Responses required

Inland paddling
Garry
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Re: Responses required

Post by Garry » Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:57 am

Our response should be in there (Bucks scout canoe club). Highlights that risk of uncertain legal situation and possible confrontation means risk assement (essential with youth groups) not feasible on anything but a couple of Welsh rivers currently thus severely restricting our use for youth development. Plenty of other responses seem to have highlighted that this risk of confrontation is real!

Andy B (of MCC)
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Re: Responses required

Post by Andy B (of MCC) » Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:45 pm

And there are more still to be posted - mine was submitted on Friday for which I received acknowledgement on Monday, but has yet to appear.

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James G
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Re: Responses required

Post by James G » Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:28 pm

Hi all,

The Sustainability Comittee are listening to evidence tomorrow. The EA and WCA are the first up.
Agenda:-

Sustainabilty Committee
Agenda: SC[3]-16-09
Date 24th September 2009
Time: 9:00- 11:00
Venue: Committee Room 1 Senedd

1: Introduction, Apologies and Substitutions [ 9:00-9:05 ]

2: Inquiry into Access to Inland Water Evidence Session [ 9:05-10:00 ]

Environment Agency

3: Inquiry into Access to Inland Water Evidence Session [ 10:00-11:00 ]

Canoe Wales

4 Paper to Note

James G

The Walnut Cracker
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Re: Responses required

Post by The Walnut Cracker » Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:00 pm

EA and CW evidence to Sustainability committee for tomorrows hearing can be seen at,
http://www.assemblywales.org/bus-home/b ... ?ds=9/2009

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Re: Responses required

Post by paddletastic2 » Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:19 pm

Interesting reading - From the Environment Agency's submission.
Disturbance of Spawning Fish
Whilst it is possible for many activities, including recreation, to impact on
spawning fish, and their spawning areas, we do not have evidence that
existing uses have a significant impact and believe that impacts can be
removed through good management.
It is an offence to wilfully disturb any spawn or spawning fish or any bed, bank or
shallow on which spawn or spawning fish may be. (S.2 of SAFFA)
Recreational activities take place throughout the year and may have adverse
impacts on the spawning success of individual fish, the quality of the spawning
substrate and the survival of eggs. However, there is little empirical scientific
evidence, either way, to demonstrate that significant damage does occur as a
result of most activities. When water levels are high in a river, simple passage of
canoes over spawning areas is likely to pose less of a risk than, for example, an
angler, canoeist or swimmer walking in a river for their activity, however even
these activities may be negligible compared to the many natural forms of
disturbance e.g. during flood conditions.
Our recent data from River Dee indicates juvenile salmon numbers in the
Afon Tryweryn have increased over the last 10 years. The Tryweryn is
one of the most heavily canoed/rafted rivers in the UK, where canoeing,
kayaking and rafting takes place on over 200 days a year under suitable
water flow conditions.

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quicky
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Re: Responses required

Post by quicky » Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:58 pm

Cannot open the WCA one.
Can anyone copy and paste it.

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andya
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WCA response

Post by andya » Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:03 am

quicky wrote:Cannot open the WCA one.
Can anyone copy and paste it.
its 33 pages mate ....


but .. for you ...
Overview
Water use in Wales is a public issue1. In more recent times the issue of access to and along water has
been represented exclusively as a debate between canoeing and angling. This representation only serves
to cloud the deeper public interest in accessing water. Further it over simplifies a complex and devalues
the role that other water users have on our rivers. This categorisation allows for emotive representation
to dominate over factual, environmental and practical issues.
Some individuals are keen to point out that “The Law” states there is no public right of access to water
in England and Wales. In fact there is no statute, overriding or apparent, which supports this and the
common law of trespass is not commonly used, if at all to prevent or manage access. There is a
commonly accepted interpretation which has been questioned recently which may be wrong2.
The reintroduction of recreational paddlesport post World War II saw the emergence of challenges to
access to water. At this time the Governing Body for Canoeing was led to believe by riparian owner that
agreement was needed to use the water. And acting in good faith this was done. Canoe Wales now
recognises that in creating private agreements with private individuals we may have been mislead and
as a result an unwelcome position over Wales’ natural resources has developed which has been shown
by other countries to be unnecessary.
The Inland waters of Wales were carved long before the emergence of modern society. Much as they do
today, historically our rivers, lakes and estuaries provided opportunities for transport, commerce,
sustenance, and recreation.
Whilst nature has and will continue to forge the path of rivers, man has developed a myriad of practices
to harness the power and gift of waterways. A classic example of this is the creation of Wales’s own
“native water craft” or “native canoe”: the Coracle. This iconic craft evolved into very different designs
for different river catchments. However, the Coracle, with a history of recreational use was
predominantly a craft that was utilised to catch fish for sustenance. Like many common place activities
use of inland water was rarely recorded explicitly in common publications3. Recently Coracle use has
been phased out or removed from many rivers by syndicate groups due to a perceived threat to fish
stocks.
The key point at stake for Wales is that its natural resources are finite. Unlike the Coracle makers of old
we have the ability to analyse, learn from and adapt designs from other success models across the
world. If this is undertaken then there is no reason why Wales cannot have an unambiguous access
position for water use that puts environmental concerns at the top of the agenda, whilst developing all forms of usage in a sustainable and coherent, managed manner. Every other devolved government in
the world has addressed this same issue and clarified the public position.
snip 9 pages ...
Conclusion
The law, with the exception of sporting rights is, for all parties, unclear and potentially unjust. It is
currently only repetition of untested opinions that enforces the conflict. The law as it stands is allowing
misunderstanding to permeate into what should be a beautiful natural resource.
There are many with neurological anchors that prevent them from embracing co operative use of inland
water. In turn there are many, whilst acting in good faith, who do not fully comprehend the full evidence
base and are being mislead by emotive arguments from those with unrealistic anchors to the perceived
status quo.
It is subjective interpretation of these issues which is causing polarised, unreferenced arguments at
every level from participant through to electoral representatives.
Modern understanding and interpretation of public rights is important to Wales for protecting the
environment, protecting private rights, promoting healthy recreation, rural regeneration, tourism and
business development.
The need to bring clarity is more important than ever. The need to protect the environment is
paramount; there is no mechanism or research to support this. With at least half the population
enjoying one of Wales most special assets, combined with agendas to increase this number close
scrutiny is needed now.
Wales must however recognise that its natural resources are finite. The management options available,
however, are not.
All forms of outdoor recreation are valuable for the nation’s health and wealth. There is no need, or
desire, to turn the outdoor environment of Wales in to an Olympic Park. However an Olympic Spirit of
sport for all, cooperation, health, prosperity and respect through recreation and sport are within reach
of Wales.
With Wales wanting to fulfil its position on the world stage, public access to and along inland water is
something which acts as a barrier for both participants and Wales.
Our Natural resources are second to none. It is time for us to recognise that the current management
of our inland waters, however, is not.
then 23 pages of appendix ...

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quicky
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Re: Responses required

Post by quicky » Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:36 am

Cheers Andy

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Strad
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Re: Responses required

Post by Strad » Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:49 am

I don't see my response listed :(

I wonder why not...
Old School?? I miss my AQII..
Graham Stradling

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quicky
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Re: Responses required

Post by quicky » Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:00 am

There are a few not listed.

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mole
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Re: Responses required

Post by mole » Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:22 am

This bit of the EA submission is wonderful to read
The Agency’s Experience of Facilitating Access
7.1 River Tryweryn
The Tryweryn is a highly designated river being home to freshwater pearl
mussels, salmon, otters, lamprey and other listed species. The upper reach of
the river is home to the National Whitewater Centre – Canolfan Tryweryn one
of the most intensively paddled pieces of water in the country. Canoeing and
rafting at the site takes place under elevated flow conditions created by
releases of water from Celyn Reservoir.
In 2005, we expanded the canoe access on our land holding on the lower
Tryweryn to give year round managed access. Initially, there was immense
resistance from local fishery interests, neighbouring landowners and
politicians.
Since then, the access has worked very well without the environment impacts
on the river predicted by the opponents of the change.
I love the smell of vindication in the morning, smells like....Victory
Sometimes it's just too much effor......aughhh

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Pam Bell
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Re: Responses required

Post by Pam Bell » Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:25 am

EA are being examined on their evidence now:

http://www.senedd.tv/liveplayer.jsf?b=f ... &r=stream4

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andya
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The EA evidence

Post by andya » Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:00 am

Listening now,

Interesting thing that EA said when asked, "why did access agreements used to work but now now". The guy from the EA said WCA might be unwilling to enter into agreements because the majority of Canoeists were not members of the NGB, and therefore WCA should not be asked to take on liability for something that is not entirely in their control.

When questioned "if access resulted in large increase in use, would there be enviormental impact"
EA's answer said this could be managed by local bylaws to control where and when and how the activity is done. Exactly as they already do for Fishing. So if there was a increase, then they would be concerned and look at controls required. But the laws are there already.

Talking about risks of infection control, been tackled by education. The EA thinks canoeist will steer clear if they know of any risks.

Talking financially now. "What is the Impacts if all users of waters been registered? say £100 per year for canoists, anglers ... etc, etc. " EA believe this would remove one of the areas of conflict at the moment, and level the playing field.
Then opposite - no-one pays anything - would result in the EA not been able to fufill their statutory fisheries protection, and use for education and policing. 70k fishing licenses sold to fishermen resident to Wales.




Overall the EA seem positive.

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Re: Responses required

Post by paddletastic2 » Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:10 am

Brilliant!!

The EA argument for voluntary agreements desceribed by one of the enquiry memebers as "Entirely devoid of reallity"

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quicky
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Re: Responses required

Post by quicky » Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:16 am

EA just said Anglers pay, canoeists do not.....

10:15 WCA about to start

Giving Ash a hard time...

The do seem to be going on and on about paying.

Byranion Williams said we are illegally paddling and cause trouble
Last edited by quicky on Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Chris_Eastabrook
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Re: Responses required

Post by Chris_Eastabrook » Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:48 am

This is really interesting to watch, if you can get online.

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morsey
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Re: Responses required

Post by morsey » Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:53 am

quicky wrote:Byranion Williams said we are illegally paddling and cause trouble
He referred to the illegal element.

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quicky
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Re: Responses required

Post by quicky » Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:02 am

Which is all of us accordig to some fishermen.
Poor Ash getting a right grilling!
Last edited by quicky on Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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andya
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WCA evidence

Post by andya » Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:08 am

Fantastic clarity comment from WCA ...

"Voluntary agreements do not work for securing access, but they do work to determine how access should be managed"


It seems to be going well at the moment ... Ash is doing OK.

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quicky
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Re: Responses required

Post by quicky » Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:15 am

They are doing a very good job at tripping Ash up.

Angela Burns or Brahms.... - Maybe I am being dense...
But all this is about Angling and Canoeing

11.25 All over

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Re: Responses required

Post by paddletastic2 » Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:29 am

Stirling job Ash. Well delivered, reasoned arguments.

Thank you for representing us all.

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shanclan
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Re: Responses required

Post by shanclan » Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:59 am

Good effort Ash. You did right not to challenge Angela B for her to paddle seven miles out and seven miles back on a Welsh River.

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quicky
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Re: Responses required

Post by quicky » Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:00 pm

I'd like to see her try!

Poor Ash was biting his tongue very well!

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Mike Mayberry
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Re: Responses required

Post by Mike Mayberry » Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:41 pm

I don't think she really seem to comprehend many of the points Ash was making. I was left wondering if any of them had read through the submissions made prior to the meeting by everyone, particularly when they asked for some of the documents!

Notice how they skipped pass his invite to see in person things working on the Tryweryn?

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quicky
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Re: Responses required

Post by quicky » Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:51 pm

They are Politicians and as such are only concerned with their own interests.

The was an awful lot of not listening to Ash.

E.g. the accounts lady only seemed interested in how they could make more money out of paddlers and other water users.

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andya
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Re: Responses required

Post by andya » Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:59 pm

Do we know the next steps? and when we can expect a decision from WAG??

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Re: Responses required

Post by paddletastic2 » Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:43 pm

Quicky wrote:
They are Politicians and as such are only concerned with their own interests.
I thought the chairman was very good at playing devils advocate and gettting to the crux of the argument. He was certainly exploring all angles and made it feel to me at least that there was an open process and fairness being applied.

What I did like was the enquiry panel member Alan? who gave everyone a hard time. He was rough on the EA and Ash. Left me feeling he was simply being investigative.

Mike Mayberry wrote:
I was left wondering if any of them had read through the submissions made prior to the meeting by everyone, particularly when they asked for some of the documents!
They must have had stacks of documents. It was the chairman that picked up on a particular document that he had seen and enquired where it was. He then asked for it to be provided in a more explicit format (in a round about way). Again I was encouraged that the chairman clearly had read the documents and was aware of the issues within the evidence.

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Re: Responses required

Post by mcneilljamie » Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:59 pm

<object width="525" height="250"><param name="movie" value="http://www.senedd.tv/main.swf?i=true&t= ... ram><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.senedd.tv/main.swf?i=true&t= ... 24_09_2009" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="525" height="250"></embed></object>

Ash starts from 1 hour 17minutes

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Re: Responses required

Post by mcneilljamie » Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:00 pm


NPearce
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Re: Responses required

Post by NPearce » Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:04 pm

Just picking apart Jamie's post, the direct link is here:

http://www.senedd.tv/main.swf?b=audio_3 ... 2009&t=256

Edit: Just noticed you beat me to it :)

Nathan

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