Dragorossi

Inland paddling
Dr Repper (not logged in)

Post by Dr Repper (not logged in) » Mon Feb 07, 2005 12:50 pm

Big Chief Sitonfence, a beacon of sense in the inky blackness egotism and selective literacy. Pretty much everything else posted in this thread has been crap. How sad.

MattD
Posts: 565
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 3:48 pm
Location: York
Contact:

Post by MattD » Mon Feb 07, 2005 1:11 pm

Oi, Repper, you take that back or I'll tell everybody about how you touched EJ's winky...


...oops!

MattD
Take nothing but pictures. Leave nothing but footprints. Kill nothing but time.

Dr Repper (Slandered)

Post by Dr Repper (Slandered) » Mon Feb 07, 2005 1:16 pm

I have never at any point touched the Genital region of Eric Jackson. I will admit that on one occasion there was an incident of urinal-stream crossing, but there was at no point any flesh-to-flesh (or, for that matter, urine to flesh, before anyone gets any strange ideas) contact.

Deaves, I will be consulting my legal team at the first opportunity. Expect details of the gagging order in the post.

MattD
Posts: 565
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 3:48 pm
Location: York
Contact:

Post by MattD » Mon Feb 07, 2005 1:22 pm

ROFLMFAO

...and you didn't even consider the dangers of "crossing the streams"?


I hope you don't intend using Hopper for this legal advice... I have dirt on him too!
Take nothing but pictures. Leave nothing but footprints. Kill nothing but time.

Dr Repper (still NLI)

Post by Dr Repper (still NLI) » Mon Feb 07, 2005 3:45 pm

MattD wrote:ROFLMFAO

...and you didn't even consider the dangers of "crossing the streams"?


I hope you don't intend using Hopper for this legal advice... I have dirt on him too!
Suffice it to say that I will never again watch ghostbusters from quite the same perspective.

As for Hopperchops, I know, I've seen the photos!

MattD
Posts: 565
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 3:48 pm
Location: York
Contact:

Post by MattD » Mon Feb 07, 2005 3:48 pm

Sung to the tune of "Devil Woman":

He's Just a Chicken Lickin'... etc etc
Take nothing but pictures. Leave nothing but footprints. Kill nothing but time.

User avatar
Mark R
Posts: 24133
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2002 6:17 pm
Location: Dorset
Has thanked: 13 times
Been thanked: 13 times
Contact:

Post by Mark R » Sun Sep 04, 2005 4:52 pm

I guess I have too long a memory. It would seem that Dragorossi and HighnMighty now acknowledge that the Mafia is NOT the 'The safest creek boat ever designed. Period' as the adverts put it. Check out HnM's post.

http://www.canoecafe.co.uk/forum/viewto ... ight=#3776

Who knows, maybe they'll now decide that the Mafia which they submitted for testing in the UK actually did get paddled, after all.
Mark Rainsley
FACEBOOK

User avatar
Mark R
Posts: 24133
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2002 6:17 pm
Location: Dorset
Has thanked: 13 times
Been thanked: 13 times
Contact:

Post by Mark R » Mon Sep 26, 2005 6:41 pm

guidebook wrote:Who knows, maybe they'll now decide that the Mafia which they submitted for testing in the UK actually did get paddled, after all.
Then again, presumably not; I was just sent this link, which seems to be written by HnM themselves. Anyone know the context?
Mark Rainsley
FACEBOOK

Steve B
Posts: 5699
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2002 2:36 pm
Location: Taunton, Somerset
Been thanked: 1 time

Post by Steve B » Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:26 pm

The context is this which is an old thread on the "Dragorossi message board" apparently kicked back into life by a discussion on canoecafe and in particular this post by "One".
Steve Balcombe

User avatar
Mark R
Posts: 24133
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2002 6:17 pm
Location: Dorset
Has thanked: 13 times
Been thanked: 13 times
Contact:

Post by Mark R » Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:31 pm

Cheers Steve.

They say some odd things about photos which would have apparently discredited the review among readers, had they allowed it to be published...my memory may be hazy, but I'm not aware that they ever saw any of the photos which were taken to accompany the review.
Mark Rainsley
FACEBOOK

User avatar
Adrian Cooper
Posts: 9714
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 2:26 pm
Location: Buckinghamshire
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 12 times

Post by Adrian Cooper » Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:03 pm

Very interesting. I have to say I've not really kept up with this but is the new Drago boat the 'Creeker' or is it just a creeker? If so it seems strange for Jon@Cake to slate 'One' so vehemently since it looks as if he was merely asking a question although it does appear somewhat provocative. Perhaps he should have restricted himself to answering it. Doth he protest too much?
Last edited by Adrian Cooper on Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Playak
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:06 pm
Contact:

UK Distributor

Post by Playak » Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:07 pm

ol wrote:UK distributor is high and Mighty i believe
http://www.thamesweirproject.co.uk/foru ... 72a8b749ae

and someone speaking highly of them here...
http://www.thamesweirproject.co.uk/foru ... 72a8b749ae

make that:
http://highnmighty.co.uk/

Cheers,
Jeroen
_______________
http://playak.com

User avatar
Mark R
Posts: 24133
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2002 6:17 pm
Location: Dorset
Has thanked: 13 times
Been thanked: 13 times
Contact:

Post by Mark R » Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:04 pm

adrian cooper wrote:If so it seems strange for Jon@Cake to slate 'One' so vehemently
Hmm, I read over it again and it really is a nasty little rant. In the final paragraph, he lays into 'Paddles' magazine as some kind of generally recognised pariah of the UK paddling scene.

This strikes me as a bit odd, given that out of the five UK magazines then in circulation, he himself (or HnM, anyway) chose 'Paddles' as the best choice to pass the Mafia to for review. I may have the wrong person, but I'm fairly sure that he also wrote regularly for the magazine, right up to the Mafia business.

The editor of 'Paddles' - as Jon is completely aware...is simply a decent normal fellow, guilty of no particular crime other than trying to improve the quality of the mag and (in the Mafia instance) keep everyone happy at the same time.

So far, we've seen the reviewers publicly slated and called liars (and everything else under the sun), for daring to suggest that the boat wasn't completely perfect. We've seen the incredible claim that the test boat was never paddled, a claim still never withdrawn. Now we learn that the problem is apparently the magazine itself and its lack of credibility; the same magazine they were happy to submit the boat to. Draw your own conclusions about this idiot and the products he represents.
Mark Rainsley
FACEBOOK

Will
Posts: 352
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2002 1:46 pm
Location: Birmingham

Post by Will » Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:14 am

Is John@Cake not the same John who is part of the High N Mighty management team....?

http://www.highnmighty.co.uk/team.htm

http://www.kendo.freeserve.co.uk/CAKE.htm

User avatar
Daffers
Posts: 1527
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:50 am
Location: I Love Living in Reading!
Contact:

Post by Daffers » Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:41 am

Will wrote:Is John@Cake not the same John who is part of the High N Mighty management team....?
http://www.highnmighty.co.uk/team.htm
http://www.kendo.freeserve.co.uk/CAKE.htm
I think that might be the point they they were trying to make, though I could be wrong at this time of night...
JP Lives Forever

User avatar
Mark R
Posts: 24133
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2002 6:17 pm
Location: Dorset
Has thanked: 13 times
Been thanked: 13 times
Contact:

Post by Mark R » Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:23 am

Will wrote:Is John@Cake not the same John who is part of the High N Mighty management team....?
That's the assumption I'm working on. If I'm wrong, then I owe someone an apology....
Mark Rainsley
FACEBOOK

Bod
Posts: 1591
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:50 pm
Location: Exeter

Same Chap

Post by Bod » Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:25 am

Looking at the profile for Jon@Cake and following the hyper link to Cake paddler shows that Jon@Cake is a Mr Jon Yard. He is also one of the management team at High & Mighty. So I think that confirms they are the same. Why oh why won't they let it lie??

User avatar
neilfarmer
Posts: 2076
Joined: Sun May 25, 2003 1:11 am
Location: Glasgow
Contact:

Post by neilfarmer » Wed Sep 28, 2005 12:45 am

guidebook wrote: In the final paragraph, he lays into 'Paddles' magazine as some kind of generally recognised pariah of the UK paddling scene.
...out of the five UK magazines then in circulation, he himself (or HnM, anyway) chose 'Paddles' ... [and]... I'm fairly sure that he also wrote regularly for the magazine, right up to the Mafia business.
I think that somewhere in the rant, he mentions that 'paddles is slow at payment'..... this may shed some light on the criticism of 'paddles', but I cannot really see why.
Neil Farmer.

User avatar
Mark R
Posts: 24133
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2002 6:17 pm
Location: Dorset
Has thanked: 13 times
Been thanked: 13 times
Contact:

Post by Mark R » Wed Sep 28, 2005 7:56 am

neilfarmer wrote:I think that somewhere in the rant, he mentions that 'paddles is slow at payment'..... this may shed some light on the criticism of 'paddles', but I cannot really see why.
The company which own Paddles certainly are very slow, and need reminding to hurry up with the payment from time to time (not unique to the UK paddling press, unfortunately) - but that of course had and has nothing whatsoever to do with HnM's reasons for banning the review which they'd previously requested.
Mark Rainsley
FACEBOOK

ChrisMac
Posts: 233
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 4:05 pm

Post by ChrisMac » Wed Sep 28, 2005 11:47 pm

I have never seen a copy of the article so cannot coment on its view or opinions in anyway but I think that if the magazine agreed with the article it should have just gone ahead and published it. The fact that it didn't to me suggests that it did not have confidence that the views and opinions in the article were supportable.

David McCraw

Post by David McCraw » Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:31 pm

I've come into this late and only skimmed the topic (it is vast)...

Can someone explain to me why the article wasn't published somewhere on the web (if the magazine didn't accept it wouldn't the authors have retained rights?)

Secondly, in academia when someone criticises a paper you'd expect the authors to respond in some way (either to refute, or admit, or publish more research that supports their original conclusions ). Why hasn't this happened in this case? (OK, I know it isn't academia, but whoever the original reviewers were, their reputations have been ground into the mud!)

Thirdly, why hasn't someone else gone over the same ground to validate / invalidate the most controvertial bits (I assume somebody remembers what they were?) If we had a Mafia at our club I'd more than happily do so!

User avatar
Mark R
Posts: 24133
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2002 6:17 pm
Location: Dorset
Has thanked: 13 times
Been thanked: 13 times
Contact:

Post by Mark R » Fri Sep 30, 2005 5:32 pm

David McCraw wrote:Can someone explain to me why the article wasn't published somewhere on the web (if the magazine didn't accept it wouldn't the authors have retained rights?)
Both drafts have been emailed to numerous people who have requested to see it.
David McCraw wrote:Secondly, in academia when someone criticises a paper you'd expect the authors to respond in some way (either to refute, or admit, or publish more research that supports their original conclusions ). Why hasn't this happened in this case?
A detailed response to the first review by the designer (Corran Addison) numbered several thousand words, not all of which you'd show your children. You will have also seen his responses posted here. The central basis of the response from CA and HnM (the UK distributors) is...

1. That the boat was never paddled at all (or only on Grade 2, depending which version you read).

2. We know this because, if it had actually been taken on whitewater, the testers could not have failed to instantly notice that it was the best performing and safest creek boat ever.


If it sounds like I'm being facetious, I'm not...that's almost exactly how it was worded.
David McCraw wrote:Thirdly, why hasn't someone else gone over the same ground to validate / invalidate the most controvertial bits (I assume somebody remembers what they were?) If we had a Mafia at our club I'd more than happily do so!
A review is only one part of the way people assess a boat. Paddlers should of course make their own judgements based on their own common sense; as with any boat, look for yourself, test paddle for yourself, form your own impressions. Ask friends who paddle Mafias what they think, etc.
Mark Rainsley
FACEBOOK

User avatar
Randy Fandango
Posts: 3387
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2003 5:10 pm
Location: London/Kent/Somewhere flat and dry

Post by Randy Fandango » Fri Sep 30, 2005 9:01 pm

David McCraw wrote: Thirdly, why hasn't someone else gone over the same ground to validate / invalidate the most controvertial bits (I assume somebody remembers what they were?) If we had a Mafia at our club I'd more than happily do so!
A group of us (two of whom have just been on the Kayakstan trip extensively talked about on this site) were actually lent a Mafia by HnM to try out at Easter this year in Scotland in the wake of the furore over the original smothered review.
When we returned from the trip no-one seemed to want our opinions. The moment seemed to have passed as it were.
Giles

User avatar
Mark R
Posts: 24133
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2002 6:17 pm
Location: Dorset
Has thanked: 13 times
Been thanked: 13 times
Contact:

Post by Mark R » Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:53 pm

Randy Fandango wrote:When we returned from the trip no-one seemed to want our opinions.
Not sure what you mean?

I don't recall seeing/ reading your review...?
Mark Rainsley
FACEBOOK

User avatar
neilfarmer
Posts: 2076
Joined: Sun May 25, 2003 1:11 am
Location: Glasgow
Contact:

Post by neilfarmer » Sat Oct 01, 2005 1:53 am

guidebook wrote:
Randy Fandango wrote:When we returned from the trip no-one seemed to want our opinions.
Not sure what you mean?
I don't recall seeing/ reading your review...?
I remember reading somewhere (can't remember where) that they may not have been overly impressed. Thus they took some other boats with them, can't remember what!
Neil Farmer.

User avatar
David Fairweather
Posts: 2642
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 8:04 pm
Location: Villars-sur-Ollons, Switzerland
Contact:

Post by David Fairweather » Sat Oct 01, 2005 10:01 am

I spent the bulk of that week in scotland paddling the mafia (mainly because I had sold my creek boat and had nothing else to paddle at the time) and the opinions I formed were pretty similar to the original review. I did post my thoughts on the boat on TWP months and months ago and got the usual Corran Addison response of "you're wrong because I'm right".

I thought the shape of the boat was great (if a little small for my weight) but that there were several other issues (which could all be resolved at a factory level ) that meant I wouldn't be buying one.

David McCraw

Post by David McCraw » Sun Oct 02, 2005 3:35 pm

Mark - I'd be interested in either draft: dave (at) mccraw.co.uk

It seems to me that there are other corroborating "reviews" (or at least reviewers), judging by the last handful of posts..?

D.

User avatar
Mark R
Posts: 24133
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2002 6:17 pm
Location: Dorset
Has thanked: 13 times
Been thanked: 13 times
Contact:

Post by Mark R » Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:45 am

At last! DR have permitted a Mafia review to be published by someone who knows what they're talking about. I'm glad to say it agrees with the suppressed UK review on most counts.

http://playak.com/article.php?sid=1181

Chris Joose is a really respected US creek boater.

The two reviews agree on...

- our positive take on its performance.
- the main concern is the awkwardness of getting in and out of the boat.
- he also isn't convinced by the reliability of the hatch (his hatch leaked, although oddly, he didn't test the clips).

The points of difference between the reviews are...

- he took DR's claims about the strengths of the footrest ratchets at face value, so that area of safety didn't come up for discussion.
- he had nothing to say about the small grab loops.
- he calls the outfitting 'solid' - hmm, some things literally fell off the test boat in the UK.

Either way, of the various reviews permitted to be published, this is the one that bears nearest comparison to the Paddles Test Team review.
Mark Rainsley
FACEBOOK

User avatar
Mark R
Posts: 24133
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2002 6:17 pm
Location: Dorset
Has thanked: 13 times
Been thanked: 13 times
Contact:

Post by Mark R » Sun Nov 13, 2005 5:03 pm

http://evanmonk.com/dragorossi/index.ph ... c=365&st=0

Nnnnn, I don't believe it. On and on it goes. More lies, more slander, more insults. In the past few days CA claims to have been quoting from the banned reviews, if you read the link above. He hasn't, the reviews simply do not say those things.

I say that I have direct and specific knowledge that the Mafia was well tested on a range of appropriate rivers.

HighnMighty/ CA say that the boat was never tested, and have even suggested that it never even got wet.

That means that one of us is telling fibs.

Well, enough...here are the reviews which caused all the fuss. Judge for yourself.

http://www.ukriversguidebook.co.uk/extr ... review.doc

You'll be glad to know...that's my final word on this subject.
Mark Rainsley
FACEBOOK

User avatar
Chris W
Posts: 1331
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2004 6:26 pm
Location: Hurley, Shepperton, Sunbury...

Mafia

Post by Chris W » Sat Nov 19, 2005 6:18 pm

The last word Mark? Well, on this message thread.

I know many people, myself included, regard all of this as tedious 'ancient history'. There is little to say that hasn't already been said. Best to (politely) 'agree to disagree' and move on. However, the saga keeps coming back to life on here, at www.canoecafe.co.uk and at the DR site, and it's hard to ignore.

DR's creek boat offering is now actually starting to look quite promising. The Mafia hull shape IS interesting and the performance is good. As for the fittings, these would now appear to include:

2 hull stiffener bars under the seat
New hatch fastenings that are much sturdier
One central foot rest ratchet (and you can replace the ratchet with a solid bar)
Grab loops that are easier to access
A structural ring to the front of the cockpit instead of a central wall

and...

Whilst the ccckpit is still on the small side, there's a new, bigger alternative model.

....yep, the above pretty much address all of the points raised in the review! (and whilst the 2nd draft WAS an improvement on the 1st, no other review has picked up on all of these points, not one)

The Mafia design is clearly continuing to evolve after its debut, and it's all change for the better. The process has been a lot more controversial and confrontational than it needed to be. All very silly.

Chris W.

Post Reply

Return to “Whitewater and Touring”