then you can take in the slack from the pigrig, thus no second sling with a prusik is needed. Instead of rope used as the pigrig, you can use a sling, this gives less friction, and thus no pullies are required. There is no need to tie a knot in the end of the pigrig rope as well. In most boat extractions, the boat normally needs to be move 10-30cms, so there is little need for any additional slack rope belay, however, if its going to be a long haul you may wish to add one into your system.
enb wrote:I know very little about WWSR and will deffinatly be getting myself on a course in the new year.
I can recommend a company what has a lot of experience on the river, and a vast amount of in house expertise, but that would be an advert, so hit the top link below.......

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Re: In 15 years of boating I have never needed to do a Z-Drag...

Post by Simon Westgarth »

Ricks-Freestyle-Mind wrote:You can cut the list down even more from Simons lot. Take away another sling which you would use for a prusik, tie an over hand knot, clip a crab through that. Mke sure there is no tension in the rope when trying to tie the over hand knot. This could save a few extra seconds.
In most cases for boat extraction, you only need to move the boat 10-30cms to get it off a pin, thus the knot and crab is an ok option if its a small distance to move the boat, but what happens if you need to reset the pigrig? Its a restricted options, so a single prussik is better by simply being more flexible.

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Re: In 15 years of boating I have never needed to do a Z-Drag...

Post by Ricks-Freestyle-Mind »

Simon Westgarth wrote:
Ricks-Freestyle-Mind wrote:You can cut the list down even more from Simons lot. Take away another sling which you would use for a prusik, tie an over hand knot, clip a crab through that. Mke sure there is no tension in the rope when trying to tie the over hand knot. This could save a few extra seconds.
In most cases for boat extraction, you only need to move the boat 10-30cms to get it off a pin, thus the knot and crab is an ok option if its a small distance to move the boat, but what happens if you need to reset the pigrig? Its a restricted options, so a single prussik is better by simply being more flexible.
Agree with you again Simon plus the knot breaks the clean line principle. The prussik is more flexible, just using the knot cut the list down again. A prusik takes up little space in the Bouyancyaid.

Going back to the knot, there was a knot I was shown on my very first WWSR course which undid easily and didn't break the clean line prinicple as when the crab was taken out, the knot would undo. Very easy and quick to tie, quicker than a prusik and fairly easily moved up or down the rope, not as easy as a prucik though.

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Re: In 15 years of boating I have never needed to do a Z-Drag...

Post by garya »

Ricks-Freestyle-Mind wrote:
Simon Westgarth wrote:
Ricks-Freestyle-Mind wrote:You can cut the list down even more from Simons lot. Take away another sling which you would use for a prusik, tie an over hand knot, clip a crab through that. Mke sure there is no tension in the rope when trying to tie the over hand knot. This could save a few extra seconds.
In most cases for boat extraction, you only need to move the boat 10-30cms to get it off a pin, thus the knot and crab is an ok option if its a small distance to move the boat, but what happens if you need to reset the pigrig? Its a restricted options, so a single prussik is better by simply being more flexible.
Agree with you again Simon plus the knot breaks the clean line principle. The prussik is more flexible, just using the knot cut the list down again. A prusik takes up little space in the Bouyancyaid.

Going back to the knot, there was a knot I was shown on my very first WWSR course which undid easily and didn't break the clean line prinicple as when the crab was taken out, the knot would undo. Very easy and quick to tie, quicker than a prusik and fairly easily moved up or down the rope, not as easy as a prucik though.

A clove hitch ??

Gary A

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Re: In 15 years of boating I have never needed to do a Z-Drag...

Post by Jim »

Also test your system with a suitable load on it. Some combinations of throwline and prusik just don't grip well, and you need to know and get kit that will work together before you need it for real. This is where it is useful to have a 25m, 10 or 12mm rescue line in the group, or maybe a couple, they are much more reliable than most 6 or 8mm throwlines.

At which point I am going to admit that it has been years since I practised any kind of hauling and I already know that I have lost 1 if not both of the prusik loops I made up especially to work with my throwline after my original ones slipped trying to retrieve a boat from the Tees. I really must sort that out before I go away at new year.

Maybe a good idea to find a diagram of the simplest (least kit required) rig, print off about credit card sized and laminate to keep in the bag/pocket with your pin kit?

Simon do you have such a diagram? I've always used basically Z-drag based systems which can take an age to set up.

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Re: In 15 years of boating I have never needed to do a Z-Drag...

Post by Ross W »

The blue tape that you can get by the meter can slip though crabs easy as simon has said, thus eliminating the need for pullys.

I found that the astra aqua vest had ample space to fit the following:
2 crabs behind the center pocket,
1 pully in pocket,
1 prusics in same pocket.
1 tape in same pocket
5meters of tape in the pocket at the bottom.

So its put in this order, Tape along the bottom of the pocket, with the pully on top to the left, and the prsuks to the right,
That way I know where it is, every time I need it.

As well as carrying a sling with a snap gate on around my waste on top of my deck tube, but under my cag.

Has anyone used the crabs with built in pullys? would elimiate the need to carry both? or as the diamiter of the pully would be less than that of the rope, would the bend be far to great thus creating a weekness?

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Re: In 15 years of boating I have never needed to do a Z-Drag...

Post by kevinf »

I find I can fit 3 Krabs, 2 pulleys, 2 prusiks and a sling comfortably in my Palm Axis Extreme but it does have a larger than average pocket.

More info on z-drags/pig rigs on this thread I started a few months back

http://www.ukriversguidebook.co.uk/foru ... =3&t=55656

With regards to my comments on keeping kit on your person not in your boat, if your z-drag kit is in your boat and your boat is 30 seconds away, by the time you've retrieved your kit you'll have lost a minute.....a minute is a long long time. Same goes for your throw rope, every time you get out of your boat take your rope with you.

Kevin

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Re: In 15 years of boating I have never needed to do a Z-Drag...

Post by Paul Smith »

Jim wrote: Maybe a good idea to find a diagram of the simplest (least kit required) rig, print off about credit card sized and laminate to keep in the bag/pocket with your pin kit?
I have a couple of cards made up by Jules Burnard that show exactly this, but I currently don't have access to my webspace to up load them currently. Any one want to volunteer a bit of space?
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Re: In 15 years of boating I have never needed to do a Z-Drag...

Post by Dr Robin »

As a compromise, how about one pulley already attached a sling in the pocket, so you can set-up a c-drag in seconds? I've personally never experienced a situation in which a z-drag succeeded where a c-drag has failed. And if the situation was an emergency I'd go for the quickest possible solution.

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Re: In 15 years of boating I have never needed to do a Z-Drag...

Post by Chrace »

Paul Smith wrote:
Jim wrote: Maybe a good idea to find a diagram of the simplest (least kit required) rig, print off about credit card sized and laminate to keep in the bag/pocket with your pin kit?
I have a couple of cards made up by Jules Burnard that show exactly this, but I currently don't have access to my webspace to up load them currently. Any one want to volunteer a bit of space?
Fire away, PM'ed my email.

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Re: In 15 years of boating I have never needed to do a Z-Drag...

Post by RVabdn »

Dr Robin wrote:As a compromise, how about one pulley already attached a sling in the pocket, so you can set-up a c-drag in seconds? I've personally never experienced a situation in which a z-drag succeeded where a c-drag has failed. And if the situation was an emergency I'd go for the quickest possible solution.
Whats a c-drag?
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Re: In 15 years of boating I have never needed to do a Z-Drag...

Post by Ed Lefley »

I just had a look on the thread that Kevin had started a while back... out of the kit that was in the picture of my set up all I have are the 3 krabs, the tape and the prussic; all the rest came out of my boat on my last swim, unable to be recovered. Worth thinking about...
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A life without limits on adventure is likely to be short.’
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Re: In 15 years of boating I have never needed to do a Z-Drag...

Post by ssmith184 »

RVabdn wrote: Whats a c-drag?
Attach krab (& pulley) to boat. Attach one end of rope to anchor. Thread rope thru the krab/pulley. Pull.
It's C shaped from anchor, to boat, to you & provides a 2:1 advantage over just pulling.

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Re: In 15 years of boating I have never needed to do a Z-Drag...

Post by thetangoman »

Can anyone recommend what rope I should be looking for to make some prussiks. Prussiks I have had before have been made of rope that is slightly too thin for the task and I have no idea what specific properties of a rope make it suitable.

Additionally, where can I get some of said rope?

Thanks

Andy

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Re: In 15 years of boating I have never needed to do a Z-Drag...

Post by MikeR »

A quick vector pull can be a useful tool too. Pull the rope between the anchor/pinned object hard at 90 degrees to the line of the rope (either grab the rope, or clip on sling/crab).

A good sharp heave momentarily provides a sudden but significant increase in the force applied to the pinned object (and slightly shifts the direction of the pull). This can sometimes be just enought to move the object, takes half a second, and is quicker than re-setting a z-drag type system for another haul.

Mike.

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