Fishermen and environment

Inland paddling
Glyn B
Posts: 410
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:29 pm

Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by Glyn B »

So forgive me for saying I think you might have got it a bit wrong, but hey im not here to argue.
Good grief! I do hope you are! This is the first reasoned, equable debate we've (in my limited experience at any rate?) had!!!

sleepswiththefishees
Posts: 40
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 1:01 am
Location: south devon

Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by sleepswiththefishees »

I was a bit bored, so I thought I might write a little story (bit of a long one this)

If Rivers were parks and Fishermen played cricket:

There is a (made up) public park in a small town, it is large and popular with much open space. A large part of the park is set up for cricket which the local cricket club uses on a regular basis. The park and the surrounding hedges are maintained by the local warden who is paid from the local taxes. The cricket club also pay the warden extra for taking care of their small clubhouse which is also located at the park. Immediately next to the park are dozens of back gardens of local homes, which are separated from the park by hedges which are maintained by the warden.

A group of boys from out of town decide to visit this park one day to play a game of football. When they arrive they notice that there is a cricket match on the way but it is a large park and the cricket game is at the other end. So they start their game. However, soon one of the cricketers approaches them (the others just continued with their game, ignoring the boys).

“Hey, you can’t play football here.” He says.

“Why not?” ask the boys “We aren’t damaging anything or hurting anybody and don’t worry we aren’t gonna nick anything and we are not going to leave any rubbish”.

“I know” says the cricketer “but we have a game on and there is the possibility that your ball is going to get kicked over and interrupt our game. Also you are causing damage, you are damaging the grass with your shoes!”

The boys justifiably ignore the man and carry on playing. A little while later one of the house owners comes out of his house and approaches the boys.

“Hey, you can’t play football here” he says.

“Why not?” ask the boys “We aren’t damaging anything or hurting anybody and don’t worry we aren’t gonna nick anything and we are not going to leave any rubbish”.

“Yeah but that is my house over there” he says pointing to a near by home and there is the possibility that you will kick the ball into my garden and disturb my sleep, also you can see into my upstairs window” says the home owner.

“But you have just disturbed your own sleep to come and tell us this and besides we have no intention of kicking the ball into your garden,” replied the boys.

“Don’t be cheeky says the home owner, you are also damaging the grass with your feet! Oh and another thing: you could injure yourself playing this game and the last thing I want is to hear is some kids crying in pain disturbing my sleep.”

Again the boys carry on with their game ignoring the homeowner. Sometime later both the homeowner and the cricketer return and this time with the Park Warden:

“There they are” says the cricketer “these kids just rocked up and started playing their footy game. They didn’t ask us for permission first and when I tried to approach them and tell them that they were damaging the grass and that their ball might get kicked over and ruin our game the cheeky sods just ignored me! Do something about it! And remember we pay you to look after our club house and didn’t I give you a hand last week cutting this guys hedge!!”

“Yeah, the little scamps did the same to me when I said they might disturb me if their ball got kicked over into my house or if they got injured playing this footy game of theirs.” Says the homeowner.

“But we just want to play football, and isn’t this public property?” said the kids

“I know I know” said the park warden “but to keep everyone happy we have some local rules: it is only reasonable that you need to first ask permission of the cricketers, they tell me that they think games of football damage the grass when it is at this level, and they need that grass to play their cricket on, I am not sure if football really does damage the grass but to be on the safe side I don’t think you should play when the grass is at this level. Also you should ask the permission of not just this landowner but all the people who live next to the park because you never know, your ball could go into any of their back gardens!”

“But that is so unfair, besides the Cricketers also damage the grass when they are on it and in every other park everyone seems to get on whatever sport they play!” said the boys by now getting truly fed up.

The Warden replies “Those other parks aren’t here are they? And besides the cricketers only play a few times a month and only using the strict rules of cricket! Besides, they pay me to take care of their club house.”

The Cricketer then piped in. “Oh my, these damn kids are so unreasonable, you try to have a discussion with them and they just get upset. Anyway we are not saying you can’t play footy. You just can play when there is no cricket on, when the grass is at a height that we think is an acceptable level and when you have asked our permission and the permission of all the local homeowners?”

“What! We are gonna carry on playing anyway” scream the kids now totally baffled by the twisted logic presented to them.

“Look” says the warden “You can either agree to our rules, which we think keeps everyone happy or there will be nothing allowed on this field at all, except the official cricket games. If that happens then you have only yourselves to blame for being so selfish! It is quite simple, if you carry on enjoying yourself like this then we think your breaking the law” says the Park Warden, the cricketer and homeowner both nodding their heads enthusiastically in agreement.

User avatar
morsey
Posts: 6282
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:36 pm
Location: West Country :-)
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by morsey »

Image
Fishermen and the environment!

Clungepipe Mctwunt
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:51 pm

Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by Clungepipe Mctwunt »

morsey wrote:Image
Fishermen and the environment!
Morsey you irrelevant b@st*rd. What is that and is there any proof it has anything to do with fishermen?

User avatar
peakfreak
Posts: 1530
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2007 1:03 pm
Location: Ooop Norf
Contact:

Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by peakfreak »

Clungepipe Mctwunt wrote:Morsey you irrelevant b@st*rd. What is that and is there any proof it has anything to do with fishermen?
Troll.

User avatar
quicky
Posts: 2986
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:08 pm
Location: Wirral,

Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by quicky »

Clungepipe Mctwunt - How eloquent you are. Looking at the details I think the answer could be yes.
Last edited by quicky on Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jadedkayaker
Posts: 129
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:05 pm
Location: Devon

Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by jadedkayaker »

Those with a little more perception plus a bit of local knowledge will know that of course Morsey's contribution is entirely relevant to this thread.
I believe the picture shows work currently under way on the River Erme, specifically on what used to be one of the best drops on the river, before being interefered with some time ago by the building of fish steps. Presumably the steps are being repaired and will once again spoil the rapid. I'm wondering, not having paddled this section for some time, whether planning notifications were required and posted publicly. Did anyone see them? Surprised that we didn't raise objections.
The relevance for me is also in the arrogance of the angling fraternity installing concrete and steel structures in otherwise unspoilt environments simply for their own benefit. This can be seen on countless rivers, including locally the Upper Dart, where nasty round boulders have been made into flat concrete platforms (well, you wouldn't want an angler to slip would you?), trees have been killed off by wire hawser handrails and an otherwise tricky access to a rock platform has been "improved" with a sturdy steel staircase. All of this in a National Park by a people supposedly concerned with conservation.

User avatar
Adrian Cooper
Posts: 9773
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 2:26 pm
Location: Buckinghamshire
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 18 times

Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by Adrian Cooper »

Clungepipe Mctwunt wrote:Morsey you irrelevant b@st*rd.
Now that wasn't very polite was it? Washing you mouth might help.

User avatar
morsey
Posts: 6282
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:36 pm
Location: West Country :-)
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by morsey »

Nice.

Just how relevant to "Fishermen and the Environment" is the building of fish steps to artificially increase the level of fish in a river or to even introduce them to that section in the first place?

This thread was rattling along quite nicely, it has had some view points expressed from both sides and the different views seem to have been respectfully listened to and discussed, even when the points are at total odds to each other. As Lard once said to Mark; "Carry on".

Glyn B
Posts: 410
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:29 pm

Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by Glyn B »

I'm just hoping I haven't upset Fishguard, nice to have a discussion with someone rather than just slagging each others viewpoint?

Clungepipe Mctwunt
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:51 pm

Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by Clungepipe Mctwunt »

morsey wrote:Nice.

Just how relevant to "Fishermen and the Environment" is the building of fish steps to artificially increase the level of fish in a river or to even introduce them to that section in the first place?

This thread was rattling along quite nicely, it has had some view points expressed from both sides and the different views seem to have been respectfully listened to and discussed, even when the points are at total odds to each other. As Lard once said to Mark; "Carry on".
So surely then that picture would be more relevant in a thread titled The environment agency and the environment. I very much doubt an angling club or individual anglers have taken this on of their own accord.
Also this will in no way artificially increase the level of fish in the river only stocking can do that. What it might do is enable the existing fish in the river system to get further upstream for spawning and so aid a more even distribution of fish throughout the river rather than a glut of fish below this fall and none above.
Now as Lard once said to Mark, "stop"

IanDobbs
Posts: 109
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 6:06 pm

Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by IanDobbs »

peakfreak wrote:
Clungepipe Mctwunt wrote:Morsey you irrelevant b@st*rd. What is that and is there any proof it has anything to do with fishermen?
Troll.
Fanar Fanar.
Maybe not eh!

IanDobbs
Posts: 109
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 6:06 pm

Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by IanDobbs »

morsey wrote: Fishermen and the environment!
Do you know Fishermen did this?

Looks like the flow is being redirected for maintenance?

User avatar
Adrian Cooper
Posts: 9773
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 2:26 pm
Location: Buckinghamshire
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 18 times

Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by Adrian Cooper »

IanDobbs wrote:Looks like
Another potential supposition.

User avatar
shanclan
Posts: 1026
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 12:57 pm
Location: Monmouth
Been thanked: 1 time
Contact:

Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by shanclan »

Image

Image

User avatar
wonny j
Posts: 371
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:32 pm
Location: Swansea

Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by wonny j »

sleepswiththefishees wrote:If Rivers were parks and Fishermen played cricket
That was brilliant. If, perhaps, a little harsh on the EA.
You could include it in your response to the Nation Assembly for Wales Inquiry http://www.ukriversguidebook.co.uk/foru ... =3&t=52790
(Or keep it short and sweet as suggested.)
Jonny Williams

Clungepipe Mctwunt
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:51 pm

Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by Clungepipe Mctwunt »

Adrian Cooper wrote:
Clungepipe Mctwunt wrote:Morsey you irrelevant b@st*rd.
Now that wasn't very polite was it? Washing you mouth might help.
It wasn't supposed to be polite and I typed it in silence with my fingers not my tounge.
Last edited by Clungepipe Mctwunt on Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

fishguard
Posts: 252
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:32 pm

Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by fishguard »

Hi Glyn B,

No you havent upset me, just I dont see there is much I can add to the latest posts on the forum, If the work shown in the pics has not been authorised by the E.A (or it could have even been done by them)
then whoever is responsible, should be looking at a hefty fine. As I know if our club wants to carry out any work on the rivers whether it be to stop bank erosion, pull out trees over gravels, habitat improvement, or any other work which involves the waterways, we have to pay the E.A for the permission to do the work, and then pay again (if we need machinery) to do the job, the manual work is done voluntary.

Hope this helps.

Regards Fishguard

Clungepipe Mctwunt
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:51 pm

Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by Clungepipe Mctwunt »

Adrian Cooper wrote:
IanDobbs wrote:Looks like
Another potential supposition.
Well you'd know being the master of them.

Clungepipe Mctwunt
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:51 pm

Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by Clungepipe Mctwunt »

shanclan wrote:Image

Image
Don't tell me!!!!! The operator once went fishing, Caught nothing so hired a digger to exact his revenge on the river?
Seriously the depths you people will stoop to to try and take the moral high ground over fishermen.
These pictures and those of Morseys prove nothing and are in no way related to fishermen. landowners and environment agency maybe but not fishermen.

User avatar
andya
Posts: 573
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:24 pm
Location: Mendip
Contact:

Troll alert

Post by andya »

Deleted by Andy ...

Reason: “There is no waste of time in life like that of making explanations.” - Benjamin Disraeli
Last edited by andya on Thu Sep 17, 2009 10:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

Clungepipe Mctwunt
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:51 pm

Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by Clungepipe Mctwunt »

What a fantastic argument andya.
Dismiss anyone with a differing view point to yours as a troll.
Well thats me silenced then, theres no arguing with that .

User avatar
shanclan
Posts: 1026
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 12:57 pm
Location: Monmouth
Been thanked: 1 time
Contact:

Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by shanclan »

Clungepipe Mctwunt wrote:
shanclan wrote:Image

Image
Don't tell me!!!!! The operator once went fishing, Caught nothing so hired a digger to exact his revenge on the river?
Seriously the depths you people will stoop to to try and take the moral high ground over fishermen.
These pictures and those of Morseys prove nothing and are in no way related to fishermen. landowners and environment agency maybe but not fishermen.
Wrong. I wasn't trying to take the moral high ground, rather the opposite - just trying to point out that a picture without context is meaningless and to re-introduce some balance. This one has nothing to do with fishing.

This is in river work at Symonds Yat done to improve the rapids for paddlers. The work was undertaken in highly controlled circumstances after literally years of investigations, surveys consultations etc. But it didn't look pretty when it was being done.

User avatar
morsey
Posts: 6282
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:36 pm
Location: West Country :-)
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by morsey »

Clunge you must be a little bit simple to think that installing fish steps in a river is not at all related to fishing. The EA decide on a whim to install fish steps! An angling club/fishery approach the EA and get permission to install fish steps! The Angling club get funding from the European commission to install fish steps and under the guidance of the EA the fish steps are installed. It matters not, the technicalities of who carried out the work, but the end result is still the same; the river ecology is changed for the benefit of increasing fish stocks.


My feeling is that conservation takes into account the entire river environment, it should not prioritise one species over all others and especially not just for the promotion of recreational pursuit.

Stocking, fish steps, plant destruction, avian culls... they all have effect and it is comical that any attempt is made to deny any connection to fishing.


I give you this analogy to ponder: Say there is a certain naturally occurring fish breed in a river that is almost becoming extinct. Then obviously there should be concern as the to the probable causes and the ways to counter the decline. The same you could say of Gorilla's in mountainous regions, you would want to identify and nullify the effects that are causing destruction of the species. You would most probably consider entering into a program of gorilla regeneration, similarly I guess you would look to artificially stocking a river to promote the dwindling levels. Now the question is, at which point would you start hunting the gorillas? because it seems to me that the concerns often expressed about the decline of fish stocks is a little undermined by the fact that they are still being fished.

Glyn B
Posts: 410
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:29 pm

Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by Glyn B »

Dismiss anyone with a differing view point to yours as a troll.

Seriously the depths you people will stoop to to try and take the moral high ground
To the first point, So your point of view is the only one eh?

To the second, I'll assume "you people" refers to water users other than fishermen?

As far as I'm aware, all we require is fair access to a natural resource not for it to be modified to suit our own narrow requirements.

User avatar
shanclan
Posts: 1026
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 12:57 pm
Location: Monmouth
Been thanked: 1 time
Contact:

Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by shanclan »

morsey wrote: My feeling is that conservation takes into account the entire river environment, it should not prioritise one species over all others and especially not just for the promotion of recreational pursuit.
Absolutely spot on. Managing for fish is not the same as managing the river environment for bio-diversity. I saw a paper online recently ( I can't it find now) that looked at this issue in ponds and concluded that bio-diversity was reduced when ponds are managed for fish. It would be interesting to see similar work on managed rivers.

I personally don't have a problem with taking fish in a controlled way. Fish in our rivers were naturally predated in the past by bears, beavers and otters which have now disappeared/ been significantly reduced. Man has also probably always taken fish. I have more of a problem with wading which disturbs invertebrate feeding/breeding sites and disturbs the river bed leading to excess nutrients in the water. The impact of weed clearing and bank work is also debatable.

As for hunting gorillas: don't put ideas in people's heads.

Clungepipe Mctwunt
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:51 pm

Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by Clungepipe Mctwunt »

Morsey wrote "Clunge you must be a little bit simple to think that installing fish steps in a river is not at all related to fishing.
Off on a tangent and as irrelevant as ever. No one especially me said anything about this not being related to fishing. The thread is titled Fishermen and the environment not fishing and the environment.
Fishermen didn't make a fish ladder.
Morsey also wrote"The EA decide on a whim to install fish steps!"/quote]
Doubt it was on a whim. Things like this take months of planning and red tape.
Morsey also wrote" comical that any attempt is made to deny any connection to fishing.
"
Not trying to deny it has something to do with fishing, just that fishermen didn't do it and don't have the authority to do it.
Morsey may as well have written" OOPS now it's me that looks simple isn't it. I really ought to read things and then post replys that actually relate to the thread rather than trying to twist things to suit myself."
GlynB wrote" So your point of view is the only one eh?"
Not at all but I wouldn't dismiss anyone else as a troll if they didn't agree with me.

GlynB also wrote"I'll assume "you people" refers to water users other than fishermen? "

No I was refering to the contributors to this thread who so desperately want to claim the moral highg ground as ethical users of the rivers.
GlynB also wrote"As far as I'm aware, all we require is fair access to a natural resource not for it to be modified to suit our own narrow requirements."
See Shanclans photos and then argue that we don't modify natural resources to suit our own narrow requirements.There are many such examples from all over the country of river beds being modified to make them more suitable for boating.
Shanclan wrote"Wrong. I wasn't trying to take the moral high ground, rather the opposite - just trying to point out that a picture without context is meaningless and to re-introduce some balance. This one has nothing to do with fishing.

This is in river work at Symonds Yat done to improve the rapids for paddlers. The work was undertaken in highly controlled circumstances after literally years of investigations, surveys consultations etc. But it didn't look pretty when it was being done."
Then apologies are due but this further goes to prove how pointless and irrelevant Morseys original pictures were.

jmmoxon
Posts: 5917
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2002 12:12 pm
Location: Sometimes Sunny Somerset
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 54 times
Contact:

Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by jmmoxon »

Can't find any info on the work being done on the Erme, but found this may be of interest:

Cleeve Angling Club
Membership is open to residents of the Ivybridge area. 2km+ of fishing for salmon and trout on the River Erme. Includes streaches from Cleeve Bridge at the Ermington road playing field, upstream to the top of Longtimber Woods.

Fishing suggestions in Devon: http://www.flyforums.co.uk/archive/inde ... 19057.html

On June 19th 2008 fresh on the back of showing the fi lm ‘Message In The Waves’, Ivybridge Environmental Action Group members gathered together a total of 18 people to do an evening’s river clean up of the River Erme. Being one of the best attended events of this nature in recent times possibly due to the success of showing the fi lm the previous month a great deal was able to be achieved in cleaning up the river. The most notable fi nd was possibly a bass guitar that had found its way into the Erme, that together with the usual haul of bikes, signs, cans, bottles and plastic bags created quite a pile come the end of the evening.

Mike
http://kayakworldguide.forums-free.com Links to websites with info on white water, touring, sea & surf.

fishguard
Posts: 252
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:32 pm

Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by fishguard »

Hi Guys, ( Paddlers and Anglers )

It seems we are all going back to, having snipes at one another and to prove what? as I have said we are all guilty of damaging the Environment however un intentially it might be.

I have a Little true story, my nine year old daughter, had her first taster day in an open canoe and really enjoyed it, and has put her name down for more, just as I did as a child when I used to canoe (fibre glass thats how lond ago it was) with my father who used to do well in competitions at Canolfan Tryweryn, but also allthough not an Angler himself,used to take me fishing on the rivers.
Anyway my daughter is also a keen Angler and has just come 2nd in the Annual fishing competition, that is not to say one day she might want to compete in Kayaking, and I for one would not stop her!

I think we have become so self obsessed with our own interests, that we are forgetting we are individuals and have a choice in what we want to do!

We need to discus ways to move forward not backwards.

Regards Fishguard

User avatar
quicky
Posts: 2986
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:08 pm
Location: Wirral,

Re: Fishermen and environment

Post by quicky »

I think we have become so self obsessed with our own interests, that we are forgetting we are individuals and have a choice in what we want to do!
And therein lies the problem.

Individuals have a choice in what they do....

BUT NOT when other groups actively try to stop or ban them doing it and try to keep a natural resource for themselves.

Post Reply

Return to “Whitewater and Touring”