SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by Wildswimmer Pete »

Adrian Cooper wrote: I don't think that in any country water is classed as land. Wherever it is.
..............and under English (and presumably Welsh) law no-one can own flowing water irrespective of the disputed right to own the bed under it. Riparian "owners" have no more right to prevent passage over "their" bit of riverbed than they do aircraft flying over their land.

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by fishguard »

Hi Chriscw - I have said nothing on here that isnt true, I would not open myself up to be proven wrong by you guys. No matter how you interpret my postings I have not lied, this is the information I have recieved via People in higher places ( E.A, MPs, Lamdowners etc etc)

Bits about trespass and insurance has come about by the discussions expanding in diffrent directions (as they tend to do) and are not really my interests/concerns ( you know full well my concerns as it is on all 34 pages ) but that does not say I wont join in discussing on these Random Threads.

So like I said belive what you want, but please dont call me a liar.

Regards FG

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by shanclan »

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by MikeB »

The problem here is simply that Tony just doesn't actually have any worthwhile proof - and as he frequently demonstrates(the "insurance" debacle being the most recent) doesn't really know what he's talking about.

Still - it makes for light entertainment on a slow day.

Show us some "proof" Tony.

Mike.

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by fishguard »

Mark R wrote:Adrian - please scan your letter from the EA (or take a screen dump if it's an email), post it up here, shut this buffoon up once and for all.
Shanclan - Adrian has yet to do what Mark R has asked, so until such a time ( like you all say about my information) it is just a letter that could quite easily have been made up, so come on Adrian post the letter in full and share it with your fellow Paddlers.

Higher up means just that - well above E.A level, as for talking to my A.M`s they do not have the powers to do as you ask, and it will end up in Parliment with our MP`s.

Shanclan Were you not with us on this planet when BCU`S attempts at a change in the law were rejected/thwarted at Westminster?

How are the CW attempts going to be any different ?

Comments posted on here such as "a change is coming" and "Times are changing" are far from happening ( so sorry to spoil your dreams) but you call me dellusional!

Regards FG

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by morsey »

Self imposed Traversing Watercourse Anti Trespassing Sentinels.


Hi I would like to make an agreement with you please, it is completely different to what we used to offer because we have decided that now the fish need to be looked after, yes it is in total contradiction to many fisheries across the land, but it is because some bright spark (dim) said we can use this angle to stop canoeists interrupting our fishing. Our fellow anglers who also happen to work for the EA are trying this new angle out, but are trying to sneak it through without it being seen as pro angling policy, because they know they are not allowed to promote one activity over another. We are definitely not going to mention the fact that this was already tried and rejected and the fishery involved is actively inviting canoeists onto their water throughout october, we will just dismiss that because it has no relevance. And Scotland, that does not count, nor do tidal waters, it is not like the fish come from the sea is it now! Oh did I mention that just down the road the neighbouring fisheries has proposed an avian cull to wipe out naturally occurring predators, we clearly do not condone such action because we promote environmental protection for the entire river system. Actually no I did not come to offer agreement, I remember, I came to shout, you idiots what do you think you are doing canoeing on rivers, you are all trespassers, you have no insurance, you have no understanding of the environment at all. Anyway summer is here again, wake me up when September ends, because those little fish have got their calendars marked and their watches primed, no do not be absurd, rain in October enough to bring the river into fine condition do not be silly. Sorry what is that you say? You canoeists include Police officers, EA officers, National Trust wardens, environmental resource managers, marine biologists, lawyers, aquatic vets, water authority pollution control scientists, RNLI members, Mountain rescue personnel, that does not matter one jot, I know better than you, I mean, you should have seen who I had in the back last week, it was only that Griff Rhys Jones and boy he did make me laugh, he said he would lend me a paddle because I appeared to be up a creek but I cannot remember the name of it. Canoeing it is just not allowed, you name I can think of some reason to stop it, and I can, you will respect my authority.

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by andya »

Deleted by Andy ...
Reason: “There is no waste of time in life like that of making explanations.” - Benjamin Disraeli
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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by chriscw »

fishguard wrote:Hi Chriscw - I have said nothing on here that isnt true, I would not open myself up to be proven wrong by you guys. No matter how you interpret my postings I have not lied, this is the information I have recieved via People in higher places ( E.A, MPs, Lamdowners etc etc)

Regards FG
Reminds me of remarks by a certain blind politician in 1997 about labour never having been in favour of closing any schools, he was lying, he knew he was lying, he knew that his listeners knew he was lying and yet he said it anyway... Why do you do it, saying a stupid thing a million times does not make it any less stupid. You should not devalue any genuine concerns you have or any valid points you want to make by lying so much it makes us just treat you as a figure of fun which given the river management and environmental work you do is not really fair.

If you believe that floating over spawning beds in a reasonable level of water may harm the spawn or put the fish off despite the studies which show this is not the case you are entitled to you opinion and we will listen, we may even take extra care, above and beyond that which is necessary to avoid worrying you. If you claim that the EA have these concerns and intend to take action when they clearly do not I am afraid most of us will just laugh at you, it undermines your point it does not reinforce it.
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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by Adrian Cooper »

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by Adrian Shanahan »

1000 posts on this thread... Who would have thought.

Tony aka fishface

I am somewhat of a bullshitter myself, but occasionally I like to listen to a professional. Please carry on...

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by shanclan »

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by mcneilljamie »

FG - Assuming that no change occurs, what do you believe the outcome would be should the matter be presented to the European courts?

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by fishguard »

Adrian Cooper wrote:
fishguard wrote:
Mark R wrote:Adrian - please scan your letter from the EA (or take a screen dump if it's an email), post it up here, shut this buffoon up once and for all.
Shanclan - Adrian has yet to do what Mark R has asked, so until such a time ( like you all say about my information) it is just a letter that could quite easily have been made up, so come on Adrian post the letter in full and share it with your fellow Paddlers.
I have discussed this matter with Mark and he knows where I am coming from.
Adrian - I never doubted he wouldnt back you - shame he never explained why you never posted it on (the elusive E.A letter) for the rest of us to see, but hey your forum your rules!

Adrian Shanahan - Thank you is that a compliment!

Jamie - if it ends up in the European Courts, the protection of salmon, they are a named species under the EU Habitat Directive. It is about time the EA complied with the requirements under the EU Habitat Directive and WAG’s own Biodiversity Action Plan. So Jamie I think our position would be a very strong one.
shanclan wrote:
fishguard wrote: Shanclan - Adrian has yet to do what Mark R has asked, so until such a time ( like you all say about my information) it is just a letter that could quite easily have been made up, so come on Adrian post the letter in full and share it with your fellow Paddlers.
I believe him.

I never imagined you wouldnt - false hope and all that.
Carry on. It amuses me.[/quote]

I will.

Chriscw - There has been no report done on a Salmon/Sea Trout river only on a course fishing river, which is completely diffrent ( hence the need for the near coming new research) you quote me as lying again, which is your call, but what I have posted is the truth and not silly little things, I sometimes dont like your replies but do not call them lies.

The work I do on the Rivers is important to the Environment and my beliefs, at a large cost to myself personally and financially, if you want to mock and laugh at me, it just strengthens my position and cause.

andya - unlike Adrian I never posted a supposidly official E.A letter on this thread, so slight diffrence Im affraid, but hey Mark R has since excused him ( after asking him to post it) of posting it up on the thread for all to see. Again Your thread Your Rules!

Morsey - Sorry I cant even start going in to your posting/mentality.

Regards FG

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by Chris W »

No, I'm not posting on here about SAFFA (hardly 'news' and certainly not relevant to my paddling). I just wanted to be a part of this historic, record breaking message thread (1,000 posts, wow!) and pick up on Peter Wildswimmer's last post about the legal background, by repeating an earlier dull post of mine....

1. The fact that landowners do not- literally- own the water that passes through their properties is NOT relevant.

2. It's a long established legal principle that landowners do not just control the surface of the earth. They control activity within three dimensional space, where it might reasonably be expected to in any way interfere with their enjoyment of their property, unless statute says otherwise (as per mining and aviation)(*). Kayaking cannot of course be equated with flying. Unless you're Tao Berman.

3. The principle of Riparian Ownership is also long established through custom. Do you think the Courts would be willing to reverse that princple? And do you think the Government would want to take on ownership of and liability for all non tidal water ways?

4. The princple that landowners have control of the navigation of non tidal water ways has also developed by custom, but it would seem only within the last 150 years or so, and in error. Well, according to an MA paper. Again, how can you be so certain that the Courts would be willing to overturn that custom, just because a chap wrote an MA paper that says they ought to?

Wishful thinking and misinterpretation of the law do not help our cause at all.

Not that any of this really matters, because in practice, policing and controlling 1000's of paddlers is practically impossible (apart from where wilful damage of spawning beds or aggravated trespess can be proven, and for all the talk, how many landowners have successfully sued paddlers?).

(* there was a recently reported case where a landowner successfuly sued a mining company for trespass because they failed to follow statutory procedure however, because in practice they could not prove any meaningful interferance with their enjoyment of the land or any consequential loss, damages were minimal. I don't know what the award on costs was).

Chris.
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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by shanclan »

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by Mark R »

fishguard wrote: hey Mark R has since excused him ( after asking him to post it)
Don't presume to assume, guess or know what I think or have done, you arrogant prat.
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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by fishguard »

Mark R - Nice to see your not holding back on the insults, I think silvergirl might be getting in touch with you about Blood pressure shortly!

Mark R can you post your warning to yourself so we can all see how fair you are on this thread, because you have issued warnings for much less to other posters on this forum.

If you dont want assumptions made, why not give the answers?

Nice to see your a part of this historic thread Chris W, and must say what a good posting it is.

Regards FG

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by Lancs_lad »

I haven't got the time to read this from the beginning.

Anyway, whatever the argument going on is, I will still paddle when there is water. I dont care if another human being wants to lower himself to throwing rocks at me (as happened on the Kent a couple of Saturdays ago), I will still paddle and have fun.

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by jmmoxon »

They've been throwing rocks on the Kent for at least 30 years, doesn't make it right but it is a reasonable assumption that it is going to happen if we paddle.

I think everyone needs to remember that assumption is the main method that our brains use to make sense of the world - so if non of us is prepared to reveal our sources then we must expect others to make assumptions...

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by andya »

Deleted by Andy ...

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by quicky »

My infor was from...

Samantha Shaw
National Customer Contact Centre

Dr. Guy W. Mawle
Fisheries Policy Manager
Environment Agency

as well as the telephone call from the Welsh fisheries guy (who still has not emailed so I went back to Gr. Guy instead.

So please FG tell us yours...

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by jmmoxon »

Presumably this is the same Guy Mawle who is a trustee of the Wye & Usk Foundation: http://www.wyeuskfoundation.org/whoswho.php

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by Mark R »

fishguard wrote:how fair you are
If you doubt the integrity of the editing of this site in any way, exercise your choice not to use it.

Dare to question the integrity of my editing and I will make that choice for you.


This is the last thing I have to say to you.
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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by quicky »

Presumably this is the same Guy Mawle who is a trustee of the Wye & Usk Foundation: http://www.wyeuskfoundation.org/whoswho.php

Maybe but his comment was
As regards offences under the Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries Act 1975, I suggest that, provided you follow any directions given by an Environment Agency or police officer, this shouldn't be a problem.
So contacting the EA officials leagl dept to ask them...

The EA legal representative has said we don't disturb fish and there is no campaign to prosecute paddlers and as I paddler with two police officers I think I have all bases covered.



Someone is 'funny' on this page, http://www.wyeuskfoundation.org/navigation/index.php The dueling banjos playing on the navigation page.... very droll...

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by jmmoxon »

As regards offences under the Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries Act 1975, I suggest that, provided you follow any directions given by an Environment Agency or police officer, this shouldn't be a problem.
This would seem to be the same info that Fishguard has been quoting, but putting a different spin on it. Welsh Anglers are definitely trying to organise against paddlers and they do have many supporters within the Environment Agency, HM Government & the forces of Law & Order. Whether these organisations officially support their position or not, some individuals will, so do be careful when paddling in Wales this winter that you do not put yourself in a position where you can be prosecuted for assault or damaging property, as this will only damage our cause. Attempted prosecutions without either assault or damage are unlikely to be successful & are more likely to assist our position.

Even if we do gain the right of access to water, in the majority of cases we will still need permission from private landowners to reach the water, so cannot afford to upset everyone - the advantage will be that we will no longer be expected to get permission from all landowners along the river.

At present we are more likely to get access in Wales than England, as the Welsh Assembly has it's power base in the towns (similar to Scotland), whilst Landowners still hold power in Westminster, although I wouldn't be surprised if a quick survey showed more members of Assembly were anglers than paddlers.

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by Steve B »

fishguard wrote:... what happens if like you say accidentally spear someone with a vessel and crack a couple of risbs, whilst you are trespassing to gain access, I should imagine your Public Liability would become void.
Just for the record, as people might be concerned about this - no it wouldn't. The whole point about liability insurance is that it only pays out if you've done something wrong. Compare, for example, driving insurance - which does pay out if the driver is drunk.
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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by fishguard »

Mark R - I take it you wont be apologizing then, and I do doubt the integrity that is my choice, as it is yours not to belive my postings and throw insults at me, now show all posters how you silence people who dare to disagree with you Mark, you might be in charge of this forum and be able to do as you wish, I will have no problems with you " making that choice for me" just shows the strength of your current situation!

At least I wont expect a reply from you as you have spoken your last words to me?

Quicky - The two Police officers you paddle with obviously dont go paddling where they have no access agreements or legal access to the river, as this would jeapordise their careers. Or are they willing to lose their jobs for their sport, is that what you are saying? maybe you can ask them if being Police Officers they are safe from prosecution under SAFFA 1975. Quicky I doubt very much they will be best pleased with you using them as reference for you purpose, thanks for the information though its all been forwarded to the relevant people.

andya - I play Truth but not Dare - I have my reasons to withhold Names and contacts, and that is I dont belive anyone helping our cause should have to suffer from an onslaught of grief from you guys.

Regards FG

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by edhunter »

fishguard wrote:Mark R - I take it you wont be apologizing then, and I do doubt the integrity that is my choice, as it is yours not to belive my postings and throw insults at me, now show all posters how you silence people who dare to disagree with you Mark, you might be in charge of this forum and be able to do as you wish, I will have no problems with you " making that choice for me" just shows the strength of your current situation!

At least I wont expect a reply from you as you have spoken your last words to me?

Regards FG
ok i apologise for swearing but now you have pissed me off. i have never seen any evidance on here of unfair moderation in the slightest, and for you to question his integrity is rediculious. you have come onto his forum and assumed things about mark that were wrong, he got rather upset about this and registerd his displeasure, this is his choise, you wouldnt take it in your house would you?

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by MikeB »

SteveB - Indeed.

As you've saved him the research I'm sure Fishguard will be grateful. His understanding of the principles of insurance being clearly rather limited.

Too much urban myth.

Mike.

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by fishguard »

Steve B wrote:
fishguard wrote:... what happens if like you say accidentally spear someone with a vessel and crack a couple of risbs, whilst you are trespassing to gain access, I should imagine your Public Liability would become void.
Just for the record, as people might be concerned about this - no it wouldn't. The whole point about liability insurance is that it only pays out if you've done something wrong. Compare, for example, driving insurance - which does pay out if the driver is drunk.
So Steve - If you are trespassing and slide down a bank in you Kayak, and land on an Angler seriously injuring him, you have done something wrong who will pay ? your liability insurance ( will it cover you when they find out you shouldnt have even been there) or will the Angler have to take out a private prosecution for compensation for his injuries?

As this is a possibility of what could happen (or other likewise incidents) when we share the rivers until (if ever) there is a change in the Law.

Regards FG

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