SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

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GaryM
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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by GaryM »

Fishguard,

I am sorry you feel this way, but unfortunately you appear to misunderstand what the 2005 study was asking. It was only asking, another wording could be researching, the public perception of whether the stated activities fitted well together. It did NOT ask if they were carried out.

As for your statements about the environment, you imply that I am not concerned about the environment, which is wishful thinking on your part I am afraid. I am involved in environmental work in my "spare time", and 2 of my children are working in cutting edge environmental areas, so please do not make such unfounded statements.

What I feel is most telling in your post is your last statement about the minority, do you feel that a majority can enjoy their chosen past-time even if it might have environmentally damaging effects? Possibly this should be an area where further research does need to be carried out to assess any such impact.

Personally I have no axe to grind against people who wish to go fishing, that is their choice, and I grew up in an area of the country where fishing was "big business" but never encountered any antagonism. I believe that provided we work together fishing and paddling can co-exist, but that there must be trust on both sides, and this is what needs to be built up, which is where the constant threat of "legal action" is counterproductive.

May I wish you well with your chosen activity, I hope you enjoyed yourself today, I certainly did, helping to protect sites for endangered burrowing bee colonies.
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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by shanclan »

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by Hobley »

Fg wrote:
The argument you are up against is Environmental, and there can be only one winner there!
Eh?? So best put your taxi away as you're killing polar bears and affecting some of the poorest people on earth by drought.

You can't pick and choose, we ALL effect the environment by consuming, as a cabby you probably comsume more than most in fossil fuel, so a little hypocritical, as you see a possible problem, as yet unproven, at only some very low water levels (said so yourself earlier) as being a bigger deal.

You still haven't commented on the case that what you want will cost jobs in Betws and contribute to destroying Welsh language and culture. But hey ho, as long as you're happy....

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by fishguard »

GaryM,

If you think I have implied you have no concerns for the Environment, it was not my intentions.

But it also very much sounds like you are implying that fishing is to blame for Environmental Damage, and research needs to be done on this.

Sounds a bot Tit for Tat to me.

You talk about the threats of legal action, I call it looking after our Environment.

What about the 5 Paddlers who took an old farmer to court, to try and get him prosocuted for assault on the upper Conwy (Padog)? on his own land!

I notice this is not splattered all over the UKRGB Forum.

And thank you for your interests on my day, I cleared two camp sites up today with my two Daughters, and collected two bin bags full of rubbish totalling 2hrs x three of us, to be logged down with Keep Wales Tidy.

We can all make a difference if we try, keep up the good work and well done.

Regards FG

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by fishguard »

Hobley
Eh?? So best put your taxi away as you're killing polar bears and affecting some of the poorest people on earth by drought.

You can't pick and choose, we ALL effect the environment by consuming, as a cabby you probably comsume more than most in fossil fuel, so a little hypocritical, as you see a possible problem, as yet unproven, at only some very low water levels (said so yourself earlier) as being a bigger deal.

You still haven't commented on the case that what you want will cost jobs in Betws and contribute to destroying Welsh language and culture. But hey ho, as long as you're happy....
So now you want to take on taxi Drivers, go ahead, I am a PRIVATE HIRE DRIVER big difference!

where have I quoted "very low water levels"

And please tell me what you want me to answer, How will I cost Jobs (what Jobs) and how will I destroy the Welsh Language/culture?

And as I have had a very Environmentally beneficial day, guess what "Hey Ho"I am happy.

Hope you had a good day too Hobley.

Regards FG

(Admin edit to fix broken quote tags - MikeB. Tony - you need to make sure your tags are like this [ quote] -the text- [ /quote] otherwise the board wont read it properly and it doesn't display as a "quote" in the quote box. I suggest you preview before posting and/or use the edit button to correct after posting.)

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by jmmoxon »

As mentioned elsewhere, Natural England have started research on the East Lyn, which involves the Environment Agency & National Trust, maybe this is what Fishguard is talking about. Alternatively it could be local research in North Wales.

The Game & Wildlife ConservationTrust are doing plenty of research on salmon around Poole Harbour: http://www.gwct.org.uk/research__survey ... efault.asp

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by Hobley »

Fg wrote: I am a PRIVATE HIRE DRIVER big difference!
Sorry, you must be the bio-diesel ones....

Where was i having a pop at taxi drivers? All I said we ALL have to take a portion of blame as we ALL consume.

As regard levels, you said:
If the E.A , Paddlers and Conwy Valley Fisheries can work out an acceptable (water level height)that would cause minimal damage and disruption to spawning fish, and either take out and put in around sensitive areas, then that might be a way forward


I guess low levels are out, and fair enough.

If you read what I said earlier, that's what i meant about jobs/culture etc. You remove kayakers in winter when every other car in betws seems to have boats on it, and hwyl fawr income.

However, you do seem to boast about your high enviro credentials a lot, are you clutching at straws for your case? Try telling that to the single mum on minimum wage in one of the shops in town. Sorry, but rightly or wrongly she has bigger day to day concerns. You drive her customers away, what will you tell her?

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by jmmoxon »

3.1.2.4 Redd or Juvenile Fish Disturbance
Trampling of redds during fishing and recreational activities has a potential to cause high mortality of salmonids. Most information on redd disturbance is anecdotal. However, one study of angler wading caused high mortality (43%-96%) of alevins (very young salmon that remain in the gravel) with only one or two passes per day. The extent or cumulative effects of this type of disturbance are not known (Roberts and White 1992).
Studies in Alaska and New Zealand (Horton 1994, Sutherland and Ogle 1975) have found that in shallow water where boat use is high, and especially where channels are constricted, developing salmon eggs and alevins in the gravel can suffer high mortalities as a result of pressure changes caused by boat operations, which can re sult in removal of gra vel or m echa nical sh ock ge nerate d in the area under the mid-line of the boat.
Studies done on the effects of jet sleds (power boats with jet units), drift boat, or kayak operation on the behavior and survival of free swimming juvenile salmon on the Rogue River have shown minimal effects, though beha vioral responses are observed when vesse ls pass directly overhead (especially nonmotorized kayaks or driftboats) (Satterwaithe 1995). Studies along the Columbia River indicated that the wake (uprush of the bow wave) of large ships (but not smaller vessels, e.g., tugs) caused significant numbers of chinook juveniles to be killed from being washed-up and stranded on sand bars and mud flats. Stranding was not observed on the Skagit River from jet sled use (K. Bauersfeld, WDFW, 1998, pers. comm.), nor on the Rogue River from private motorboat and commercial tour boat use (S atterwaithe 199 5).
Measures - Conservation recommendations to minimize the effects of anglers/vessels on salmon EFH include angler/vessel restrictions and/or closures in key spawning areas during the time frame when spawning is occurring and while eggs and alevins may be present in the stream substrate, and promoting angler
awareness of redd trampling. The states close important spawning reaches during spawning periods to protect spawning fish and their eggs.

http://www.pcouncil.org/salmon/salfmp/a14/99efh3.pdf Obviously more research needs to be done before we stand any chance of agreement, but anglers potentially cause more damage than kayakers.

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by fishguard »

Hi Mike - You are right more research needs to be done, but are wrong when you say Anglers cause more damage, NO ANGLERS ARE ANY WHERE NEAR THE REDDS OR GRAVELS DURING THE SPAWNING PERIOD AS THIS IS CLOSED SEASON "NO FISHING OR WADING TAKES PLACE"

A bit of a clue for you look when the research was done and where it was done!

It has no relivance on the river in Wales.

Hobley - as for clutching at straws, you dont need to look any further than Mikes posting ( no offence Mike) back to Hobley I still dont understand how what I do will effect the Welsh Language /culture, as for driving the single mums customers away HOW? I drive them away through my job as a private hire driver?(is that what you are getting at)or drive her customers away due to you guys obeying legislation?

Please clarify

Regards FG

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by banzer »

Is this thread still going??
A. Boater wrote:It's all Pierre's fault
www.neviscanoes.co.uk

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Kayaking good for fish

Post by jmmoxon »

From Edinburgh Evening News - Date: 04 September 2009
Kayak keeps fish in shelter
AN old kayak has been given a new lease of life as an underwater fish shelter at Deep Sea World in North Queensferry.

The sea kayak was donated to the aquarium by the members of a local Scout group. It has been sunk in the 4.5 million litre Underwater Safari.
Mike ;-)
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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by jmmoxon »

All the info below is from British fishing websites, so fishermen will be wading whilst eggs & young salmon are still in the gravel:
Generally spawning will occur during the period November-December in Great Britain and Ireland but may extend from October until late February in our larger rivers. The eggs remain within the nest until they hatch in late spring - five or six months later. The newly-hatched fish, which are known as alevins, remain within the gravel near to the nests for several more weeks. In May or June, the young fish - the new generation of fry - leave the shelter of the streambed to start life in the stream itself.
NO ANGLERS ARE ANY WHERE NEAR THE REDDS OR GRAVELS DURING THE SPAWNING PERIOD AS THIS IS CLOSED SEASON "NO FISHING OR WADING TAKES PLACE"
You can just about fish all year round for salmon in the UK and Ireland with the earliest opener being the Drowes in Eire which opens on the 1st of January and the latest closing date being 15th of December on the rivers of Devon and Cornwall which means that there are only 16 days a year when you cannot wet a line for salmon - beat that Kola and Alaska. The truth is salmon run 52 weeks of the year and the only (and very sensible) reason we don't fish all year is to let the salmon spawn in peace.
In fact Angling Clubs are trying "Experimental Extensions to the Salmon Angling Season on Rivers in North Wales – A Summary – August 2009"
http://www.hgt.gwynedd.gov.uk/SG/experi ... nsions.htm Fish can be caught (but must be returned) in the Seiont until end Nov & Conwy until mid Nov.

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by wezzzy »

You can find various sites saying what fish were caught on what days throughout the year, can fishermen (or people policing these rivers) say without doubt that these people do not damage the redds or disturb the spawning fish? They may be within the law by not targeting the out of season fish but does this have an impact?

For example
"G.M. from Usk, Tuesday 23 December, 2008
On fishing Glanwye: Comments : 63 grayling (biggest approaching 2lbs) and 4 chub (biggest about 4lbs) trotting. Very pleasant day." http://www.wyeuskfoundation.org/fishing/feedback.php

Glan Wye is on the Wye at Rhayader

The read up on the Upper wye says (From the same website)
"Located in the heart of Wales, this part of the river flows mostly over gravel, which along with the sparsely distributed trees, make it an ideal place to head for if you are looking for easy wading and access."

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by Hobley »

Fg, I'm off! I was only here as i hate injustice and bullies who threaten others.

As you seem unable to grasp simple statements it's a waste of time talking to you. You are unable to see the social damage you would like to do in the name of environment.

Little man syndrome is alive and well in you.

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by Jim Pullen »

fishguard wrote:GaryM,
What about the 5 Paddlers who took an old farmer to court, to try and get him prosocuted for assault on the upper Conwy (Padog)? on his own land!

I notice this is not splattered all over the UKRGB Forum.
There was a long topic about this if you search for it. My recollection was that this farmer allegedly resorted to physical action by pushing over a paddler and causing him to suffer damage to his fingers. This was correctly reported to the police as an alleged assault, but lack of evidence resulted in the farmer being found not guilty.
Done any NE/NW rivers not on the site? PM me!

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by MikeB »

And if anyone could be bothered to search back thro the mass of interminable repetition which this thread has become, you would find that Fishguard / Tony has ALREADY ref'd to this case - and has already been replied to. At least once.

Tony - if you must persist in this, can you at least find some new arguments?

Mike

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by fishguard »

MikeB/Jim

The Farmer was actually taken to court via a private prosecution by the Paddlers (after the CPS rejected it), and was found not guilty! I think the court costs came to around £3000 + expensive Paddle!

Sorry MikeB - must have missed your reply on this one last time.

Hobley - does that mean you wont be clarifying your questions to me ? I will miss your input on this thread.

As we are tightening up on SAFFA 1975 and Spawning beds, I am sure these Rivers you found the info on wading and extended seasons by Anglers ( which we do not partake in) will also be stopped, there is absolutely no excuse for anybody (be it Angler or Paddler) to cause Environmental damage whilst enjoying their sports.

Regards FG

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by quicky »

Atlantic Salmon numbers are in decline throughout northern and central Europe by up to 70% in 30 years.
So that must be the kayakers fault then....



I look forward to these reports. Maybe FG you'll tell me who they are going to be produced by as the EA know nothing about them.

As for Access in Wales, I believe one day it will come and when it does we can ALL get on with making use of our natural resources with a mutual respect with all users whatever they be doing, whatever there recreation interest.

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by MikeB »

fishguard wrote:The Farmer was actually taken to court via a private prosecution by the Paddlers (after the CPS rejected it), and was found not guilty! I think the court costs came to around £3000 + expensive Paddle!

Sorry MikeB - must have missed your reply on this one last time.
Oh sorry - had you asked me before? I suppose I must have missed it as I couldn't see the relevance then - and don't now.

But what IS relevant is the question YOU have been asked - and so far failed to be able to answer. When can we expect publication of the reserach work to which you constantly refer and in which you place so very much faith? That'll be the report of which the EA have confirmed they have no knowledge.

In responding (as I expect you will) could you ensure you give factual, proven and ideally scientific research rather than your personal opinion, views and repetition of things which you've been told by someone.

We're all entitled to our opinions - but in a situation like this where it's quite important that we deal with facts, perhaps your arguments would carry rather more weight were they to also carry some factual accuracy.

MIke.

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by MikeB »

fishguard wrote: As we are tightening up on SAFFA 1975 and Spawning beds, I am sure these Rivers you found the info on wading and extended seasons by Anglers ( which we do not partake in) will also be stopped, there is absolutely no excuse for anybody (be it Angler or Paddler) to cause Environmental damage whilst enjoying their sports.

Regards FG
I doubt it.

SAFFA wasn't and isn't intended for that purpose - no matter how you interpret it. Still - October will be here soon.

You're absolutley right about environmental damage. A pity that isn't applied on a broader basis. I don't want to repeat mentioning who I've observed causing the most damage. So I won't.

Mike.

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by janjakk »

MikeB wrote:
jamesl2play wrote:Ok Mike because it is so hard I will give you another clue. The little pic is on The angling Times website.
Ah! of course - it's something to do with the environment! It must be part of a bio-wotsit water filtration process - producing clean water from contaminated water by using reed beds further up the chain.

Mike.
Using bio-wotsit water filtration process is nice water filtration i done this before..


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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by fishguard »

MikeB wrote:
I doubt it.

SAFFA wasn't and isn't intended for that purpose - no matter how you interpret it. Still - October will be here soon.

You're absolutley right about environmental damage. A pity that isn't applied on a broader basis. I don't want to repeat mentioning who I've observed causing the most damage. So I won't.

Mike.
Hi MikeB - So you know best ? You are above our justice system, or has the 1988 prosecutions against Paddlers over SAFFA 1975 now become myth.

Conwy Rambler has already set you straight on this with facts, but yet again you try to twist and ignore it.

May I suggest you write again to the E.A and ask them straight, what will they do if Paddlers go over Spawning Salmon/Beds, after they have been advised not to, Ask them to put it in writting to you with their Name and contacts, so that it can be used to confirm to all Paddlers they are O.K to do so, and posted for all to see on UKRGB.

Then with no twists and turns from either side you will have all the information/answers you need.

Regards FG

(Admin edit to fix broken quote tags - MikeB)

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by quicky »

May I suggest you write again to the E.A and ask them straight, what will they do if Paddlers go over Spawning Salmon/Beds
Already done it and had a telephone conversation about it, and as that person did not send through the information they said they would the EA is doing so.

But they seem to say everything contrary to you FG. I wonder who I should believe.

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by shanclan »

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by fishguard »

Hi Quicky,

I doubt very much you worded you question to the E.A as I have suggested, but will await you posting with the answer off the E.A with their name and contacts.

As for who you should belive, you should belive in the justice system of our courts, the 1988 case proves this, if you are asked as they were not to disturb and go over Spawning Grounds, and continue to do so, you will end up being the latest most updated prosecuted paddler over SAFFA 1975.

I ask you again to write to the E.A and ask them what will happen if you ignore a request not to disturb Spawning Fish/gravel/beds, and continue to paddle anyway.

Just a simple easy letter to the E.A Fisheries guys (head of) will give you all you need to know.

Regards FG

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by MikeB »

shanclan wrote:Oh not thirty pages, surely? Not thirty pages....
Afraid so - much of it is merely repetition though. Tony just keeps on saying the same stuff - and we just keep proving that what he says isn't so.

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by fishguard »

MikeB,

You have proved nothing to one person (me) but are right in your posting Quoting We (you lot) I keep having to repeat SAFFA 1975 as that is what it is all about, but you obviously cant take it in!

Shame you cant type the E.A a letter and ask what I have suggested, you would save a lot of time and postings to me !

Shanclan - Wonder how many more pages we will be able to get to before October 31st, I think we will be discussing diffrent things then though!

Roll on 30 pages

Regards FG

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by wezzzy »

fishguard wrote: if you are asked as they were not to disturb and go over Spawning Grounds, and continue to do so, you will end up being the latest most updated prosecuted paddler over SAFFA 1975.
Regards FG
I know I shouldn't but can't resist.

I have been asked not to do lots of things by various people, never has it resulted in any kind of prosecution.
I was asked once not to climb on a building by the caretaker, I said no, I was not prosecuted.
I was asked 10 mins later by the police to stop climbing on the building, I said no, I was not prosecuted.
I was TOLD by the ploice that if I did not stop climbing on the building I would be arrested for breach of the peace, I got down and went on my way, I was not prosecuted.

Asking people not to do things is giving them the choice to answer yes or no, if you have the right to insist they stop and you inform them of any law they are breaking then they refuse then I am sure you would be able to take their details, pass it on to the relivant department and see what happened.

For your sake, don't arrest them as it could end up quite costly for you and the people you are patroling the rivers for.

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by MikeB »

fishguard wrote:MikeB,

You have proved nothing to one person (me) but are right in your posting Quoting We (you lot) I keep having to repeat SAFFA 1975 as that is what it is all about, but you obviously cant take it in!

Shame you cant type the E.A a letter and ask what I have suggested, you would save a lot of time and postings to me !
Oh dear. Tony - we're very bright people - we can work stuff out - and we've worked out that it's all bluster and threat. We're not posting asking your advice, just posting to point out that you're wrong. Well meaning, but wrong.

"We" (several of us) have asked the EA various questions - the EA doesn't confirm anything you've said and in some cases even confirmed what you and your friends have said is wrong and factualy inaccurate. What more do you want? Why don't you copy us in on YOUR contact with the EA and let us know what they've told you. In writing. With a name. Then there's a chance we might give you some credibililty.

As it stands Tony, you're just looking more and more like King Canute - and the tide is coming in.

It's really just as well that we have this wonderful new-fangled electronic stuff - just think if this was being done by old fashioned letters to the press. The sheer volumn of paper would have destroyed several forests by now - not so environmentally friendly. The only good thing about it would ahve been that a newspaper editor wouldn't ahve published your postings - he'd have wanted confirmation of accuracy - which he wouldnt have found.

It's quite nice chatting to you, but this really isn't going anywhere so I can only assume you must enjoy having people rise to your bait and respond. It's called attention seeking.

Sleep well - I'm off to bed.

Mike.

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Re: SAFFA 1975 Act, the new reason why we cannot paddle rivers

Post by wezzzy »

MikeB wrote: As it stands Tony, you're just looking more and more like King Canute - and the tide is coming in.
Mike.
Careful Mike,
you (Like many) do not see what Canute was trying to do, he was not trying to control the seas, he was trying to make his subjects see that he was only human and therefore could not control the sea.
Canute has been seen throughout history as a big head who tried to control things when he was actually trying to stop people seeing him as god like.
(Bu**er all to do with SAFFA but informative none the less)

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