SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

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MikeB
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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by MikeB »

Tony, while you're at it, you might want to have your club investigate the likely extent of it's liability in the event of a liability claim.

I think you'll find that damages are unlimited, certainly not limited merely to the relativly low levels provided by most liability insurers or required by a body allowing your club access to it's land for the purposes outlined.

I think you'll also find that it is the club members who would be themselves, personally, liable.

It's certainly worth checking and tabling at your new AGM / club meeting.

Mike.

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by Ed Lefley »

fishguard wrote: MikeB - You asked, so for your information I told, but really shouldnt Paddlers have Public Liability if they want to share the same waters as other River users, I think its quite an appropriate question.

Regards FG
On your basis then surely every cyclist should have public liability as well for when they are on the road? Or do pedestrians need it as well? If the cause of an accident is a pedestrian stepping into the road, which leads the driver to take evasive action which results in them hitting a wall, which is the causal factor, and who is liable for causing the accident?

There are so many flaws in the arguements it's unreal.... people can share open spaces quite easily; I'm near the Trough of Bowland which I believe is some of the best shooting in England, yet the land is covered by CROW... with careful consideration things can work together; it just takes a bit of give and take, and most important well researched reason.
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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by Wildswimmer Pete »

fishguard wrote:Wildswimmer Pete - Why the Skull cap and goggles, just for the looks eh?
Tony - that is a standard silicone SWIM cap, toddle off to your local baths and you'll find many swimmers wear them. My avatar pic was taken in my local R. Weaver one November day day so yes, it was to retain heat. You lose a lot of heat from your head particularly when it's shaved as is mine. In the depths of winter, or in waters shared with other users I wear a DayGlo cap for visibility.

I don't wear the goggles "for looks". Should you look carefully you'll see they are supporting a waterproof FM radio - you can see the earphones in my ears. Mind you if I "bandit swam" in "your" waters dark goggles are a good disguise.

You asked in a previous question why I was contributing to this thread. The answer is very simple: a swimmer is legally classed to be a vessel and swimming in a river etc. is an act of navigation. Of course that means open-water swimmers are expected to keep to the basic rules of navigation and we do have an ongoing policy of education amongst our numbers. It also means that in any waters with navigation rights I am entitled to swim over spawning beds whether or not fish are In flagrante delicto as navigation rights over-rule SAFFA as well you know.

Edit: However I would not knowingly swim over spawning beds nor do anything else to disturb fish.

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by shanclan »

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weso
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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by weso »

Good point about FC land having public access, Wildswimmer Pete. Of course, 'twasn't always the case. I can remember when access was restricted to public rights of way and cycling wasn't allowed - before the days of mountain bikes, of course. Access to crags on forestry land, or caves or mines, is another kettle of fish. However,ncreased access and a more positive attitude to increasing public access, and improved facilities for recreational users, is yet another illustration of how publicly funded bodies with responsibility for parts of the environment have expanded their interpretation of providing a service to the public - who pay all the bills. Times have changed - the public expects more for its taxes and government has seen the writing on the wall. 'Free' access to rivers is coming - and rivers where FC is the riparian owner will probably be out in front. Good news for paddlers, given that many of the upland rivers are also in areas where forestry is the only viable form of agriculture.

PS - if you are a 'vessel' when you are swimming, where do you carry your nav. lights?

FG - I suspect that the reason you had to jump through all the hoops to get permission to clear litter is more to do with the land owners covering their own arses, not yours.

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by Wildswimmer Pete »

weso wrote: PS - if you are a 'vessel' when you are swimming, where do you carry your nav. lights?
I don't usually swim at night but have a head torch that would do for the front light. However I dread to think of where I'm supposed to mount the red rear light............... :-0 Have to find a yellow light as well for when I'm moored up for a rest!

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by RichA »

fishguard wrote: If you do not have an access agreement to paddle a stretch of water and you have an accident I see it highly unlikely any Home insurance policy would pay out or am I missing something, as we have to take out a specialised policy for public liability.

Regards FG
Fishguard, sorry if I've missed it in the jumble of the latest posts, but what are you suggesting that we need public liability insurance for?

Assuming we have the insurance you think is necessary, will we then be allowed (in your opinion) to paddle on rivers as we currently do, or will it not make any difference to the current position river users are currently in?

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by wezzzy »

fishguard wrote:
Please post some evidence of your so called horror stories in Wales, as I am unaware of any such encounters and I live here, you would be quite safe to come and visit, and if you read back on this thread Paddlers have also said they do not get conflict or abuse when Paddling the sections we look after.
Regards FG
I could probably fill a thread or two with accounts of paddlers (From WW paddlers to families renting a canoe for the day) throughout the UK recieving threats, abuse, and assaults.
I myself have had stones and bits of trees thrown at me, lines with fly, ledger and float attached cast at me and even threatened with someone's dog.
Some of these incidents were reported to the police but the descriptions were a bit vague, green jacket, big wellie boots, silly hat and holding a long fibreglass pole.
When I have attempted to ask to see the offending partys (Or is it parties) rod licence they have run away. I assume this is because they "judge a book by its cover" and don't like the look of a 6 foot shaven headed gentleman walking towards them, especially after they have been attempting to assault me or have been insulting me.

Most of these incidents I have witnessed have occured on rivers that have either navigation rights or a volentary agreement

I was going to post a link to a thread on such an incident but FG seems to have already seen it and posted.

Just because you claim that this does not happen on "your water" doesnt mean it doesnt happen.

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by cswalker »

Wildswimmer Pete wrote:Have to find a yellow light as well for when I'm moored up for a rest!
Vessels at anchor display one or two white anchor lights (depending on the vessel's length - or your length Pete) that can be seen from all directions. If two lights are shown then the forward light is higher than the aft one.

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by fishguard »

wezzzy - why do you feel the need to describe yourself as 6ft shaven headed, is this supposed to be scary, I did not beat anyone to posting a link on any such incidents, like I have said we do not want confrontation (aggressive or abusive) on the waters we look after, and then you carry on with taking the P**s out of the way Anglers look, which isnt much of a diffrence to how paddlers look. except you being 6ft having long legs all the way up to you plastic skirt holding a pole!

Paddlers - why should you be any diffrent when using Forestry land to gain access to the Rivers, to Anglers who would gain access to the Banks, forestry Enterprise insisted on 5 million Public liability off us, so why would they not insist on it off you?

But then again without you legally having access to the rivers, it might NOT be a question we can put to them, but it has been noted with the Petitions Committee!

Regards FG

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by GoldTopo »

But we DO legally have access to rivers.
It's quite simple, there is NO law saying that we don't.
That's the way our legal system works.

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by MikeB »

fishguard wrote: Paddlers - why should you be any diffrent when using Forestry land to gain access to the Rivers, to Anglers who would gain access to the Banks, forestry Enterprise insisted on 5 million Public liability off us, so why would they not insist on it off you?
For the very simple reason that you have approached them as a club and are working effectively on their behalf. Accordingly, they are concerned that because they have given you this permission, they could be potentially held liable for whatever may happen while you are working on their land.

Now - given that you and your fellow fisherfolk are all memebrs of this club, there is a high possibility that anyone feeling the need to persue a claim for damages will come after you all as individuals. Which they are quite entitled to do. Hadn't you thought of any of that? If you had, you'd not have posted the ridiculous suggestion that an individual paddler has to carry liability insurance in order to access land to which the public clearly have access.

I'd strongly suggest your club should look at it's constitution and take advice as to whether you should be constitued as a limited liability company.

Returning to the theme of whether I as a paddler am required to carry insurance, the answer is of course no. Whether it would be advisable for me to carry such insuracne, either through my membership of an appropriate body or personally (perhaps thro my household insuracne) is moot. But my choice.

I do hope this has helped you - your "insurance argument" is best left dormant.

Next?

Mike.

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by enjoyer »

Fishguard wrote:
Paddlers - why should you be any diffrent when using Forestry land to gain access to the Rivers, to Anglers who would gain access to the Banks, forestry Enterprise insisted on 5 million Public liability off us, so why would they not insist on it off you?
Solely for information - membership of the BCU gives up to £10 million of public liability cover.

Take a leaf out of MikeB's advice.

You are barking up the wrong tree on this one.

I have no wish to be at loggerheads...

... Just wanted to clear the wood for the trees.

:)

Sorry couldn't help myself.

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by fishguard »


individual paddler has to carry liability insurance in order to access land to which the public clearly have access.

Mike.
You do not have permission off the Forestry/Land owners or off the Estates ( who own the Banks) to launch your vessels if you did you wouldnt be needing a change in the law WOULD YOU?

Im still confused on this Mike why do the BCU and no doubt CW provide liability cover then?

Regards FG

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by MikeB »

Oh for goodness sake.

We've never suggested that we don't need permission to cross "private land". That's not the issue, what part of that particular aspect of access are you still having trouble with?

The BCU et al provide liability cover as part of their membership package because there are numerous other situations where it just might be useful. Think about it. As you carry your fishing rod along a bank you might just put someones eye out.

I might just spear someone in the side with an 18ft sea kayak travelling at speed, and fracture a couple of their ribs. Now, in either case, were it to be proven that either of us had been negligent, wouldn't it be nice to carry liability cover.

I'm not going to enter into further debate on this particular subject Tony - if you don't get it, then quite honestly I'm not going to waste my time trying to explain it to you.

Mike.

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by fishguard »

MikeB - One last question on this subject (maybe) what happens if like you say accidentally spear someone with a vessel and crack a couple of risbs, whilst you are trespassing to gain access, I should imagine your Public Liability would become void.

Ive taken your comments on board, but it seems to me that on one hand you say we should look at our Public Liability Policies, and on the other hand it is O.K for the BCU to do like wise.

Regards FG

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by wezzzy »

fishguard wrote:wezzzy - why do you feel the need to describe yourself as 6ft shaven headed, is this supposed to be scary, I did not beat anyone to posting a link on any such incidents, like I have said we do not want confrontation (aggressive or abusive) on the waters we look after, and then you carry on with taking the P**s out of the way Anglers look, which isnt much of a diffrence to how paddlers look. except you being 6ft having long legs all the way up to you plastic skirt holding a pole!
Regards FG
I describe myself as such because that is what I look like, pure and simple, some people see it as scary, some dont.
I have tried to talk to people who have tried to assault me and been abusive to me but they do run away before I get close, I do not chase, I do not threaten and I do not intimidate them, I could do if i wanted to. (That is a joke BTW)

I did mean to imply you "beat anyone to it", I just commented that you had already commented on the thread.

I do take the piss, I admit it, but if you see my posts on other threads I do it all the time, it isn't just against the blood thirsty "counrty sports" brigade. (Do I need a smiley here or not??) (See, I have done it again)

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by MikeB »

Tony - research it yourself.

Mike.

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by edhunter »

fishguard wrote:MikeB - One last question on this subject (maybe) what happens if like you say accidentally spear someone with a vessel and crack a couple of risbs, whilst you are trespassing to gain access, I should imagine your Public Liability would become void.

Ive taken your comments on board, but it seems to me that on one hand you say we should look at our Public Liability Policies, and on the other hand it is O.K for the BCU to do like wise.

Regards FG
but nobody here has sugested that we should or that we do trespass in fact we have all agreed it is wrong ofr us to trespass so that seems to me that its a completely void comment. that and i doubt it is void our car insurance isnt void if ou speed which is also illeagle.... perhaps the person who works in insurance may be able to shead more light on the matter.

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by fishguard »

Wezzzy - Fair enough and if it makes you feel better I too look scary ( in my green wellies and silly hat)

No Problem Mike I will, thanks for your help!

edhunter - ask MikeB I think he said its his forte, but I think he has given up on me. If you have no car tax or mot your insurance is not valid. We get plenty of Paddlers Trespassing on the Banks we lease, most days of the week in fact, and that is why I have asked the question to mike on public liability.

Anyway good night.

Regards FG

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by MikeB »

fishguard wrote: edhunter - ask MikeB I think he said its his forte, but I think he has given up on me. If you have no car tax or mot your insurance is not valid. We get plenty of Paddlers Trespassing on the Banks we lease, most days of the week in fact, and that is why I have asked the question to mike on public liability.

Anyway good night.

Regards FG
Ed - Tony doesn't seem to understand the subtle, but important disticntion, between statutory legislation / criminal acts and civil law. Neither does he seem to appreciate the finer points of insurance policy "small print" as he seems to get most of his "information" from the pub rather than relevant specialists. He's also been watching too much Police Stop.

Tony - please, do tell me under which specific piece of legislation does trespass come?

There you go - you got me to bite!

Mike.

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by Tony Aiuto »

Tony

Lots of paddlers trespassing on YOUR? land, really? If there are so many people trespassing, why haven't you done something about it? (insert your own sarcastic emoticon here)
fishguard wrote:You do not have permission off the Forestry/Land owners or off the Estates ( who own the Banks) to launch your vessels if you did you wouldnt be needing a change in the law WOULD YOU? Regards FG
Paddlers don't need a change in the law to paddle on rivers, we can do that legally already. I don't cross privately owned land without permission to get on or off the rivers, once I'm on the rivers, I don't need anyone's permission to paddle.

This thread really is going round in circles, is there any wonder that nothing has ever been sorted out satisfactory for any rivers users, if, like you calm, your thinking follows that of the mainstream fishing fraternity.

I really do hold on to the hope that one day, we can all use natural resources in harmony.
Tony Aiuto

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by wezzzy »

fishguard wrote:Wezzzy - Fair enough and if it makes you feel better I too look scary ( in my green wellies and silly hat)

Regards FG
The difference here is you deem yourself to look scary, I only say some others see me as scary.
I see myself as a cuddy bear without al the fur.

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by fishguard »

Hi Mikeb - I knew you would bite, didnt take much did it!

Tony/Mike - The Estate land you access over to get on the Llugwy and Conwy is Trespass, the reason nothing is done about it is, we would need identities and a court case, Trespass as you fully know is a Civil offence and would have to be taken to court every time against every individual paddler. And as the law in Wales stands at present isnt water classed as land through the Landowners Property?

wezzzy - I was just trying to soften our postings, it was just a bit of humour, but hey you take my postings how ever you want.

Regards FG

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by edhunter »

wezzzy wrote:
fishguard wrote:Wezzzy - Fair enough and if it makes you feel better I too look scary ( in my green wellies and silly hat)

Regards FG
The difference here is you deem yourself to look scary, I only say some others see me as scary.
I see myself as a cuddy bear without al the fur.
i dont know wezzy you do seem to have all your fur in your avatar :-p

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by Adrian Cooper »

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by fishguard »

Adrian Cooper wrote:
Dear Mr Cooper

Thank you for your enquiry. I am pleased to be able to advise that the Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries Act 1975 was never drafted with the intention of restricting the activities of man-powered watercraft such as canoes and kayaks. We have no evidence that this type of craft causes any damage to spawning fish or spawning beds and would not anticipate any action against canoeists or kayakers paddling over these provided they were able to pass whilst still afloat.

I trust this answers your query.

Yours sincerely

XXXXXXXXX
Legal Exectutive
Environment Agency
Hi Adrian - You have been quiet, were still waiting for authenticity of your recieved E.A letter.

Regards FG

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by nwilko »

the only concern FG keeps repeating is,
we dont want paddlers to disturb gravels & fish spawning in said gravels.

so let us know where they are, appropriate levels to protect gravels & spawning therin (and not the sujective argument of interfeering with passage of fish, as we all know the EA determined a canoe / kayak travelling downriver did not disturb fish, however fishermen agrue that if we are their at all we are a disturbance).

and we have the basis for a workable mechanism to protect the river enviro..

However FG needs to accept that their is nothing in UK law which prevents us from being their, on the proviso that we dont disturb spawning / gravels..

Now if the fishermen and EA know where these areas are but make no effort to communicate to the public where these are and how to avoid they would have no legal basis for prosecuting a paddler or any other member of the public. To succed with a prosectution would require the location and means to avoid interfeering with spawning to be in the public domain.

However if this material is in the public domain, the fisherman loose their long held belief that they have a legal right to prevent someone from kayaking (this has been reinforced for the past 20years by poor support from NGB's via access agreements)..

Times are changing.
Nik...

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by fishguard »

Hi Paddlers - What more evidence/Proof do you need that trespassing takes place, the Bangor Uni lads have done it again, More the point they state here they already use all these waters but yet you still argue that you only have 4% of Welsh Rivers Available to you!

http://thekrikkitwars.files.wordpress.c ... /wadoc.pdf

Well done Krikkitwars.

You call me a LIAR

Regards FG

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by chriscw »

Yes sorry FG we would like to stop calling you a Liar however for that to happen you will need to stop Lying...

The Bangor boys appear to be spot on their submission boils down to we have a right to navigate rivers provided we access them from land we are entitled to use but some other users whose hobbies make use of the water in a different way and who do not enjoy the same rights of access try to stop us by putting obstacles in our way or occasionally by being abusive or violent. Clarity in the law might change the attitudes of these anti social, selfish and occasionally violent people and might make them discuss sharing instead of dictating what they think other people should do.

Incidentally just in case you had got the impression that we think everything you say is untrue that is not the case. You know as well as we do which things that you have said are not true and we understand as well as you do that perhaps out of malice you intend to try and make trouble for paddlers this winter by trying to get the EA to take actions that they have made very plain that they neither have the power to take nor indeed feel are necessary. This sits oddly with your very reasonable attitude to summer paddling and instance that if we are responsible we will be welcome outside the old traditional access agreement period.

Basically I am not sure that we understand where you are coming from with all this.
Chris Clarke-Williams
Location Basingstoke

Paddling Interests:
Touring, Coaching Beginners (I am an L2K), Surf White water trips, Weir Play (I'm not good enough to put freestyle!)

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