Responses required

Inland paddling
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ash74
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Responses required

Post by ash74 » Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:30 pm

Today the National Assembly for Wales launched its inquiry into Access to Inland Water.

There is a request for views to be submitted.

Details are available here.

As requested in the letter please circulate details of this to organisations or individuals who have an interest.

Ash
Last edited by ash74 on Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Chris_Eastabrook
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Re: Responses required

Post by Chris_Eastabrook » Tue Jul 21, 2009 5:58 pm

Done!

It only takes about 10 minutes.

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paddlersteve
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Re: Responses required

Post by paddlersteve » Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:23 am

Done mine too.

This is a great opportunity to put across some thoughts and a massive step forward to have the Welsh Assembly listening

Can we make this sticky?

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buck197
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Re: Responses required

Post by buck197 » Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:04 am

Tis done, come on guys take ten minutes to register your voices even if you are a tourist and would like to use these beautiful facilities.
Brian Taylor
Paddle Pirates

ash74
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Re: Responses required

Post by ash74 » Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:46 pm

Thanks for doing this.

I just want to be clear about 2 things. This opportunity will probably never occur again for Wales, if you want things to change, this is a democratic process which allows your voice to be heard.

The second thing is that this inquiry is being held by the National Assembly for Wales, not the Welsh Assembly Government (WAG).

WAG is Environment Agency(W), Countryside Council Wales etc all operating under a Ministerial steer.

The definition of NAW is:
"The National Assembly for Wales is the democratically elected body that represents the interests of Wales and its people, makes laws for Wales and holds the Welsh government to account."

It is a complicated piece of structure, but worth understanding.

pesdapress
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Re: Responses required

Post by pesdapress » Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:04 pm

Our response sent today. It's pretty quick and painless to voice your considered opinion as Chris says. Keep it short and sweet.

Pete

alienskayaker
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Re: Responses required

Post by alienskayaker » Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:43 pm

Just responded to this:

For help include (or indeed if you can't be bothered to write anything else) the statement below:

I am in agreement with the Petitions Committee's short inquiry into Access Along Inland Water, which has clearly highlighted the issues present and their recommendation that the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003 provides a useful basis from which a unique Welsh model of legislation could be developed.

Please lets get as many responses in as possible, we may not get another opportunity again

enjoyer
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Re: Responses required - Welsh Access Survey

Post by enjoyer » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:40 pm

Done.

alienskayaker - thank you for your words, I have used them.
Ash - thank you for highlighting.

Enjoy.

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Paul Stewart
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Re: Responses required - Welsh Access Survey

Post by Paul Stewart » Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:37 pm

Done, quite quick & easy to do.
Paul

RedFrame
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Re: Responses required - Welsh Access Survey

Post by RedFrame » Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:50 am

Hopefully just a quickie...

It's not a Survey, it's an Inquiry - that has been tasked with providing reccommendations to the National Assembly...!

You (as a forum) are being watched....http://www.flyforums.co.uk/showthread.p ... 858&page=9

Finally, this 50 year old campaign HAS NOW moved on to a NEW PLATFORM...

We as Kayakers, Canoeists, Wild Swimmers et al have a REAL chance of gaining legal, responsible, access to waterways currently denied to us by the "elite"....If you're fed up with petitions, then WAKE UP, this is not a petition... and send the evidence that the Welsh Govenment have asked you to send...before September 19th 2009..!

Good luck guys and gals...

Roll on the Welsh Land Reform Bill.....!!!!

Cheers
Red.

P.S. Ask all your mates to respond too..., it seems the FisherFolk even ask workmates that don't fish to get involved...:-(

andy g
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Re: Responses required

Post by andy g » Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:32 am

Done
On behalf of 165 members of Meridian Canoe Club
It took me a little longer than 5 minutes , but I feel the effort is justified.
If only we could have the same policies as Norway!
Andy

vagabond
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Re: Responses required

Post by vagabond » Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:38 pm

Can someone please check the mail (mail.to) address as I cant seem to get it to work.

Thanks.
breathe you are alive.
Free Tibet

tape34
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Re: Responses required

Post by tape34 » Fri Jul 24, 2009 3:34 pm

alienskayaker wrote: For help include (or indeed if you can't be bothered to write anything else) the statement below: .....
I realise you are trying to encourage people to write in but I know that individual responses are more valued. There's no rush for this to be done and cut and paste answers will probably get binned. There's a lot of crap flying about at the moment and most of what I've seen from the paddlers side has been measured and sensible comment, let's keep our standard high.

Pete Ball

fishguard
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Re: Responses required

Post by fishguard » Sun Jul 26, 2009 11:11 am

Hi Ash,

Just a quick question, how long are you expecting this change in the law for access to inland water ways to take? as from what I can gather it could take up to four years before it will even get to the MP`S and then could be stopped dead in its tracks. A long time for paddlers to be advised by the WCA/CW not to enter into access agreements with local Angling Clubs, especially as this is what, afer four more years of waiting, you will probably be told you have to do anyway!

Hope is a good thing, false hope is not.

Regards Fishguard

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parksey
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Re: Responses required

Post by parksey » Sun Jul 26, 2009 11:28 am

fishguard wrote:Hi Ash,

Just a quick question, how long are you expecting this change in the law for access to inland water ways to take? as from what I can gather it could take up to four years before it will even get to the MP`S and then could be stopped dead in its tracks. A long time for paddlers to be advised by the WCA/CW not to enter into access agreements with local Angling Clubs, especially as this is what, afer four more years of waiting, you will probably be told you have to do anyway!

Hope is a good thing, false hope is not.

Regards Fishguard
If we had had that attitude at Dunkirk we would all be speaking German right now.

Change will come but only if we keep fighting for it.

Age old saying if you don't ask you don't get.
What could possibly go wrong?

fishguard
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Re: Responses required

Post by fishguard » Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:55 pm

Hi Parksey,

Is that implying you are at war with the Anglers?

All I was saying is, you should think before cutting all ties with Anglers and agreements, as Ashley knows some of these agreements used to work and could do again.

Four years is a long wait, getting around the table takes a few weeks to arrange!

It does not look good on your behalf, saying it is not your policy to enter into access agreements.

Regards Fishguard

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HAZA
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Re: Responses required

Post by HAZA » Sun Jul 26, 2009 5:07 pm

I am having problems with the Email link can anyone help.
Mark

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RichA
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Re: Responses required

Post by RichA » Sun Jul 26, 2009 6:15 pm

fishguard wrote:you should think before cutting all ties with Anglers and agreements, as Ashley knows some of these agreements used to work and could do again.


It does not look good on your behalf, saying it is not your policy to enter into access agreements.
Read 'some' as 'very few', in my opinion at least. I'm sure a fishermans opinion might be somewhat different. As for thinking, we've had over 20 years for that.

As for war, that's your word. I'd prefer to call it a fight for rights, which I believe we already have and just need clarifying in law.

You come across as quite desperate to hold on to access 'agreements' now that there looks like there will be another option. These 'agreements' have not worked, in over 20 years of trying. Time for change.

afer four more years of waiting, you will probably be told you have to do anyway!
In your opinion maybe, not mine.



I'll be sending in my comments this week. It'll be hard to keep it brief!

fishguard
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Re: Responses required

Post by fishguard » Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:32 pm

Hi RichA,

Fight/war not much diffrence, as for desperate, I for one am not as I already have my rights and I can take it or leave it with access agreements, it wont effect me in the slightest, as for the distant future when this attempt in the change in the law actually gets to the decision makers, and even IF it goes in the paddlers favour, it still wont effect me, because I think you will find the E.A will be controlling you.

So in my view of someone who was trying to HELP and work towards an access agreement with you guys, I think personally that Paddlers being controlled via E.A legislation/By Laws is a much more appealing option!

If Access agreements, meant you had some restriction, get ready for a whole lot more when the E.A control you, as they do with the Anglers, and rightly so, you cant ever put a price on protecting our Environment .

Good luck, and let me know if you ever want to discuss Access Agreements again, but not after you win/lose in your attempts at this change in the law!

Regards Fishguard

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quicky
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Re: Responses required

Post by quicky » Mon Jul 27, 2009 8:21 am

fishguard
Access is NOT and Angling V Canoeing debate and the sooner you stop trying to stir things up and make it one the better as all you are doing is alienating angling more.

Access for all is about access for ALL - Walkers, Mms and toddlers wanting to paddle, paddlers and anglers.

Eveyone gets on fine with responsible behaviour and respect to each other in every other country in the world so why not England and Wales!

fishguard
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Re: Responses required

Post by fishguard » Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:38 am

Hi Quicky,

If you read my posts, my interest is in access agreements with paddlers, if paddlers take this offer of a sensible debate as desperation on ny behalf, then of course I will respond to suit.

Access for Anglers and Paddlers, Anglers already have legal access, that is why agreements can legally get paddlers on the rivers - FACT.

Or you can put all your hopes into a change in the law, and that could put on another 4 years of illegally gaining access to the rivers, whilst you are waiting/hoping for this change to develope!

So stir things up quicky, I am not, trying to talk sense, I am.

Regards Fishguard

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RichA
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Re: Responses required

Post by RichA » Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:48 am

fishguard wrote:I for one am not [desperate] as I already have my rights and I can take it or leave it with access agreements, it wont effect me in the slightest.
Then why are you so bothered about what goes on for everyone else that uses the waterways, if it won't effect you in the slightest?

As Quicky said it's not a fight (or war as you call it) between paddlers and anglers, but a search for (sensible) open access for everyone. Every single argument you have put forward on here has been in a paddlers vs. anglers stance. Try opening up a little and expanding your view to include everyone else that wants to use the waterways in England and Wales as well.
I think personally that Paddlers being controlled via E.A legislation/By Laws is a much more appealing option!
I completely agree. Paddlers being controlled by genuine environmental concerns is much more appealing than being controlled by anglers. Suits me!
another 4 years of illegally gaining access to the rivers
So are you saying we're being illegal at the moment, and that I was in fact breaking the law when I paddled the Swale last weekend? I think you'd surprise a lot of smiling people who watched me if you told them I was being illegal. So why haven't I been taken to court? Oh yeh, I remember...


Anyway, thanks again for bringing more attention to this thread! ;-)

fishguard
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Re: Responses required

Post by fishguard » Mon Jul 27, 2009 2:29 pm

Hi RichA,

I am concerned about the Environment, and I too will welcome Paddlers along with Anglers being controlled via the E.A. legislation/by laws.

I am keen for access agreements, so that we don`t have to continue bickering for years to come whilst you are waiting upon the success or failure in your quest for access to inland waterways.

I just dont understand why you have an access officer in the WCA/CW, when it is not in their policy to enter into access agreements, maybe you could enlighten me on this?

As for you on the Swale last weekend, I am not sure whether or not any agreement is in place there, but if not then you are breaking the law, even if it is only a civil offence, it is still trespass and if the land owner wished, could take you through the courts. And like I said in an earlier post if it is not illegal why are paddlers trying to have the law changed now?

As for the people smiling at you from the banks, my kids smile when I take them to the Circus! any connections? sorry RichA couldnt resist that one, only joking.

Regards Fishguard

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quicky
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Re: Responses required

Post by quicky » Mon Jul 27, 2009 2:33 pm

must be fun trolling all day...

jamesl2play
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Re: Responses required

Post by jamesl2play » Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:25 pm

Is it me or has this thread been deliberately hijacked? most of this has been discussed in numerous topics across the Board.

I was going to leave it at that but I have just read todays Daily Express.

Quote from one letter writer: So the last thing we need is a torpedo like charge through our environment by some IDIOT in a canoe. So says Mr B Hanson of Rickmansworth.

In 1969 a group of us were harassed off the River Mole in Surrey by a bunch of macho fisherman who had bricks and sticks as weapons. Nothing has changed in 40 years apart from the invention of the plastic boat which allows more people to bounce down a river. With the above letter writers typical attitude its difficult to see how it will change in the next 40 years let alone four. So keep paddling and well done Griff.

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Paul Stewart
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Re: Responses required

Post by Paul Stewart » Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:46 pm

Fishguard, if you believe access over water is trespass, perhaps you can enlighten us as to where in law this is written? This is why I don't consider my actions illegal as no one has been able to provide solid evidence that my acts are. Perhaps this is why in the last 20 years, no one has been taken to court?
Paul

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RichA
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Re: Responses required

Post by RichA » Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:30 am

fishguard wrote: As for you on the Swale last weekend, I am not sure whether or not any agreement is in place there, but if not then you are breaking the law, even if it is only a civil offence, it is still trespass and if the land owner wished, could take you through the courts. And like I said in an earlier post if it is not illegal why are paddlers trying to have the law changed now?
Changed? Maybe. Clarified? Yes.

You have near enough answered your own question there. There is an ambiguity, or rather a simple uncertainty about the law - that's why we are trying to get it clarified. Changing the law? Who said that? The law is unclear at the moment and might just need clarifying. Do you truly believe that it is illegal for us to paddle, for kids to splash in the streams and to float around on a river in a rubber dinghy? As for the landowners involved, that's a different story to the right to paddle, especially considering public footpaths were used.

In fact I think you are just plain confused to be honest. Are you talking about accessing rivers by passing over land, or actual access to the water once on it? If you're talking about it being trespass to be on the water (as opposed to walking on land to get to the river) then please please show us why you think that!
I am keen for access agreements, so that we don`t have to continue bickering for years to come whilst you are waiting upon the success or failure in your quest for access to inland waterways.
We've had twenty odd years of arguing it seems - what difference will another few years make? The general public have everything to gain, and it seems you have everything to lose. Why else would you be trying to negotiate access agreements now?

I'm just eternally grateful that it appears to be fishermen who make threats and appear aggressive, while paddlers and all other water users I know of generally appear to be peaceful and non-provocative. The more it's brought to public attention the more everyone else will see this as well. So thanks fishguard for once again attracting yet more views to this thread and the link at the top of it ;-)

Anyway, like James has hinted this has been done to death and nothing in terms of laws one way or another has been supplied by anglers so far. Enjoy your fishing.

fishguard
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Re: Responses required

Post by fishguard » Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:29 am

Hi RichA,

Thanks for that, I did have a good days fishing yesterday, 3 fish caught and returned.

Our club went into an access agreement with WCA years ago, and not just at present and because of the paddlers petition, we have had numerous meetings with, land agents, E.A`s Matt Strickland, Ashley Charlwood, Natinal Trust, Police etc to try and work towards an agreement, only to be told its not WCA`S policy to enter into access agreements.

And until the law is clarified to suit yourselves, then yes you are breaking the laws of trespass each time you access the waters over somebodies private property without their permission.

Or for another example when you access any parts of the Conwy River that is within the SSSi`s designated area, which under CCW`s guidance, that all Canoeists/Kayakers must keep to an agreed access route, which at present would be a bit hard for you as their is NO agreed access route!

Which is not down to the Anglers as you put it, but down to the governing body of CCW`s legislation, and WCA/CW for not entering into access agreements.

So yes I am glad to be attracting more views to this thread, and that if you are succesful in opening up the welsh waterways to peaceful swimmers,kiddies paddling,and oh yeh nearly forgot Tomb stoners, bridge jumpers, drunk abbusive gangs visiting and littering up quite villages to go cliff jumping, Hope the Police and Council Enforcement workers are as grateful to you guys for the extra work loads, when you gain a free ticket for the above, and you ask why I am in favour of Local Access agreements, visit U tube and type in Bridge Jumpers.

But none of this matters to you as you will have what you wanted, no matter what the Environmental consequences are to the Rivers.

Happy Paddling!

Regards Fishguard

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RichA
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Re: Responses required

Post by RichA » Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:53 am

My last comments to you on this subject as I can see your mind will not be swayed. One of the reasons for clarifying the law, and changing it if necessary.
And until the law is clarified to suit yourselves, then yes you are breaking the laws of trespass each time you access the waters over somebodies private property without their permission.
I have been talking about access on the water, not access to the water over land.
drunk abbusive gangs visiting and littering up quite villages to go cliff jumping
Clutching at straws maybe? Don't kid yourself, they would do that whether there was a law allowing it or not.
fishguard wrote: no matter what the Environmental consequences are to the Rivers.
This is absolutely not what we intend, and you know it. Time and time again we say that we will accept agreements that are based on genuine environmental concerns. This has not happened, so now we are looking to get laws passed that are based on those valid environmental concerns, of which there do not appear to be all that many. W266 was a good start to that process.

One last question to you - where do you fish? I'll be sure to nod and wave if I ever see you there.

Goodbye.

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James G
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Re: Responses required

Post by James G » Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:28 am

Hi all,

Though I'd draw your attention to this.
Announcement on behalf of the Welsh Salmon & Trout Angling Association, recognised by the Welsh Assembly Government as the governing body for Game Angling in Wales.

RAFTS AND CANOES – PROBLEMS ON OUR RIVERS - HERE IN WALES

Those of us who were at the Royal Welsh Show (RWS) and who attended the Welsh Assembly Government’s Sustainability Committee launch of its ‘Inquiry into Access to Inland Water in Wales’ were deeply shocked, disturbed and bewildered with the way members of this committee – i.e. our representatives – are looking at the issue of access to water in Wales.

We knew that the Petitions Committee had looked favourably at the canoeists’ request for free access to our rivers (and had travelled to Scotland to gather evidence) - but the realisation that members of the Sustainability Committee too are looking very favourably at the rafters and canoeists request for open and free access to Welsh rivers was a major blow for us anglers - and if we - as anglers - are not careful we will lose everything we have worked for and which we hold dear.

In other words we have been put on RED ALERT and it is time for us to act. In fact there is very little time for us to act but it is imperative that every single club and indeed every single angler takes this issue very, very seriously - NOW - and responds positively as we are in danger of seeing on our rivers what is already happening in Scotland – Inland waters that are Free for All – and not just for canoeists..

The question we need to ask ourselves is whether we would be happy with such a situation – if not then action is called for – not by the ‘club down the road’ and not by ‘someone else’ but by each and every one of us. The Sustainability Committee will receive written evidence up to 19th September

We sent ‘Pledge Forms’ out to clubs before the RWS – and we are attaching them again today – please get them photocopied and signed – we need at least 10K signatures supporting our stance – we only have 3K signatures to date. Please get all your members out there looking for signatures and support. We say angling has more participants than any other sport – let’s prove it.

Also get in touch with your Assembly Member - get a representative group of your club members together with farmers through whose land your river runs to meet him/her at his/her surgery and present your case honestly and sincerely. Get all your members to write individually to them – Bombard them with your views – you are their constituents (the majority of the canoeists reside outside Wales). OUR AMs need to know how WE feel – and all anglers in Wales need to speak and act as one.

I don’t know whether you heard of the intervention of the TV celebrity Griff Rhys Jones into the access issue. He openly encouraged canoeists to disturb as may fishermen as possible

It is apparent that we anglers must make a stand. We just cannot allow the rafters and canoeists to push us off the rivers, streams, ponds and lakes of Wales – thereby gaining free and unfettered access to our waters for 365 days a year.

Please treat this problem as URGENT and get your club members to act. Sign the Pledge Forms – Visit your AMs – Make your feelings known – NOW.

What have you done to support your river, your water? What has your club done? What can you do together? Please, Please - Act Now. (Sorry to sound so emotional – but time is of the essence)

Moc & Julia
__________________

James G

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