Dragorossi

Inland paddling
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Dragorossi

Post by guest11 » Mon Jan 10, 2005 2:58 pm

Anyone tried one yet? Any good?

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Mark R
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Post by Mark R » Mon Jan 10, 2005 4:19 pm

Had a good look at one of the playboats last week in Uganda...

Image

It clearly CAN fly!

Their creek boat (Mafia) has been tested for 'Paddles' mag, but I haven't got to see it myself yet.
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Scoota

Post by Scoota » Mon Jan 10, 2005 6:12 pm

Is there a UK distributor for these kayaks? I haven't been able to find anyone who stocks em?

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ol
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Post by ol » Mon Jan 10, 2005 6:19 pm

UK distributor is high and Mighty i believe
http://www.thamesweirproject.co.uk/foru ... 72a8b749ae

and someone speaking highly of them here...
http://www.thamesweirproject.co.uk/foru ... 72a8b749ae

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Post by Guest » Tue Jan 11, 2005 11:03 am

aparently corran is trying a hydrofoil for one - looks very cool

if you want to see pictures you have to go to

http://www.2imagine.net/blogger2004/foil.html
http://www.2imagine.net/blogger2004/saltlake.html

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R+D

Post by Poke » Tue Jan 11, 2005 11:07 am

He spends all that money on developing the 'perfect' hull, then make it redundant by fitting a hydrofoil.. What?!

May aswell use a Dancer.. ;-)

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Post by Mark R » Tue Jan 11, 2005 5:08 pm

The hydrofoil idea is amazing....I don't understand the science, but wonder if it has potential applications for other kinds of kayaking, such as sea/ touring?
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Pat Murray

Post by Pat Murray » Tue Jan 11, 2005 5:23 pm

For details on the hydro foil that you dont need a motorboat to pull you, and could fit on a sea boat (now those lendal kinetic wings are available) take a look here

http://www.foilkayak.com/videos/FoilMovie01.wmv

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Post by Guest » Wed Jan 12, 2005 11:17 am

http://www.thamesweirproject.co.uk/foru ... 72a8b749ae

Is that review supposed to be serious? That's the worst review Ive ever read, it was done on flat water and INDOORS is full of unsubstantiated hype. Even Corran seems embarressed by it.

Independant reviews anywhere?

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Post by Other guest » Wed Jan 12, 2005 11:24 am


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Post by Tom_Laws » Wed Jan 12, 2005 12:05 pm

i think that the hydrofoil has been tried on a sprint kayak, its all on TWP

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Post by Mark R » Wed Jan 12, 2005 12:57 pm

'A car where bits break in the first week is called a Lada, not a ferrari....'

That strikes me as a bit more impartial...
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Post by Bod » Wed Jan 12, 2005 4:26 pm

I have to say that Ferraris are well known for being extremely fragile and something falling off after a week is not unusual so perhaps the Ferrari analogy does work, although not as intended.

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Post by Wondergirl » Wed Jan 12, 2005 5:50 pm

Anonymous wrote: Is that review supposed to be serious? That's the worst review Ive ever read, it was done on flat water and INDOORS is full of unsubstantiated hype. Even Corran seems embarressed by it.

Independant reviews anywhere?
Mr Anonomous!!!! Come on, you know how excited Deaves gets about new toys......he still don't have a lady you know ;)

This Dragorossi things is certainly causing quite a stir, I guess much like Fluid and JK did last year.....exciting don't you think!

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Mafia

Post by Scuba Steve » Wed Jan 12, 2005 6:46 pm

I have tries a Mafia in the car park to the Upper Dart. Couldn't get in the thing and certainly wouldn't get out very easy. I'm 6ft 2in, size 11 feet and 13 stone. I have my opinion of the thing and it was tested by Mr. Chris Wheeler who will be writing a review upon it. There were some positives which have been highlighted, but also many negatives. i will let Chris spoil the suprise!!!!

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Mafia

Post by Randy Fandango » Wed Jan 12, 2005 7:50 pm

Had a good look at the Mafia at the boat show last week.
Obviously didn't get to paddle it so can't comment on how it handles (indoors or outdoors!) but...
Is that cockpit lots smaller than contemporary creekers? What's that about? Seems not just a step way back in boat design but something that would possibly badly affect your health if you had to get out in an end pin situation.
What's with that stern hatch? I must admit, when I've been out and about in any of the 4 creekers I've owned over the years, I don't ever remember thinking "My God this is good, but it could be PERFECT if only I had a stern hatch like my sea kayak!"
Smacks somewhat of gimmicky unnecessary shiny bits sindrome for my taste. One aimed at the gullible young (and not so young!) out there? Those clips don't look at all strong to me either. I can only imagine how they'd stand up to the rigours my boats have to try to survive.
I don't even mean on the river. I'm thinking about umpteen clumsy drops from roofracks and boats hurled into the back of a van when doing a quick early morning bandit run. I got the impression that if only one of the 4 clips broke, the hatch cover wouldn't stay in place properly.
And that air pipe? Why don't they go the whole hog and sell the boat with some scuba tanks thrown in and a discounted (never ever free!!) PADI course thrown in to allow you to use them?
Go on someone, tell me how cool they are and how wrong I am!

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Re: Mafia

Post by Mark R » Wed Jan 12, 2005 7:57 pm

Randy Fandango wrote:And that air pipe?
Hmmm...yes, it looks silly in the pics. But I'm looking forward to studying this system. If it works, and if it saves just one life in the next ten years then it'll be worthwhile, surely?

Hatches...great concept - if they work, and if they don't weaken the hull. I recently tried a Sniper. The hatch leaked badly, simple as that. A great shame, as I personally loathe cramming day or overnight gear through the tiny gap behind the seat. The Magnum I am currently paddling is particularly irritating for this.

I still haven't seen the test Mafia doing the rounds, although I'm hearing feedback. Looking forward to trying it myself, possibly this weekend.
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Hmmmm

Post by Randy Fandango » Wed Jan 12, 2005 8:06 pm

Have to admit I was chatting to a mate as we looked inside the back so might be a little out here but I thought (!) the hatch opened up the very rear of the boat and though I too have enjoyed carting stuff about dry in the back of my boat I tend to try and do it just behind the seat so as not to throw out the boat's handling too much rather than further back. Isn't there a gap between the back of the seat and the rear compartment? Doesn't this gap have the big bulkhead and the air source from which the air pipe comes?
As for the pipe, if it saves just one life then yes its awesome and bring it on but I'll personally only order one when this happens.
Far more likeky to just catch something lethal from it if you ask me, hanging about in the bottom of your boat constantly, subject to all the usual "cleaning" that the average kayak gets.

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Problems

Post by Poke » Wed Jan 12, 2005 9:17 pm

Firstly, I saw the sniper a while back and noticed the hatch a) doesn't have anyting to clip bags to.. and more importantly b) is in the middle of the stern of the kayak. Didn't have splits with me at the time, but it didn't look like they'd fit in...

Problem 2*... The breathing tube feeds up your drycag (correct me if i'm wrong)... Surely this will a) be so irritating if inspecting (which you tend to do lots of an difficult rivers) you probably won't bother to put it back in... and b) may cause problems with still being attached to the boat when you get out.

* Disclaimer: have not seen one of these in the flesh so don't know how they work and would be happy to be corrected

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Post by ol » Wed Jan 12, 2005 9:24 pm

Also saw these today at the Boat show and was not overly impressed. Although it is plain that Corran is an innovator, as with the Riot boats i wonder if some of this innovation is for innovations sake, in other words unnecessary.

The Riot boats all seem to have ostentatious embellishment and unneccesarily individual fittings, and i think the Dragorossi's may suffer with the same thing.

The Mafia, Hmmm, well its nice looking, kind of. It has edges here and curves there and fillets on that etc. etc, but will this translate to good performance? not sure. The Hatch is a nice idea in theory, but agree with the above that the clips seem very flimsy. The front and rear grab-handles have metal rings on them too, not too sure what thats about. The model there had no thigh hooks but i assume they are the same as the Fish. I am sure they have been thought out but they sure look 'gimmicky'. They ultimately hinge from one place and i wonder how long the plastic will put up with the stress before degrading/breaking.

In the Fish, i thought that it looked kind of 'basic', the seat etc seemed cheap looking and the backband looked old fashioned, except for the neat way it passes through the seat sides, it also looked like it may sit kind of low. Wow i haven't been too positive have i? sorry. I am very much up for innovation but think this may perhaps be something different , masquerading as innovation.

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Legit Criticism

Post by boater rich » Thu Jan 13, 2005 10:15 am

Its a shame that Corran seems unable to take legitimate and reasoned criticism of the outfitting oboard. He seems stuck in a blinkered "I AM ALWAYS RIGHT" mode and sounds like he thinks people are out to get him (well those that live by the sword...).

I don't mind innovation in outfitting, but I think its all getting a bit silly. I don't care what anyone says no amount of outfitting is going to make me able to pull off giant air screws, helixs or whatever. It isn't going to make me want to buy the boat, though it might put me off, a back to simple and effective would be the way forward. Seats that a re comfotable, backbands that offer support, and thighbraces that don't kill circulation. Seems that the drago boats have some way to go to meet those criteria.

Rich

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Post by Wondergirl » Thu Jan 13, 2005 10:24 am

I guess that most people haven't really tried the boats properly, and all thats written is just hype. I know that I'd want to paddle a boat for a good few hours before I'd pay money for it, but loads of people seem to say 'alot' pros and cons without this prior knowledge.......thats why I reckon just HYPE!

Does anyone sell a really good fitting kit, i.e. one with all that nice foam stuff?

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Re: Legit Criticism

Post by Mark R » Thu Jan 13, 2005 10:25 am

boater rich wrote:Its a shame that Corran seems unable to take legitimate and reasoned criticism of the outfitting oboard. He seems stuck in a blinkered "I AM ALWAYS RIGHT" mode and sounds like he thinks people are out to get him (well those that live by the sword...).
I have no personal issue with CA, and doubt anyone else here does...surely we are discussing his boats, not him. Liking/ not liking the gear is not a pro/anti Corran debate.
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Post by boater rich » Thu Jan 13, 2005 11:06 am

Which was kind of my point Mark, however just from a casual reading of the posts he seemed to be getting a little "upset" at the issues people had raised with the new boats.

Rich

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Rear hatch

Post by nwilko (not logged in) » Thu Jan 13, 2005 1:02 pm

Please dont give me a hard time as ive only got experience of a sniper but, If the rear hatch is the same as the sniper then the 3 clips just stop the hatch cover from rotating and hence coming off, hatch may stay on without the clips (but wouldnt want to try it). Riot seats are high backed hence its always hard to get your gear past the seat hence the hatch. The bulkhead on the sniper appears to be foam and sealed with silicone. Would recommend putting an airbag at the very back of the boat and your gear can then be jammed tight upto the bulkhead.
As creekboats need to be strong & simple in design im not sure the hatch dosent fix one problem but create many others.
Structural rigidity of kayak must be reduced by fitting a hatch (for a fixed weight of boat).
If the rear compartment is totally watertight i wouldnt want to breath air from it given the cheesy feet smell in every kayak in the world, can imagine id go from drowning in river water to my owm vom..nice !!!
Would like to try a magnum on the water though....

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Mafia

Post by Chris W » Thu Jan 13, 2005 1:53 pm

I'd just like to pick up on something that Steve 'Scuba' Bates said.

The Paddles Test Team have been trying out the Mafia recently and as a member of the team yes, I was paddling it that day. Howwver, it is very much a team effort and we always try to ensure that as many members of the team as possible get to see and paddle equipment under review. All team members see draft reviews and provide input as they see fit. The reason I had the boat that day was because I was the nearest available team member when Glen from High n Mighty was delivering it. Because I live in Reading, I saved him a trip to from Kent to Dorset! (as it is, Mark R missed out on this one because he was in Uganda).

I enjoyed paddling the boat- I thought the all round performance was actually very good.

Concerning the fittings, lots of fresh thinking and innovation but yes, the fittings do have their pros and cons. I think all of these issues have now, as it happens, been raised on this message thread and on message threads on www.dragorossi.com ('Me and my Mafia' and 'Cost of Dragarossi kayaks..').

BUT, there's really only one way to judge the boat. Check out the dragorossi and high n mighty web sites, read the message threads, and then phone up your local shop and ask if they've got one in stock that you can go and look at it and sit in. Better still, if you one down at the river ask if you can try it on the water. Go see for yourself.

Chris W.

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Review

Post by Puzzled » Thu Jan 13, 2005 3:10 pm

No offence Chris, bit surely the point of you guys being asked to review it is so that we DON'T have to go and try for ourselves if we want to know what its like!

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Re: Review

Post by Steve B » Thu Jan 13, 2005 3:35 pm

Puzzled wrote: surely the point of you guys being asked to review it is so that we DON'T have to go and try for ourselves
Speaking as a reader of reviews rather than a writer, I can't agree.

I buy almost all my computer kit, for example, based on reviews. By way of example, take the wireless router I suggested to Mark in another thread. I read an in-depth review of a number of similar products and chose the one which (a) had the right spec and (b) performed well in the review. I had all the information I needed and I've been well pleased with the choice.

But buying a kayak is completely different. The reviewer can only tell you how it performed in his very unscientific opinion, in the conditions he was able to test it in (truly long term reviews are pretty rare), for his size, weight, skills and expectations. If you are really lucky, there might be a second opinion from a different paddler. The whole process is highly subjective, and the only way to establish whether it is right *for you* is to try it yourself.
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??

Post by Randy Fandango » Thu Jan 13, 2005 4:13 pm

Then in that case why was he asked to review it in the first place? :-)

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Stop!

Post by Randy Fandango » Thu Jan 13, 2005 4:28 pm

Before anyone points out the obvious to me, I wasn't being entirely serious. I can and do see the good points and the limitations of someone or someones reviewing something as subjective as whether or not a kayak is any good.
Ultimately I quite like to hear others' opinions and know whether its designed for what I want a boat for and for my weight and size, then I like to try it out.
I've looked at the boat at the boatshow and wasn't that impressed. This hasn't made me want to try one out any less -- actually quite the reverse!
Not sure about that smaller cockpit though. That's not "hype" or conjecture; that's potentially life threatening. Rather surprising considering how keen Mr Addison is for people to use the right tool for the right job. For me I'm not sure that makes the Mafia the right boat for steep rivers.
BTW - when I say try it out obviously I don't wish to try this feature out! I don't wish to get end pinned somewhere horrible then see if I can get out in a hurry. I'll leave that for someone else to review!
Giles

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