Another coach lost to good causes

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Adrian Cooper
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Another coach lost to good causes

Post by Adrian Cooper »

A friend phoned me today to ask what he needed to do to become a coach. He is a canoeist, comfortable on grade 3 (3+), WWSR trained, good all round chap. He retired early and has time available to help with a young offenders organisation but the council required him to be a suitably qualified coach. I outlined in simple terms the requirements to acheive level 2. The need to obtain level 1, FSRT, first aid, 3* canoe (he may have this but not a problem) 3* kayak skills, level 2 training, level 2 assessment. I did my best to be positive not jaundiced but he quickly came to the decision that it was not worth the effort and he would need to think of something else.

That's the new scheme for you.

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Re: Another coach lost to good causes

Post by BaldockBabe »

I have come to the same conclusion. Even before I became a victim of the credit crunch the cost and time to do the prerequisites and the course were prohibitive. Now I have the time but the cost is still prohibitive.

My husband is considering being a bank based coach but will only do that if we can get some sort of funding to help with the cost.

I am not going to bother at all as having to play around in an open Canadian (rather than my trusty slalom C1) does not appeal to me and I can't be bothered to pester the BCU for clarification on the issue as that is yet another hoop.

I still coach informally but make it clear to people that I have no paperwork.

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andya
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Jumping throught the hoops at the moment ....

Post by andya »

BaldockBabe wrote:I have come to the same conclusion. Even before I became a victim of the credit crunch the cost and time to do the prerequisites and the course were prohibitive. Now I have the time but the cost is still prohibitive.
I can totally understand what you're saying ... however as someone who has decided to go through the hoops this year ... does it have to be "that" expensive???

My son recent decided he'd like to paddle, so I find myself returning to the sport that consumed my youth and collage years ;¬). Basically I have no relevant quals or recent APL, and despite Slalom putting me back into D2, I have to start from the very bottom of the coaching ladders.


So this year I have booked .... 2*, FSRT, 3* WWK, L1, and thinking of adding 3* OC. This should get me to the level where I can help out at the club.

I'm doing all these via my local club, without a grant, and its is costing me a total of £200 to the club and £64 for Reg/Certs to the BCU (plus 7 weekends of my time). So does it have to cost the earth???


Next year granted ... L2, WWSR, 4*WWK, and moderate water endorsement WILL cost more (I already have 1st Aid), but again will have to see if its possible to find routes at reasonable cost ...

To me for value of a potentially transferable UKCC qualification, this seems quite reasonable to me. And I must admit despite been an "experienced"" paddler, even the basic courses so far have taught me how much things have changed in the past decades, so I'm a happy bunny.

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Re: Another coach lost to good causes

Post by paddledragger »

My husband and I (??? sound like the flipping Queen!), have also come to the conclusion drawn by Baldockbabe. We are not members of a club at present - (distance to 'local' clubs, practicalities etc etc), but would still like to volunteer to help out with coaching (if needed) where we can, probably in similar situations to Adrians friend above. We are both level one coaches but the cost and effort and general faffing about now required to move towards our level 2 is such that it would likely cripple us costwise, there are 2 of us with no funding other than paying for our own courses, so we have simply binned the idea at present. Just not worth it. There's also the thing of lack of mentoring etc in our case-no-one to sign logs etc. No offence to open boaters (we are kayakers) but I tried that because I had to for the Level 1, didn't take to it ( No! really seriously) and really don't want to have to pursue it in order to move on. Appreciate many people would just advise us to join a club but we've been there and it didn't work out for us. So in essence that's another potential 2 level 2's that have given up on the idea.

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Re: Another coach lost to good causes

Post by Owen »

I started down this road earlier this year; so far I've done 2 star £20, FSRT £30. I was able to claim half of this back from the SCA. I did have a 4 star course lined up for £100, and could no doubt have claimed half back, but in the end I couldn't make it and had to let it go. Most level one courses seem to be around the £250 mark and I belive the SCA will refund upto 75%; so the cost isn't really an issue.

I'm really a sea kayaker and already have my 3 star sea, I have been sea paddling since the late 1980's. I know the sea and understand that environment, I know what's involved in paddling a sea kayak. I've only dabbled in open canoes before and can't say I'm very competent at paddling them.

Now, to be able to show someone how to paddle a sea kayak, I have to go away and spend my time learning a completely different discipline. One that I haven't done much of, don't really understand to any depth and wont have much opportunity to coach once I do get qualified. Being multi-disciplined might be an advatage for full time coaches working at outdoor adventure centres but for culb coaches its just an off putting pain.

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Re: Another coach lost to good causes

Post by chief »

I am just trying to get into coaching myself and getting really frustrated with everything that i have to do. I find it so hard to get my head round when there are loads of pre req's and each one costs more and more money. I've just finished uni with a degree in sports coaching itself and i specialised in water sports for 3 years, although i have no official paper work from the BCU becuase as a student i simply could not afford to complete the courses, even though i had covered most of it over my three years. So yes I have a degree in coaching, yes i can paddle but i still have to complete a bizillion things before i can even get my level one? Crazy system. I tried to go down the APL route but falling just short of whats required to not have to start at the bottom of the ladder. So now i am in god knows how much debt, and no further up the coaching pathway. So wish me luck as I contiune my quest to eventually become a coach, all i want is to run basic sessions and get people out on the water who would love the sport. Is that too much to ask??

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Re: Another coach lost to good causes

Post by Pickle Lily »

I'm the same. I used to hold the old Level Two Coach award. I would have actually quite liked to learn a new disipline (open boating), but as a broke student with no car it just wasn't possible. And even now as a working professional with a car, the cost is still prohibitive, not to mention the faff required. Consequently I didn't renew my BCU membership last year.

It's worth noting that I got a hell of a lot out of the L2 training and assessment courses and learning how to teach people effectively is a useful skill to have.
Charlie Gwilliam

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paddledragger
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Re: Another coach lost to good causes

Post by paddledragger »

chief wrote:all I want is to run basic sessions and get people out on the water who would love the sport. Is that too much to ask??
Sadly it would appear so in many cases. Good luck! And Pickly Lilly - we also decided not to bother renewing the BCU membership. Just wasn't worth it to us.

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Re: Another coach lost to good causes

Post by SwamP »

I usually don't even look at coaching threads because I'm so frustrated, bored and disgusted by the whole thing.

The way I'm seeing it is that when the inevitable accident happens both the victim and the responsible river leader will loose out and potentially very seriously.

It's taking the sport backwards in terms of development, expansion and safety!

Dangerous stuff Mr/Ms Decision Makers, I hope you're prepared to take responsibility!
Lets not try to understand each other. Thanks.

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Re: Another coach lost to good causes

Post by andya »

chief wrote: I've just finished uni with a degree in sports coaching itself and I specialised in water sports for 3 years, although I have no official paper work from the BCU becuase as a student I simply could not afford to complete the courses, even though I had covered most of it over my three years. So yes I have a degree in coaching, yes I can paddle but I still have to complete a bizillion things before I can even get my level one? Crazy system. I tried to go down the APL route but falling just short of whats required to not have to start at the bottom of the ladder.
Wow, that is crazy ... doesn't a dergee in coaching equate to somewhere on the UKCC scheme??? Isn't that the whole point of UKCC, transferable coaching skills??

Surely all that APL MUST count for something ... If not, its a mad, mad, mad world ...

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Re: Another coach lost to good causes

Post by BaldockBabe »

As a club we don't have the money to fund coaches though we would like to (pool fees take up most of any money we have). I have spent hours trying to get funding for coaching but to no luck as yet.

An earlier post has just cemented my decision to leave the BCU when my renewal comes up later in the year. I was considering joining the SCA (need to be a member of one to compete) and now I definately will (not to try and get funding but because at least they do help!).

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Re: Another coach lost to good causes

Post by Glyn B »

Six of our club are in the process of becoming level one coaches, (assessment this weekend,) They reported that the course (for already competent paddlers) was extemely frustrating, way too basic and overly pedantic. For the centre based coaches, two of whom were paddling sit-on-tops, it was about right.
Taking into account the pre-requisites, unbelievably frustrating bcu web sites and the reams of paperwork, I doubt that our club members experience of this course is going to encourage others to go down this path. Especially as it still only means they can coach whilst supervised.

Where are the BCU going with this?

Do they ever answer the critics?

Has anyone ever had an answer to the question, 'Why do I have to learn another dicipline in order to teach the one I want to teach?'

Someone suggested that the ukcc qual is transferrable? Into what? Presumably it's precisely because we want to teach kayaking/canoeing that we go through the bcu rather than the FA?

I've found that students need to have confidence in their instructor in order to be taken seriously, if the instructor cannot do what he's asking the student to do, they will find someone who can.

With the greatest respect for those who have done the bank based course, i suspect that their students will very quickly be looking fro someone on the water who can show them what to do. Similarly trying to instruct kayakers from a canoe (and vice versa) will present difficulties that do not occurr from discipline specific coaching.
Last edited by Glyn B on Fri Jun 12, 2009 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Another coach lost to good causes

Post by DaveB »

Slightly off topic but with regard to the last but one post why doesnt your club run pool sesions on the basis that members block book a palce for say a 5 week series and pays for it in advance. This works well for us and we make a small but steady profit on our pool sessions.

I dont think you can choose which national association you join. If your address is in England you are stuck with Canoe England if you need to be a member for coaching or for competition purposes

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Re: Another coach lost to good causes

Post by chief »

Indeed you would have thought my degree equates over, supposedly its supposed to match with a level 4. However because it is not sport specific i dont see how that would work. From my experience of working with level 4 kayak coaches, yes on the coaching process side of things it matches up but technically wise and performance wise no where near. Its just one big mess and trying to get things straight is slowly driving me insane.

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Re: Another coach lost to good causes

Post by BaldockBabe »

I am fortunate to have addresses in England and Scotland so will just chose the appropriate one!

Not sure how much your pool sessions are but we would either have to charge a prohibitive amount or have too many people in the pool to cover the costs if we don't subsidise with membership.

As for bank based coaches I think they are very valuable. When I did my swimming teaching qualification years ago I did not have to be able to prove that I could swim (though I can!) and when I was teaching I was very successful even though I never got in the water. I can't see how paddling is any different?

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Re: Another coach lost to good causes

Post by Adrian Cooper »

Glyn B wrote:Similarly trying to instruct kayakers from a canoe (and vice versa) will present difficulties that do not occurr from discipline specific coaching.
Whilst I agree with your complaint about the requirement for cross-diciplines, a coach able in both canoe and kayak can quite well coach from the alternative craft although I know some students do prefer to see skills performed to fully understand. I think this only extends so far up the skills ladder though.

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Re: Another coach lost to good causes

Post by Glyn B »

chief wrote: on the coaching process side of things it matches up.
Exactly! can't see the local tennis/football or cricket team taking me seriously without the relevant sport specific qualis?

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Re: Another coach lost to good causes

Post by Glyn B »

Adrian Cooper wrote: I think this only extends so far up the skills ladder though.
Actually I think it's the opposite Adrian, freestyle being coached from a bank base works well because the paddler is skilled enough to appreciate what he can't see he's doing but which the coach (from a slightly elevated position) can?

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Re: Another coach lost to good causes

Post by Adrian Cooper »

What I was thinking was that a coach could direct someone as to basic paddle strokes from either craft and adapt descriptions and demonstrations sufficient to get the point across. I think it would be more difficult to coach 5* kayak skills from a canoe.

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Re: Another coach lost to good causes

Post by Glyn B »

Good point, well made.

Wish the BCU website was as succint and straight forward.

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Re: Another coach lost to good causes

Post by twopigs »

All this doom and gloom - makes me even more glad that I got to level 3 in kayak and canoe before those doors were closed.... I mean .... before the system improved the Level 3 quals. I really do appreciate how folks feel about not wanting to paddle a kayak/canoe (delete as applicable) because they want to coach canoe/kayak....

One of the things I have noticed is that there are coaches out there trying to make a living out of FS&R and even 2 and 3 star charging about £50 per person per day..... I would have thought that clubs (if they want to support aspirant coaches) could organise some of those "in house" - even if it means working with nearby clubs to get enough aspirants ......
Canoeing - bigger boat, broken paddle, more skill!

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Re: Another coach lost to good causes

Post by Adrian Cooper »

Paul, the easier thing for clubs to do is to get their experienced paddlers to organise information and skill sharing workshops set a various levels to suit the needs of club members. I think this system used to be called coaching but is gradually becoming outmoded. ;-)

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Re: Another coach lost to good causes

Post by meatballs »

BaldockBabe wrote: As for bank based coaches I think they are very valuable. When I did my swimming teaching qualification years ago I did not have to be able to prove that I could swim (though I can!) and when I was teaching I was very successful even though I never got in the water. I can't see how paddling is any different?
To coach from a bank you need to understand the sport well enough to explain/demonstrate without the equipment etc and see what is going well and wrong.

To be a bank based coach you don't need to show competance to 2* ie you get it if you can't paddle very well (or haven't gotten round to doing the 2* or can only paddle one craft). I wouldn't expect to be coached by someone who can't actually swim, how are they going to explain the techniques, tell you what is going wrong and suggest improvements if they can't do it themselves?

A boat based coach can coach from the bank if they choose to, does anyone know of any swimming coaches that actually can't swim? Seems like a bit of a crazy choice of profession?

As for the qualification costing the Earth, unless you are doing it to run private courses or for a job just don't bother. You don't need it to take people out or to coach them. If you wan't to do it for personal reasons and self-gratification then don't complain about the cost :) You can read the course material online, or I'm sure someone can send it to you, you can get others to give you advice, get out and practice and you'll become a good coach.

If you want to show paddlers progression print out some 'xxxx Club Paddling Competance/Intermediate/Advanced' certificates and use the BCU assessment notes for 1-3* if you want.
Ben

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Re: Another coach lost to good causes

Post by Wilf »

Six of our coaches have just completed an L1 course. Cost ----- £75.00 each
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Re: Another coach lost to good causes

Post by Twix »

I assume that doesn't include the £39 cost of sending some boring paperwork somewhere or other and the increased membership subscription and the new CST replacement. Even if I APL and do the one day for QTS I will still have to pay all these. I will continue to help out when I am able to without the paperwork.

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Re: Another coach lost to good causes

Post by smokeyjones »

meatballs wrote: As for the qualification costing the Earth, unless you are doing it to run private courses or for a job just don't bother. You don't need it to take people out or to coach them. If you wan't to do it for personal reasons and self-gratification then don't complain about the cost :) You can read the course material online, or I'm sure someone can send it to you, you can get others to give you advice, get out and practice and you'll become a good coach.
But if you want to do any coaching with children...

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Re: Another coach lost to good causes

Post by smokeyjones »

BaldockBabe wrote: I am not going to bother at all as having to play around in an open Canadian (rather than my trusty slalom C1) does not appeal to me and I can't be bothered to pester the BCU for clarification on the issue as that is yet another hoop.
I would imagine that playing around in an open would be frowned upon by the BCU, M, (and a C1 definitely wouldn't provide the right ambience!) - might amuse the boring fishermen though. ;-) Sorry, this thread is way too serious for a sunny Saturday morning!

Seriously, I do agree with most comments in that the costs and hoops are very off-putting. I teach and have a variety of coaching quals in other sports - all obtained prior to UKCC. For these to remain current, I will have to transfer them all into the new schemes as I presume will 'old' BCU coaches. Unfortunately, despite my education background (as many on here have) I will have to sit through the same tedious sessions that will attempt to teach me how to teach - and I'll have to pay for the benefit. I will also, as far as I can make out, end up 'below' my current 'official' coaching level in many respects. I thought that the new 'transferable' system was supposed to be just that but I can find no evidence that this can actually happen. Why, if I have UKCC L2 in sport 'A', do I have to enter sport 'B' coaching (assuming the same level of personal skill and ability) at UKCC L1?

Now, having started kayaking (and now canoeing) properly about a year ago, being an advocate of getting children out doing 'adventurous' activities and having my own young family, I would like to persue canoe/kayak coaching. However, at the moment, I just can't see me being able to get all the relevant bits done anytime in the next decade!

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Re: Another coach lost to good causes

Post by meatballs »

smokeyjones wrote:
meatballs wrote: As for the qualification costing the Earth, unless you are doing it to run private courses or for a job just don't bother. You don't need it to take people out or to coach them. If you wan't to do it for personal reasons and self-gratification then don't complain about the cost :) You can read the course material online, or I'm sure someone can send it to you, you can get others to give you advice, get out and practice and you'll become a good coach.
But if you want to do any coaching with children...
Just get permission from their parents. You don't have to be qualified to be a child minder, plenty of unqualified people working in schools, PE teachers coach people in various sports they aren't qualified or experienced in and possibly more dangerous (rugby?) why would you have to be qualified to take kids paddling (not for profit)?
Ben

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UKCC transferable between sports???

Post by andya »

smokeyjones wrote:I thought that the new 'transferable' system was supposed to be just that but I can find no evidence that this can actually happen. Why, if I have UKCC L2 in sport 'A', do I have to enter sport 'B' coaching (assuming the same level of personal skill and ability) at UKCC L1?
This is a REALLY good point! This site isn't much help ....
Image
The UK Coaching Certificate (UKCC) site is currently being updated.

For the most current information on the UKCC please click on the following link:
sports coach UK - UK Coaching certificate pages

We hope to have the site active again in the very near future. Please visit again soon.
Digging into the above link this document seems the most useful, as it list the coach requirements for levels 1 to 3, and shows they are non sport specific.

It also says ...
Each qualification will be applied within a particular sport, therefore, sports will
need to determine what sports-specific knowledge will need to be included within
the qualifications to create a full qualification specification.
So looking at all this, separating the coaching qualification, from the practical sports skill seems to make A LOT of sense. UKCC looks good.
Its the BCU driven method for "determining what sports-specific knowledge will needed" that's the problem.

Or am I barking up the wrong tree?

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Re: Another coach lost to good causes

Post by twopigs »

smokeyjones wrote: Seriously, I do agree with most comments in that the costs and hoops are very off-putting. I teach and have a variety of coaching quals in other sports - all obtained prior to UKCC. For these to remain current, I will have to transfer them all into the new schemes as I presume will 'old' BCU coaches. Unfortunately, despite my education background (as many on here have) I will have to sit through the same tedious sessions that will attempt to teach me how to teach - and I'll have to pay for the benefit. I will also, as far as I can make out, end up 'below' my current 'official' coaching level in many respects. I thought that the new 'transferable' system was supposed to be just that but I can find no evidence that this can actually happen. Why, if I have UKCC L2 in sport 'A', do I have to enter sport 'B' coaching (assuming the same level of personal skill and ability) at UKCC L1?

Now, having started kayaking (and now canoeing) properly about a year ago, being an advocate of getting children out doing 'adventurous' activities and having my own young family, I would like to persue canoe/kayak coaching. However, at the moment, I just can't see me being able to get all the relevant bits done anytime in the next decade!
The good news is that there is a short UKCC L1 course for paddlesport coaching for teachers..... I know it has been made public knowledge, but I know meatballs did the course and I know who ran it. Maybve it was a pilot? Ask the folk at Nottingham about it!

And yes - there are some people needed to test this "tranferability" of UKCC coaching quals between sports!
Canoeing - bigger boat, broken paddle, more skill!

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