Fishermen and environment

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John Saunders
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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by John Saunders »

Mark R wrote:I laughed out loud at the words in that article, 'cormorant predation'.
...
Cormorants - eat fish that anglers wish to catch = bad, therefore must be destroyed
...
...have a laugh at this paranoid diatribe against twitchers: http://www.cormorantbusters.co.uk/facts.htm

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Wildswimmer Pete
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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by Wildswimmer Pete »

John Saunders wrote: ...have a laugh at this paranoid diatribe against twitchers: http://www.cormorantbusters.co.uk/facts.htm
I like that bit about bird watchers being "narrow minded bigots" - the words "kettle", "black" and "pot" spring to mind.

" Why should anglers, through fish replacement costs subsidize your hobby? Bearing in mind that most of you dislike us intensely. " Possibly for the same reason we are made to subsidise anglers through our taxes despite some of us disliking them intensely.

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Pete the kayaker
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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by Pete the kayaker »

John Saunders wrote:...have a laugh at this paranoid diatribe against twitchers: http://www.cormorantbusters.co.uk/facts.htm
Hysterical... I think he's desperately in need of a shag!
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Kayak-Bloke
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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by Kayak-Bloke »

Blimey that article made me laugh. Why not go the whole hog and just call the atricle "Fishermen against nature"?

We have the slogan "My river, your river, our rivers".

The maggot drowners could have stickers that show an infant child bawling out; "It's My river! Mine! Mine! Mine!"

PS If you adopt this slogan can I have some royalties please (to fund my summer boating).


:-)

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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by quicky »

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/commen ... 715222.ece



By the way 60% of the EA income comes from the public purse…

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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by garya »

How many people in this picture trampling down a chalk stream bed, Mr Slater ?

http://www.ourrivers.org.uk/about/

Rods, dogs and a loud hailer not much disturbance going on there then. I hope that's not hunting with a dog, that's banned as you know ...

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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by garya »

A useful artical that explains about redds that might help paddlers recognise and avoid them.

http://onlinefishinglog.com/blog/23/Spa ... -and-Redds

The advice about not casting in these areas and how sluggishly fish fight during spawning must mean that it is comon practice for some to fish these areas during spawning time.

So much for a closed season ..

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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by Rhod »

Its interesting that the article says:

Fish hug to a site and refuse to move even if disturbed.
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fishguard
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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by fishguard »

Hi All,

Interesting comments.bit one sided though, you seem to be completley anti Anglers and Clubs, has it ever crossed your minds that some of us do actually protect the rivers, and put in a lot of voluntary time and effort in doing so, if we are all so intent on damaging the rivers/ environment as stated in you posts, then why are you fighting so hard to get unristricted access to Canoe/Kayak down our beautiful natural rivers, that are there for all to enjoy?

I have been River Keeping for a number of years now, and find it really disrespectful, to read your comments about wannabe Bailiffs, as you correctly said they are no longer called bailiffs, they are called enforcement officers, and you also correctly said you can ignore club River Keepers, but what you cant do is ignore the Law, and that is what every Canoeist/ Kayaker/rafter and Gorge Walker is doing when they go over spawning grounds, in high or low waters during spawning season, this comes under SAFFA 1975, and is E.A legislation.

So you can go on and on saying you do this we dont do that etc, but at the end of the day we all need to get our heads together and work this out once and for all, because if left up to WAG to decide the outcome, no one will get what they want, no matter what you think, we will all lose out on .

Fishguard

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MikeR
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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by MikeR »

Robert Surrey wrote:Kayakers in their true colours

Come on Robert - I'm sure you can do far better than that. Hunting around on Youtube for 'evidence' is a pretty weak tactic. For example, look what I've found:



Hardly bathes anglers in glory does it..... (for what it is worth the video disgusts me and I would honestly prefer people not to click on it as the cretins involved will only get a kick out of their hit count going up).

I applaud the fact that you have made the effort to come across here to engage with paddlers - but if you want to be taken seriously and get some useful and constructive information you are going to have to do an awful lot better than that.

I look forward to better posts.

Mike.

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Rhod
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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by Rhod »

In what way will we all lose out from legislation that encourages the sharing of the best places in the world? Surely it we ALL stand to gain.

Would you mind quoting SAFFA 1975/linking too it, I have not read it.

No one (well at least not many) thinks that fishermen are evil. The point we keep making is that most have no problem with sharing the rivers, they are perfectly responsible river users like us and love to see other use these wonderful places.

There does seem to be an increasing amount of fishermen jumping on the spawning ground bandwagon, despite a lack of ANY evidence from anywhere in the world that we do any harm. Some fishermen do damage our rivers, no doubt the ones that consider it ok for THEM on THEIR river. Would they (or we) damage OUR rivers so readily?
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Robert Surrey
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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by Robert Surrey »

Mike R.
I'm a boater and have never been fishing in my life but Ill defend to my dying breath the right of people to go fishing if they chose to do so.
The venom on here aimed at Anglers appals me.
I posted those links to try and make people see that some (not all) boaters are equally as misguided as some people seem to think anglers are.
Scraping down very low rivers isn't a great advert for the sport is it? And it only serves to give ammunition to those anglers who want to prohibit boaters from our rivers. So why do it especially during the fishing season.
And Adrian coopers assertion that it's the Etive and has no migratory fish so doesn't count claim is utter utter b#ll#cks as are most of his blinkered narrow minded negative posts. Selfish misguided paddlers can be found scraping down low rivers all over the country any given weekend of the year.
Do our sport a favour and stay at home until it rains or until the fishing season closes.
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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by jmmoxon »

but what you cant do is ignore the Law, and that is what every Canoeist/ Kayaker/rafter and Gorge Walker is doing when they go over spawning grounds, in high or low waters during spawning season, this comes under SAFFA 1975, and is E.A legislation.
How would going OVER spawning grounds be classed as disturbance?
but at the end of the day we all need to get our heads together and work this out once and for all
Unfortunately fishing clubs have continually refused/undermined our attempts at discussion.

Mike
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Robert Surrey
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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by Robert Surrey »

fishguard wrote:Hi All,

Interesting comments.bit one sided though, you seem to be completley anti Anglers and Clubs, has it ever crossed your minds that some of us do actually protect the rivers, and put in a lot of voluntary time and effort in doing so, if we are all so intent on damaging the rivers/ environment as stated in you posts, then why are you fighting so hard to get unristricted access to Canoe/Kayak down our beautiful natural rivers, that are there for all to enjoy?

I have been River Keeping for a number of years now, and find it really disrespectful, to read your comments about wannabe Bailiffs, as you correctly said they are no longer called bailiffs, they are called enforcement officers, and you also correctly said you can ignore club River Keepers, but what you cant do is ignore the Law, and that is what every Canoeist/ Kayaker/rafter and Gorge Walker is doing when they go over spawning grounds, in high or low waters during spawning season, this comes under SAFFA 1975, and is E.A legislation.

So you can go on and on saying you do this we dont do that etc, but at the end of the day we all need to get our heads together and work this out once and for all, because if left up to WAG to decide the outcome, no one will get what they want, no matter what you think, we will all lose out on .

Fishguard

I'm afarid your wasting your breat Fishgaurd. You and I are in a minority on here and I'm a boater so what hope do you have.
Your only letting yourself in for a barrage of narrow minded blinkered ill informed abuse.
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shanclan
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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by shanclan »

fishguard wrote:
..... but what you cant do is ignore the Law, and that is what every Canoeist/ Kayaker/rafter and Gorge Walker is doing when they go over spawning grounds, in high or low waters during spawning season, this comes under SAFFA 1975, and is E.A legislation.
I guess you are referring to SAFFA 1975 s2.4:

"Subject to subsection (5) below, any person who, except in the exercise of a legal right to take materials from any waters, wilfully disturbs any spawn or spawning fish, or any bed, bank or shallow on which any spawn or spawning fish may be, shall be guilty of an offence."

Taking a kayak or canoe in clear water over a spawning ground would not be wilful disturbance in anyone's book. This is an interesting Act which is almost wholly concerned with outlawing some of the more barbaric practices which were associated with fishing at that time. I don't think you will find any such legislation in respect of canoeing/ kayaking because we have never needed any.
fishguard wrote:
So you can go on and on saying you do this we dont do that etc, but at the end of the day we all need to get our heads together and work this out once and for all, because if left up to WAG to decide the outcome, no one will get what they want, no matter what you think, we will all lose out on .

Fishguard
Curious. If WAG decide the outcome, then we will probably end up with the Scottish model - which is what we want.

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Robert Surrey
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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by Robert Surrey »

How would going OVER spawning grounds be classed as disturbance?

Try waving your hand OVER the bottom of a muddy or leaf debris strewn river or lake bed to see how it's DISTURBED for your answer.
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MikeR
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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by MikeR »

Robert Surrey wrote:Mike R.
I'm a boater and have never been fishing in my life but Ill defend to my dying breath the right of people to go fishing if they chose to do so.
The venom on here aimed at Anglers appals me.
I posted those links to try and make people see that some (not all) boaters are equally as misguided as some people seem to think anglers are.
Scraping down very low rivers isn't a great advert for the sport is it? And it only serves to give ammunition to those anglers who want to prohibit boaters from our rivers. So why do it especially during the fishing season.
And Adrian coopers assertion that it's the Etive and has no migratory fish so doesn't count claim is utter utter b#ll#cks as are most of his blinkered narrow minded negative posts. Selfish misguided paddlers can be found scraping down low rivers all over the country any given weekend of the year.
Do our sport a favour and stay at home until it rains or until the fishing season closes.
Apologies due Robert - I misunderstood where you were coming from.

I've got to agree that scraping down boney low rivers is not the finest advert for our sport. However, it is not the 'poor form' or potential for environmental impact that baffles me. It is why people think that scraping down rivers is any fun when they are dog low! IMO it is much preferable to walk away, come back on a wet day and sample the river in its true character with a bit of water in it.

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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by jmmoxon »

I'm afarid your wasting your breat Fishgaurd. You and I are in a minority on here and I'm a boater so what hope do you have.
Your only letting yourself in for a barrage of narrow minded blinkered ill informed abuse.
Unfortunately any internet forum you can think of, if you go online & post a contrary view you will receive far more virulent abuse than you will generally get on here. Fishguard, thank you for your comments, it's good to hear you are supportive of discussion, however, discussion with fishing interests has currently got paddlers less recognised access than we had before, which is why we are pressing for government support in this.

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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by fishguard »

The SAFFA 1975, applies to all, and you do not have to prove wilfull, as long as you make the offenders aware of it before they enter the waters, and that includes Anglers,poachers , Canoeists, Kayakers,rafters and Gorge Walkers, there were four warning letters isuued via E.A Enforcement Officers last spawning season to 4 Kayakers from Bangor Uni!

Anyway as you are not interested in discussions with a River Keeper,and because you are so sure WAG are going to give you the same entitlments as are in Scotland, it looks like I am wasting my time trying to WORK WITH SOME OF YOU. But will be available for discussions on this forum should anyone want to try and sort out our diffrences civilly

Regards all
fishguard

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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by jmmoxon »

Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries Act 1975: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/RevisedSt ... 50051_en_1

Mike
Last edited by jmmoxon on Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by MikeR »

Robert Surrey wrote:How would going OVER spawning grounds be classed as disturbance?

Try waving your hand OVER the bottom of a muddy or leaf debris strewn river or lake bed to see how it's DISTURBED for your answer.
Salmonid species spawn in gravel rivers on clear gravel patches. Wafting your hand around will disturb silt from a river bed.... but only when it is there to be disturbed in the first place! Eggs laid in a fast flowing Salmonid river will be more than capable of coping with the occasional gentle waft from a passing boat (or a floating log, or a flood event, or a swimming fish....).

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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by Wildswimmer Pete »

shanclan wrote: I guess you are referring to SAFFA 1975 s2.4:

"Subject to subsection (5) below, any person who, except in the exercise of a legal right to take materials from any waters, wilfully disturbs any spawn or spawning fish, or any bed, bank or shallow on which any spawn or spawning fish may be, shall be guilty of an offence."

Taking a kayak or canoe in clear water over a spawning ground would not be wilful disturbance in anyone's book. This is an interesting Act which is almost wholly concerned with outlawing some of the more barbaric practices which were associated with fishing at that time. I don't think you will find any such legislation in respect of canoeing/ kayaking because we have never needed any.
The original intention of SAFFA 1975 was to prevent gravel extraction from sensitive areas but like most contemporary legislation, so badly drafted as to allow it to be used by vested interests in instances for which it was never intended. Attempting to liken paddling/gorge walking/ wild swimming to commercial gravel extraction is ludicrous, but that is precisely the effect of this legal "mission creep".

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Robert Surrey
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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by Robert Surrey »

Why are people so desperate that boaters be seen as the ethical keepers of the rivers that they can't even take what is written in context without immediately going on the defensive.
jmoxxon asked how passing over a spawning bed could be classed as disturbance. I merely answered that.
I'm well aware that fish species face much worse trails and tribulations then a boater passing over a spawning bed and up to now have faired pretty well despite mans best efforts.
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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by jmmoxon »

...have a laugh at this paranoid diatribe against twitchers: http://www.cormorantbusters.co.uk/facts.htm
Correction - Twitchers are considered a lunatic fringe by the majority of birdwatchers - they are prepared to drive hundred of miles around the UK to see a bird that may be rare here, but are usually very, very common somewhere else in the world, at huge expense - they certainly wouldn't be interested in Cormorants.

Having said this, Cormorants do cause a huge amount of damage to fisheries, but only because we have damaged their natural environment & over-stocked some of it with easy to catch fish.

However, I did particularly like this line from the website:
Cormorants do not respect fishing club or landowner boundaries.
Mike

P.S. Madswimmer Pete isn't a boater & please show enough respect to spell people's names correctly (Interesting programme on Death of Respect on BBC2 now).
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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by MikeR »

Robert Surrey wrote:Why are people so desperate that boaters be seen as the ethical keepers of the rivers that they can't even take what is written in context without immediately going on the defensive.
jmoxxon asked how passing over a spawning bed could be classed as disturbance. I merely answered that.
I'm well aware that fish species face much worse trails and tribulations then a boater passing over a spawning bed and up to now have faired pretty well despite mans best efforts.
Yet you are allowed to go on the defensive when people point out flaws in the argument you have presented for us to digest????

It's getting late and I'm getting crabby. Night night everyone!

Mike.

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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by dogger_dave »

fishguard wrote:The SAFFA 1975, applies to all, and you do not have to prove wilfull, as long as you make the offenders aware of it before they enter the waters, and that includes Anglers,poachers , Canoeists, Kayakers,rafters and Gorge Walkers, there were four warning letters isuued via E.A Enforcement Officers last spawning season to 4 Kayakers from Bangor Uni!

These letters actually drew attention to the law (of which all those involved were already aware) and stated that there was no evidence that any offence took place. The warning was akin to a letter warning (for example, hypothetically) drivers that using a mobile phone while driving is an offence. Driving in itself is not, as a Kayaking, in itself is not, in this situation.
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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by quicky »

From the EA about false water bailiffs

Thank you for your email regarding Water Bailiffs and their enforcement powers.

I have spoken to the enforcement team in the local area office and they have confirmed that all offices need a warrant before they can question people. This warrant needs to be produced at the first encounter and acts as identification for the officer so you can clearly see they work for us.
The enforcement team have informed me that under the different acts the water bailiffs have powers equivalent to police officers. Our powers to charge come from several legislative sources in conjunction with section 43 of the Environment Act 1995.

The water bailiffs have the power to search any vessel if they believe it to be used as part of an offence, they do also have the power to cease the vessel.

You may find more information on the following link:

http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/ho ... 31537.aspx

http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/bu ... 38827.aspx

I trust you will find this information of use however please feel free to contact us if you require any further advice


Kind Regards
Sarah Early
Customer Service Advisor
Environment Agency
National Customer Contact Centre
08708 506 506

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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by Strad »

@ Robert Surrey.

Point 1 - Wild Swimmer Pete doesn't kayak or canoe he's an outdoor swimmer and wild swimmers suffer from the same stories on access that anglers tell canoeists too. We have tried to talk on access for years and it gets us no where, because all said and done much on the angling side relates to £££s, and greed blinkers peoples views.

Point 2 - Whichever way you want to slant your story, many of us paddle around the world and don't get the hassle from anglers that we receive in england / wales, yet the rivers are not unique as some try to say.

Point 3 - I fish, although I do it for food, but I know the thrill of catching a big fish. In fact the biggest I've caught was a Salmon caught from a kayak on Lake Michigan and it tasted magnificent cooked about 20 minutes after being caught. The rise in the knowledge that kayak fishing works is really another nail in the coffin for the kayak disturb the fish hogwash.

Point 4 - as people often do on forums you are throwing dirt at everyone who comes here when we are a group of individuals, I doubt you would behave the same to our faces. I hold my own views on both access and fishing, I haven't expressed them before in this thread so why do you assume to know what I think?

Point 5 - if you want to chill a little and just stick to reasoned argument rather then personal abuse like you are throwing at Adrian you are far more likely to get a good response.
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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by Pete the kayaker »

Hi Fishguard,
fishguard wrote:Interesting comments.bit one sided though, you seem to be completley anti Anglers and Clubs, has it ever crossed your minds that some of us do actually protect the rivers, and put in a lot of voluntary time and effort in doing so,
Canoeists and kayakers also put in time to clean rivers, and personal experience has shown me that a lot of the rubbish is left by fishermen - Is it any wonder that this is remarked upon? I'm glad you (personally) are doing your bit to help protect our rivers and applaud you for it. Unsuprisingly, boaters hold a range of different opinions regards angling, so I would suggest your generalization is inaccurate. Personally I'm not pro or anti angling, I wouldn't do it myself unless I was taking fish for food, but your ethics are your business. What does scroll my nerd however, is anglers pretending to have the moral high ground and authority to decide who is allowed on our rivers and when. I've never been fond of hypocrisy.
fishguard wrote:if we are all so intent on damaging the rivers/ environment as stated in you posts, then why are you fighting so hard to get unristricted access to Canoe/Kayak down our beautiful natural rivers, that are there for all to enjoy?
Bit of a non-sequator, however we wish to enjoy the rivers despite the damage done by some anglers.
fishguard wrote:I have been River Keeping for a number of years now, and find it really disrespectful, to read your comments about wannabe Bailiffs,
Ah, bless. Can I respectfully suggest that you don't let it get to you?
fishguard wrote:as you correctly said they are no longer called bailiffs, they are called enforcement officers, and you also correctly said you can ignore club River Keepers, but what you cant do is ignore the Law, and that is what every Canoeist/ Kayaker/rafter and Gorge Walker is doing when they go over spawning grounds, in high or low waters during spawning season, this comes under SAFFA 1975, and is E.A legislation.
Kayakers are not ignoring the law. The law states that spawning grounds should not be disturbed - but have any kayakers ever been prosecuted or even charged with this? No, because it is just your inaccurate assertion that kayakers are disturbing spawning beds. Isn't the truth that anglers such as yourself would rather not allow kayakers on any upland rivers at all as you wish to have exclusive access for fishermen only?
fishguard wrote:So you can go on and on saying you do this we dont do that etc, but at the end of the day we all need to get our heads together and work this out once and for all, because if left up to WAG to decide the outcome, no one will get what they want, no matter what you think, we will all lose out on.
The angling organisations have had plenty of opportunities to negotiate, but as they spurned this when they felt they had the upper hand, I suspect we'll be better off with WAG legislation.
*Fringe Extremist*

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Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by MikeB »

Excellent post - just a small point of note - in what was only his second post on this forum, "fishguard" had already thrown in the towel and noted his refusal to discuss:

"Anyway as you are not interested in discussions with a River Keeper,and because you are so sure WAG are going to give you the same entitlments as are in Scotland, it looks like I am wasting my time trying to WORK WITH SOME OF YOU. But will be available for discussions on this forum should anyone want to try and sort out our diffrences civilly"

Good of him to "make himself available" - a good negotiating stance if there ever was one.

Here in Scotland it works very well indeed. It's interesting to see how things develop down South.

Mike.

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