Fishermen and environment

Inland paddling
fishguard
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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by fishguard »

Hi All,

You are right in what you say that the E.A SAFFA 1975 legislation was never intended, for the use against Paddlers, but that will still not exclude you from being prosecuted by it, and as for the warning letters recieved by the paddlers from Bangor uni, you can tame them down as much as you like, saying there was no evidece ( on this occassion) but you recieved the letters non the less, and the E.A do not issue warning letters for no reason.

As for Bailiffs/ Enforcement Officers, being the only ones allowed to question, people on the rivers, I think you will find that is untrue, as any person witnessing an offence being committed, is capable of taking evidence via photos, vehicle regs etc and contacting the relevant authorities to take action, as was the case above with the Bangor paddlers!

I personally would prefer, to see us all being able to enjoy our activities, and working together to look after our rivers, as you cant put a price on Environmental damage, which we are all to blame for.

We are not asking for you to stop paddling the rivers, but we all must adhere to the rules, and via information pages/rules and codes of conducts wich Anglers,Paddlers,Gorge walkers,rafters,swimmers must follow, surely this must be a way to move forward?

Regards Fishguard

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RichA
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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by RichA »

Fishguard, I have one question for you, that I hope you might take the time to answer. If it is such a clear cut case that kayakers (and eveyone else like canoeists, rafters etc) cause damage and are acting illegally by paddling over spawning grounds, then why has nothing happened? I'm talking about court action/arrest/sueing etc against individuals. Thanks for any comments you have.

As for negotiation, as I'm sure you're aware 'we' have spent over 20 odd years negotiating for access in England and Wales, and it has gained very very little. Time now for government action, and it seems most of 'us' believe that WAG/government action will help 'us' and every other potential water user.

...has it ever crossed your minds that some of us do actually protect the rivers, and put in a lot of voluntary time and effort in doing so...
Yes, of course it has, and we've seen evidence for it. As have other people seen evidence for 'kayakers' (and other groups) doing the same. Unfortunately it's the small minority (on both sides) that seem to spoil things. I personally am fully supporting legal movement and legislation, even though I have never once had a bad encounter with a fisherman or any other water user. However, I know of beginners and clubs that have been put off paddling rivers due to intimidation by other river users, and I won't stand for this, hence my complete support of the campaign for fair river access. Thanks for your contribution, and welcome to the forum. I hope you don't get put off by comments on here, but as I'm sure you can appreciate people are very passionate about their sport, as you are about yours I imagine. Anyway, we all like a good argument, so stick with it! :-)


Edit -
We are not asking for you to stop paddling the rivers, but we all must adhere to the rules, and via information pages/rules and codes of conducts wich Anglers,Paddlers,Gorge walkers,rafters,swimmers must follow, surely this must be a way to move forward?
Yes, completely agree, and it is these rules that we hope to get set out in legislation for everyone to observe.

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MikeB
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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by MikeB »

fishguard wrote: I personally would prefer, to see us all being able to enjoy our activities, and working together to look after our rivers, as you cant put a price on Environmental damage, which we are all to blame for.
Excellent. The biggest step forwards then will be if you instruct your fishing friends to accept that just because they have paid to be allowed to fish on a river, they don't have the RIGHT to try and prevent anyone else from using the same bit of water.

By way of a practical example, you will note that the great majority of paddlers will do their very best to avoid an angler they encounter on the river. We expect that evicence of your new stance on shared usuage, as you've outlined above, will see anglers moving to the side of the river to allow us to pass freely.

It's the same old debate, every time. The sooner England and Wales catches up with Scotland and passes legislation that effectivly controls the narrow minded vested interests which plague this country, the better.

The latest "weapon" you are employing seems to be legislation of which we are well aware. Trying to scare people by waving legislation around just doesn't work. It's illegal to exceed 70 mph on the motorway - that doesn't stop people speeding. What does stop them is being caught, prosecuted and receiving an appropriate punishment IF they are guilty.

That nobody has yet even been prosecuted under the legislation you are so freely waving around suggests rather strongly that there might be a good reason for that, and that's because nobody has broken any laws. And that's despite the best efforts of the people with vested interests in having them prosecuted.

Just one small point. There is a strong suggestion that the Scottish access legislation came to pass in large part because McConnel's govt was so incensed by the way Scottish landowners used the Foot and Mouth crisis to shut off public access, and then procrastinated about re-opening that access once the risk had gone away.

See any similarities?

Mike.

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Pete the kayaker
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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by Pete the kayaker »

fishguard wrote:I personally would prefer, to see us all being able to enjoy our activities, and working together to look after our rivers, as you cant put a price on Environmental damage, which we are all to blame for.
I agree with you here, we should all be able to enjoy the natural environment in our way with the proviso's that we do not destroy what we come to enjoy and respect other river users.
fishguard wrote:We are not asking for you to stop paddling the rivers, but we all must adhere to the rules, and via information pages/rules and codes of conducts wich Anglers,Paddlers,Gorge walkers,rafters,swimmers must follow, surely this must be a way to move forward?
Yes, indeed, so long as they are mutually agreed rules/codes that benefit all and not impositions made by one sport on all others for it's own peculiar advantage.
fishguard wrote:You are right in what you say that the E.A SAFFA 1975 legislation was never intended, for the use against Paddlers, but that will still not exclude you from being prosecuted by it, and as for the warning letters recieved by the paddlers from Bangor uni, you can tame them down as much as you like, saying there was no evidece ( on this occassion) but you recieved the letters non the less, and the E.A do not issue warning letters for no reason.
Was the reason the EA sent the letters that the offence had been alleged against these kayakers? Anyone can make such allegations however (in)valid. Which particlar redds were they disturbing? Kayakers have been subject to plently of intimidation in North Wales before, so I wouldn't be suprised if false allegations of disturbing spawning beds made to the EA is just not a new tactic of this. I'm not saying this is the case in this instance (or condoning disturbing the beds), as I'm not party to the details, but merely trying to explain our sceptism about this issue.
fishguard wrote:As for Bailiffs/ Enforcement Officers, being the only ones allowed to question, people on the rivers, I think you will find that is untrue, as any person witnessing an offence being committed, is capable of taking evidence via photos, vehicle regs etc and contacting the relevant authorities to take action, as was the case above with the Bangor paddlers!
Yes, many of us have experienced this type of intimidation before and it will probably continue - you guys must feel so proud!
*Fringe Extremist*

Glyn B
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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by Glyn B »

As a matter of interest, have there been any reported incidents of anglers being intimidated by other water users?

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Robert Surrey
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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by Robert Surrey »

Strad wrote:@ Robert Surrey.

Point 1 - Wild Swimmer Pete doesn't kayak or canoe he's an outdoor swimmer and wild swimmers suffer from the same stories on access that anglers tell canoeists too. We have tried to talk on access for years and it gets us no where, because all said and done much on the angling side relates to £££s, and greed blinkers peoples views.

Point 2 - Whichever way you want to slant your story, many of us paddle around the world and don't get the hassle from anglers that we receive in england / wales, yet the rivers are not unique as some try to say.

Point 3 - I fish, although I do it for food, but I know the thrill of catching a big fish. In fact the biggest I've caught was a Salmon caught from a kayak on Lake Michigan and it tasted magnificent cooked about 20 minutes after being caught. The rise in the knowledge that kayak fishing works is really another nail in the coffin for the kayak disturb the fish hogwash.

Point 4 - as people often do on forums you are throwing dirt at everyone who comes here when we are a group of individuals, I doubt you would behave the same to our faces. I hold my own views on both access and fishing, I haven't expressed them before in this thread so why do you assume to know what I think?

Point 5 - if you want to chill a little and just stick to reasoned argument rather then personal abuse like you are throwing at Adrian you are far more likely to get a good response.
Point 1.
What are you telling me this for?
His name kind of gives away his pastime and I've not mentioned him or directed any of my posts towards him.

Point 2.
I couldn't agree more. I see no reason why we in ths country can't get along in the same manner as abroad. But as I have tried to point out at times boaters as a group are our own worse enemy and play into the hands of Fishermen and EA groups who would use our actions against us.

Point 3.
Sounds wonderful. Kayaks were originally designed as fishing craft so why would they distrub fish ? I have never said or implied that they do I merely pointed out how kayaking over a spawning bed could be classed as disturbance.

Point 4.
I have no idea who you are or what your views are and have never at any time assumed that I do. However some people on here are much more forthcoming with their views so I can quite happily comment on theirs without assumption.
And another point I speak as I find and if I disagree with something you or anyone else has said I'll tell you whether to your face or via the internet.

Point 5.
Adrian claims to be a "live and let live" kind of guy but just from reading his comments in this one thread (let alone all the other one sided blinkered rubbish he has posted on other similar threads)he has shown himself to be anything but.
I have nothing personnal against the man but as previously stated the venom aimed at Anglers on this forum appals me.
If we as a group didn't scrape down damp rock in the fishing season then a lot of the confrontation between out two fraternities would be avoided.
Now remove the blinkers and remember there are two sides to every argument. We don't have a devine right to exclusive use of the rivers and nor do fishermen. Lets all be nice and get along.
Life is short. Filled with stuff.

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RichA
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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by RichA »

Robert Surrey said:
If we as a group didn't scrape down damp rock in the fishing season then a lot of the confrontation between out two fraternities would be avoided.
Do you really believe this? I absolutely don't.

Possibly your meant: "If we as a group didn't paddle in the fishing season then a lot of the confrontation between out two fraternities would be avoided." ?

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Robert Surrey
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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by Robert Surrey »

RichA wrote:Robert Surrey said:
If we as a group didn't scrape down damp rock in the fishing season then a lot of the confrontation between out two fraternities would be avoided.
Do you really believe this? I absolutely don't.
Yes I do because if we went paddling out of the fishing season then there'd be no fishermen there. Also by only paddling when rivers are in flood, even if during the fishing season, then likewise few if any anglers would be there.
Paddling in low water during the fishing season, apart from being no fun, is just asking for confrontation and giving ammunition to angling and EA groups who claim we damage river beds / spawning ground etc.
I religiously stick to this and have never had any problems with anglers.
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Pete the kayaker
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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by Pete the kayaker »

Robert,

Are you a fisherman who happens to kayak or canoe?

I have paddled in the fishing season, most of the time with no problems as most of the fishermen have not been a problem. Nevertheless, I have endured some nastiness from some of them, such as intimidation, verbal abuse, physical assault and vandalism to my property. What gives them the right to do this?

I refuse to define the time that I can enjoy my sport by the 'closed season' of another pastime. By agreeing to this we would eventually be 'allowed' on the rivers for just a couple of weekends a year (Do you know about/remember the access "agreements" for the Dee?). This does not mean that I am environmentally unaware or insensitive. I will go when the levels are high enough - might even get a blast in this w/e ;)

Rich A's point is that there are not hordes of kayakers scraping down low rivers in the fishing season, not that no boating is done in this time.
*Fringe Extremist*

fishguard
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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by fishguard »

Hi Pete,

Yes I do feel proud, proud of our rivers, that is why I spend hours a week cleaning the banks, reporting pollution problems, catching poachers, assisting E.A Enforcement Officers, etc etc, I very rarely have time to go fishing as I am too busy doing the above, and on the odd occassions I do go, I return the majority of the fish I catch, and only take what my family intend to eat.

I am very passionate about my role as voluntary River Keeper (as pathetic as this may sound to some of you), just as you are about your sport, and have no intentions of intimidating paddlers, in fact I have a few friends who are paddlers, but I will not turn a blind eye to paddlers coming down in low waters, or coming down over spawning beds in high or low waters, neither will I turn a blind eye to Anglers commiting similar offences.

My role as River Keeper, I have taken on because the E.A have an insuffient amount of Bailiffs, to look after our rivers in wales, and I would like to think we can and do make a difference to the quality of our waters, I am not a wannabe Bailiff, otherwise I would have called myself river Bailiff, and have no intentions of confronting, you guys enjoying your sports, as long as you do it without causing damage.

Also I would not expect paddlers to have pay to enjoy their sport, but would expect organisations that are going to, or do run businesses on our rivers, to make an annual contribution for their upkeep.

I do not think it unreasonable to ask, you guys to stick to some agreed rules, and be recognised on our rivers. The only ones I can see having a problem with this, are the ones intent on breaking them.

So pete next time you are enjoying drifting down our rivers (and rightly so) please spare a thought for the ones who are looking after them!

I am not on here to argue with you.

Regards Fishguard

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Robert Surrey
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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by Robert Surrey »

Pete the kayaker wrote:Robert,

Are you a fisherman who happens to kayak or canoe?

I have paddled in the fishing season, most of the time with no problems as most of the fishermen have not been a problem. Nevertheless, I have endured some nastiness from some of them, such as intimidation, verbal abuse, physical assault and vandalism to my property. What gives them the right to do this?

I refuse to define the time that I can enjoy my sport by the 'closed season' of another pastime. By agreeing to this we would eventually be 'allowed' on the rivers for just a couple of weekends a year (Do you know about/remember the access "agreements" for the Dee?). This does not mean that I am environmentally unaware or insensitive. I will go when the levels are high enough - might even get a blast in this w/e ;)

Rich A's point is that there are not hordes of kayakers scraping down low rivers in the fishing season, not that no boating is done in this time.
@ Pete the Kayaker.
If you'd have bothered to read my previous posts in this thread you'd have seen this hope it answers your question.

Mike R.
Robert Surrey wrote
"I'm a boater and have never been fishing in my life but Ill defend to my dying breath the right of people to go fishing if they chose to do so.
The venom on here aimed at Anglers appals me.
I posted those links to try and make people see that some (not all) boaters are equally as misguided as some people seem to think anglers are.
Scraping down very low rivers isn't a great advert for the sport is it? And it only serves to give ammunition to those anglers who want to prohibit boaters from our rivers. So why do it especially during the fishing season.
And Adrian coopers assertion that it's the Etive and has no migratory fish so doesn't count claim is utter utter b#ll#cks as are most of his blinkered narrow minded negative posts. Selfish misguided paddlers can be found scraping down low rivers all over the country any given weekend of the year.
Do our sport a favour and stay at home until it rains or until the fishing season closes."

I'm not telling anyone when they can / can't paddle I'm certainly not saying don't paddle during the fishing season but I am saying don't paddle in low water during the fishing season.(ok so maybe I'm telling people when not to paddle a bit)
I too am hoping for a blast down a river tomorrow but with predicted rain fall / flood levels I don't anticipate any fishermen being out.

Have a good weekend and stay safe.
Robert.
Last edited by Robert Surrey on Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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quicky
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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by quicky »

but would expect organisations that are going to, or do run businesses on our rivers, to make an annual contribution for their upkeep.
Are you going to start asking the hillwalkers to pay for the hills as well.

Some people do seem to have this Bee in their bonnet that we do not pay for the upkeep or rivers.

B.C.U, W.C.A and S.C.A member do pay to be in those organisations and money from that goes to buy licences.

Also 60% of the money going to the EA is from Taxpayers so we ALL pay for the EA to help fishing interests.

This Whole argument though is NOT about paddlers verses Anglers...

It IS about opening up access to rivers for ALL users whatever your interest or passtime is.
Responsible Access for All.

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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by dogger_dave »

Fishguard,
The problem with "agreed rules," is who makes them. They tend to be sets of rules made by anglers, telling canoeists when and where they can paddle. They are therefore not "agreed." Also, there is no indication (in law or anywhere) that canoeing/kayaking in a river constitutes wilful damage; it is therefore not an offence. This is reflected in the EA's warning letters, which warned those involved not to break the law by wilfully damaging spawning beds; the letters were not based upon any offence which had taken place, only giving a warning to ensure that an offence would not take place in the future. I'm not "taming down," the letters, but explaining their content. To use the analogy of driving again, if such a letter was written to a driver it would say "We have no evidence that you were speeding. But don't speed."
Laugh now, but one day we'll be in charge...

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Pete the kayaker
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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by Pete the kayaker »

Fishguard, I'm happy that you a proud of our rivers and I commend your vigilence on issues such as litter, damage and pollution. However, I also trust you approach Kayakers with courtesy and respect - too frequently I've been approched with rudeness and agression by some fishermen.
fishguard wrote:I will not turn a blind eye to paddlers coming down in low waters, or coming down over spawning beds in high or low waters, neither will I turn a blind eye to Anglers commiting similar offences.
Is paddling over a spawning bed in high water an offence? Is the spawning bed affected in any way?
fishguard wrote:Also I would not expect paddlers to have pay to enjoy their sport, but would expect organisations that are going to, or do run businesses on our rivers, to make an annual contribution for their upkeep.
An enlightened attitude that I support.
fishguard wrote:I do not think it unreasonable to ask, you guys to stick to some agreed rules, and be recognised on our rivers. The only ones I can see having a problem with this, are the ones intent on breaking them.
I concur, but the emphasis must be on agreed rather than imposed and as such I believe legislation by the WAG may be a good thing. We'll see.
fishguard wrote:So pete next time you are enjoying drifting down our rivers (and rightly so) please spare a thought for the ones who are looking after them!
For sure, and if I see litter, I'll take it, pollution, I'll report it, but apart from that you will not realise that I've been there.
*Fringe Extremist*

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Kayak-Bloke
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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by Kayak-Bloke »

Fishguard,
Firstly welcome to the forum. Debate is what forums are all about.
I do not think it unreasonable to ask, you guys to stick to some agreed rules, and be recognised on our rivers. The only ones I can see having a problem with this, are the ones intent on breaking them.
The problem with the above comment is that, today, these rules are incredibly biased. They do prevent us from enjoying our sport when conditions for it are perfect.
Some paddlers love their rivers shooting passed at 30 miles an hour and spilling over into adjacent fields. Others (my self included) aren't quite so brave. But we all like to paddle when there's water in the river. Shuffling down a low river doesn't sound like fun.

Currently, no matter how good the rivers are the "rules" say we can not paddle in more than 96% of the English and Welsh river systems between April and October. That's why some of us break the rules.
If there was a fair agreement we would recognise it.

I was stopped, from getting on a river, only few days ago. The chap who stopped us thought it was perfectly reasonable to say "you can rightfully paddle here once the fishing season is over."
I do not agree hence we paddled anyway. At no point did we scrape down any rock and if we disturbed any fish it was no more than a log floating down stream would have done.

Rivers are part of our heritage as much as the mountains, hills and green fields, which this nation is famous for across the globe.
We should all have the right to enjoy them.


Nige'.
Last edited by Kayak-Bloke on Sat Jul 18, 2009 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RichA
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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by RichA »

Hi again Fishguard, in case you missed it I'll post it again here. I really am interested in any response at all you or anyone else can give me.
RichA wrote:Fishguard, I have one question for you, that I hope you might take the time to answer. If it is such a clear cut case that kayakers (and eveyone else like canoeists, rafters etc) cause damage and are acting illegally by paddling over spawning grounds, then why has nothing happened? I'm talking about court action/arrest/sueing etc against individuals. Thanks for any comments you have.
...coming down over spawning beds in high or low waters...
I'm not sure what you're getting at here - could you clarify when you mention high water please? Thanks.

fishguard
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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by fishguard »

Hi Rich,

The reasons there has been no court action (yet), was the lack of evidence, the warning letters issued last year were given by the E.A, as a compromise for them preventing the environmental crime officer based at Bangor, from arresting the paddlers in question. But that is not to say that if they or anyothers, doing the same again this Spawning season will be so lucky.

It doesnt matter whether the waters are high or low, if you are entering or egressing over spawning beds, or just pulling up on top of them and digging paddles in to gravels to stableise.

The whole point Rich, is we aren`t saying you cant go paddling throughout the whole of the spawning season, just that we can work together, makes some rules "TOGETHER" and educate you guys where the sensitive areas are, so that you can keep off them.

Its not such a big ask is it?

That makes everyone a winner (especially the spawning Fish)

Regards Fishguard

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RichA
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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by RichA »

Moving on to your second point about spawning grounds, how can a canoe cause damage that a seasonal spate cannot? Go on, now is your chance to educate us! ;-)
It doesnt matter whether the waters are high or low, if you are entering or egressing over spawning beds, or just pulling up on top of them and digging paddles in to gravels to stableise.
You seem to imply that there's no problem, whether the water is high or low, as long as we don't touch the gravel. Have I interpreted that right?

Seriously though, education is the key as you say. I fully appreciate and support that. What I'm struggling with is how an 'investigation' by the EA (W266) can imply that canoes don't damage spawning redds, and yet they seem to be such a big problem from your point of view. Like you say, education. How would you propose to implement it? And what rules/regulations would you suggest we have? Go on, start the ball rolling.

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Pete the kayaker
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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by Pete the kayaker »

fishguard wrote:The reasons there has been no court action (yet), was the lack of evidence, the warning letters issued last year were given by the E.A, as a compromise for them preventing the environmental crime officer based at Bangor, from arresting the paddlers in question. But that is not to say that if they or anyothers, doing the same again this Spawning season will be so lucky.
A lack of evidence would suggest that no offence has been committed. Are you saying they were guilty despite the lack of evidence? BTW Does an EA Bailiff really have the power of arrest?
fishguard wrote:It doesnt matter whether the waters are high or low, if you are entering or egressing over spawning beds, or just pulling up on top of them and digging paddles in to gravels to stableise.
A kayak passing over a spawning bed in high water is unlikely to make much contact with it, so your assertion is false - the presumption it is based on (i.e. that kayaks are damaging spawning beds) has never been demonstated as true. Whilst some absolute beginners may try "digging paddles in to gravels to stableise", this is not a technique favoured in moving water by (m)any paddlers ;D
fishguard wrote:The whole point Rich, is we aren`t saying you cant go paddling throughout the whole of the spawning season, just that we can work together, makes some rules "TOGETHER" and educate you guys where the sensitive areas are, so that you can keep off them.

Its not such a big ask is it?
Indeed not, but part of the problem is that it would be all too easy for the angling interests to identify spawning beds on every river and use this to effectively ban paddling. There is a lack of trust between our sports/pastimes and this is down to the misinformation we've been fed by angling interests in the past. IMHO Independent oversight of this is probably required now to make it feasible.
*Fringe Extremist*

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peakfreak
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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by peakfreak »

fishguard wrote:..."TOGETHER"...
And here lies the crux of the whole problem.
We as paddlers and I am sure the majority of fisherfolk would be happy to get "TOGETHER" and come up with the agreed codes... but... neither the BCU nor the equivelant Fishing NGB seem to be capable of representing the respective memberships at such a grass roots level.

The agreed codes are not rocket science for gawds sake, they can be summarised quite easily; use the rivers in a considerate manner to all, (users and the environment).
B'jaysus I may even set up the marquee and supply the music if it gets us around the table together to come to a mutally agreeable code. :-)

fishguard
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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by fishguard »

Hi again Rich,

If you dont touch the gravels, you obviously wont damage the Redds, but you will scare the spawning fish away down river, and they are already stressed enough after their arduous trek up to the Spawning grounds. The seasonal spate is the act of nature, paddlers are not.

The E.A have got a duty to protect the river, they can soften the SAFFA 1975 legislation up as much as they want, but when there is any risk to spawning grounds, however little they have researched into it, they still have to act on it.

If Paddlers are advised of the 1975 act before they go onto the river above spawning grounds, and travel over them the " wilful intent " can be proven as long as you have all the evidence.

I am only answering this so you know, what can happen to you guys, I do not want to see anyone prosocuted,but at the same time will not turn a blind eye as I stated earlier. Wouldnt it be easier to just avoid these spawning grounds/sancturies in the first place, there are still large sections of river you can go on.

Remember I am not here to argue.

Regards Fishguard

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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by Strad »

fishguard wrote:Hi again Rich,

If you dont touch the gravels, you obviously wont damage the Redds, but you will scare the spawning fish away down river, and they are already stressed enough after their arduous trek up to the Spawning grounds. The seasonal spate is the act of nature, paddlers are not.

The E.A have got a duty to protect the river, they can soften the SAFFA 1975 legislation up as much as they want, but when there is any risk to spawning grounds, however little they have researched into it, they still have to act on it.

If Paddlers are advised of the 1975 act before they go onto the river above spawning grounds, and travel over them the " wilful intent " can be proven as long as you have all the evidence.

I am only answering this so you know, what can happen to you guys, I do not want to see anyone prosocuted,but at the same time will not turn a blind eye as I stated earlier. Wouldnt it be easier to just avoid these spawning grounds/sancturies in the first place, there are still large sections of river you can go on.

Remember I am not here to argue.

Regards Fishguard
If we assume then that high water paddling any time of year is ok, aside from where there are spawning grounds, by how large a margin would we need to avoid a bed? 100 yds? and if we take out 100 yds above and get on 100yds below, aren't we then going to have someone moan at us for trespass? In effect unless you can okay the riverside access this amounts to blocking large sections of river off. I under stand your desire to protect the grounds, but without the proof that high water paddling would impact them why block off large sections...
Old School?? I miss my AQII..
Graham Stradling

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Pete the kayaker
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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by Pete the kayaker »

fishguard wrote:If Paddlers are advised of the 1975 act before they go onto the river above spawning grounds, and travel over them the " wilful intent " can be proven as long as you have all the evidence.
This isn't true, the act of going for a paddle over a section where there may be spawning grounds does not imply any intent to damage them. This just appears to be scaremongering.

Remember it's just not an issue. Paddlers are not out there damaging spawning grounds - it's just an hypothesis from an angler with no direct evidence to show it has happened (Letters from the EA are not evidence of damage to the beds).
*Fringe Extremist*

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RichA
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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by RichA »

fishguard wrote:Hi again Rich,

If you dont touch the gravels, you obviously wont damage the Redds, but you will scare the spawning fish away down river, and they are already stressed enough after their arduous trek up to the Spawning grounds. The seasonal spate is the act of nature, paddlers are not.


Regards Fishguard

I completely disagree about scaring fish. Are fish in England and Wales more easily scared than in, say France or Italy where I was a few weeks ago? I had a great paddle in North Wales a while back, and it was topped off by paddling over a small (8 foot?) mini waterfall only to see a fish jump back up it. Either I scared it so much it just had to leave the pool at the bottom and jump up it, or it had no complaints about me being there. I sat in an eddy and watched, only to see another one (different size) do the same. I can only assume these were 'game' fish heading up river for 'you-know-what'! Another time I was paddling a flat section of the Thames up a back water, and as I looked down, I saw a load of fish that looked to me like bream, but it's been a few years since I last went coarse fishing seriously. I carried on paddling around the area and constantly saw fish beneath me in the shallow warm water, completely undisturbed by my prescense. It was really amazing to see that on a lovely hot summers day!

I know it's all anecdotal and only based on experience (!), but until someone proves to me that we scare fish enough to ruin a day of fishing, or more importantly to reduce the liklihood of them breeding, then I will just dismiss that reason.

So if we're not damaging redds, not scaring fish away, then what is the problem? Oh yeh, you pay, we don't. I'm not saying that's your argument by any means, but the vast majority of arguments I've heard resort to that as a last tactic, rightly or wrongly.

As for a seasonal spate, if the redds and fish can withstand that, natural or not, then a canoe or even lots of canoes simply won't damage them. By comparison the impact is miniscule, in my opinion obviously.

I said earlier:
Like you say, education. How would you propose to implement it? And what rules/regulations would you suggest we have? Go on, start the ball rolling.
Anyway, thanks for your input, but I'm bowing out. I'm off paddling! ;-)

sleepswiththefishees
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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by sleepswiththefishees »

fishguard wrote:Hi again Rich,

There are still large sections of river you can go on.

Regards Fishguard

Ok Where?

In the interests of following the law as you see it please name these river sections?

When you do perhaps we could add up the total length of them and compare them to the total length of all paddleable Rivers in wales and we can see if people rerard that as "large sections"
Then perhaps we could add up the river sections in wales where people fish and then compare the two. Then perhaps you could see why paddlers think the current situation is unfair.

You say that you don't want to stop us enjoying are sport but you fail to see that the current rules (which are evidently vague and unsupported by hard physical fact and by your own admission were created for another purpose) which you suppoprt, do just that. By threatening us with your interpretation of these very vague laws you are again ultimately saying "You cannot paddle here!"

1, could you please show us the empirical evidence/statistics (Not your opinion) or a link to some such, that proves beyond doubt that kayaking in rivers reduces fish stocks.

2, If there is insufficient evidence on this issue would you support the idea of unbiased (very important word for both sides) research into this matter.

3, If (and i admit it is a big If) that research showed that kayaking does not affect fish stocks would you then be willing to allow unrestricted access to rivers?

Bod
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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by Bod »

fishguard wrote:
If you dont touch the gravels, you obviously wont damage the Redds,

If Paddlers are advised of the 1975 act before they go onto the river above spawning grounds, and travel over them the " wilful intent " can be proven as long as you have all the evidence.
I don't like deconstructing people's posts because sometimes it becomes wordplay rather than a sensible discussion about the general situation, however in this case I can't resist. Read sentence one. Then tell me how you can possibly also believe what you have written in sentence 2.
John B.

sleepswiththefishees
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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by sleepswiththefishees »

fishguard wrote:Hi again Rich,

If you dont touch the gravels, you obviously wont damage the Redds, but you will scare the spawning fish away down river, and they are already stressed enough after their arduous trek up to the Spawning grounds. The seasonal spate is the act of nature, paddlers are not.

Regards Fishguard
This statement in itself shows why paddlers are so fed up with the angling opinion.

1, First you say that paddling over spawning grounds damages them. When an argument is put forward saying that is nonsense (how on earth can floating over, creating a tiny water disturbance with a paddle affect them when they are adapted to survive the forces created by seasonal spate) what do you do? You move the goal posts and change your point: "You obviously won't damage the Redds but you will scare the fish".

2, "The seasonal spate is an act of nature, paddlers are not" Well neither are anglers!!! So by that logic no-one should be allowed on the rivers!!

3, Scare the Fish. What!!!!! as apposed to ripping them out of their natural habitat with a hook and a line, give me a break!

Also can i make a few total generalisations about all paddlers.

No matter what their opinion on the access issue:

No paddler ever goes paddling with the specific desire to damage spawning beds or scare fish.

No paddler ever goes paddling with the specific desire to damage the river and environment.

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peakfreak
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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by peakfreak »

sleepswiththefishees wrote:...Also can I make a few total generalisations about all paddlers.

No matter what their opinion on the access issue:

No paddler ever goes paddling with the specific desire to damage spawning beds or scare fish.

No paddler ever goes paddling with the specific desire to damage the river and environment.
There is no generalisation there, only fact.

fishguard
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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by fishguard »

Hi all,

You asked, the question, I gave you my answers, Anglers do no go and fish over spawning grounds as this occurs in the closed season, and if they do so are prosecuted accordingly.

You are complainig about access issues, and the small amounts of waters you can go on, if you stay off the spawning grounds, I am only talking about the sections of waters we lease ( and not saying because we Pay there our rivers) but if you take out the spawning beds/sancturies, isnt it still more waters than you had anyway?

If you think a group of paddlers wont scare fish, then you need to speak to a certain E.A Officer working from Bangor, who was watching Salmon at the tail end of a resting pool, he witnesed one kayaker entering the head of the pool, the fish got aggitated, three more kayakers entered the pool behind the first one and the fish fled downstream, this is the story from one of the "PROPER BAILIFFS" as you like to call them.

If you want to disect my answers, and nit pick to provoke arguments, find someone else to do it with, as anyone can create arguments, out of any one of these postings, as with every forum!

Regards Fishguard.

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Strad
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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by Strad »

Hi Fishguard,

I would genuinely like an answer, if you wanted us to avoid a spawning area by how much would it be - 20ft, 20 yds, 200yds? what is sufficient (in your opinion) to not spook fish?

As I posted earlier I'm not convinced we do, but if the deal was that we could paddle all the rest of the river no questions asked as long we avoided a 200 yd stretch (assuming a decent water level too), I would be happy to compromise....

That said I still genuinely can't see why that sort of information shouldn't make the environmental awareness part of a legislative change....
Old School?? I miss my AQII..
Graham Stradling

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