Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

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rob.b.666
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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by rob.b.666 »

paddledragger wrote:ALL your paddles???? You lucky b*gger! ;-) playing with paddles and feathers sounds like a pretty fun way to pass the time to me!!!
Anyone want tickets for this show ???!!!
"There is no try. Only do or do not. If you try, you will fail" - Yoda

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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by Randy Fandango »

rob.b.666 wrote:
paddledragger wrote:ALL your paddles???? You lucky b*gger! ;-) playing with paddles and feathers sounds like a pretty fun way to pass the time to me!!!
Anyone want tickets for this show ???!!!
Its quite a sight I assure you....
Giles

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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by paddledragger »

Anyone want tickets for this show ???!!![/quote]


I don't want tickets-I wana join in!!!! Why should he have all the fun to himself???? Hee Hee

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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by paddledragger »

paddledragger wrote:Anyone want tickets for this show ???!!!

I don't want tickets-I wana join in!!!! Why should he have all the fun to himself???? Hee Hee[/quote]

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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by rob.b.666 »

Randy Fandango wrote: Its quite a sight I assure you....
Giles
Didn't realise you'd met my wife................am getting worried now !!!!
"There is no try. Only do or do not. If you try, you will fail" - Yoda

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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by paddledragger »

rob.b.666 wrote:
Randy Fandango wrote: Its quite a sight I assure you....
Giles
Didn't realise you'd met my wife................am getting worried now !!!!
Oh purlease!!! Get back to work so you can pay for my new boat!! ;-)

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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by Randy Fandango »

paddledragger wrote:
rob.b.666 wrote:
Randy Fandango wrote: Its quite a sight I assure you....
Giles
Didn't realise you'd met my wife................am getting worried now !!!!
Oh purlease!!! Get back to work so you can pay for my new boat!! ;-)
Err.... Umm..... Err......
Giles

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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by paddledragger »

Err.... Umm..... Err......
Giles[/quote]

Wasn't this about kayaking some time ago?? Just ignore my other half-I do!! Only joking!!!! ;-) Have never forgiven him for trying to drown me on my first river though. His foray into playing with paddles and feathers stopped very soon after I assure you!!! hee hee

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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by Glyn B »

Sorry, I've been away for a while, been picking up some more oil.

It's a very long time since I was referred to as 'boy'! Many thanks Steve.

I have re read and tried your post and cannot argue with the idea that my wrists roll when paddling, however that still doesn't explain why you think zero feather is a non starter.

And just to be really pedantic, Feather is the difference between the angle of the blade on a paddle shaft.

Even at my age, my anatomy is reasonably symmetrical and includes two arms of similar length and a rather skinny body roughly in between the two.
At the end of each of those arms is a hand.
I am assuming that the majority of us have roughly the same layout?

In the case of the feathered paddle user, one of those hands (the control side)is pretty much fixed in position and grips the paddle shaft in that fixed position at all times. Ok so far?

In order to use the other blade, that fixed (control) hand is then rotated about the wrist (without in any way changing or loosening the grip) in order to put the non control blade in the water at the right angle. Still ok?

So other than opening to allow the shaft to rotate within it's now looser grip the non control hand stays in pretty much the same position?

With a zero feather paddle, I don't have a control hand.

Both hands grip the shaft at all times and I don't ever have to change grip for any stroke as the blade is always where it needs to be.

I apologise in advance if that isn't as clear as it might be but that is what I understand.

I also reiterate that it suits me, I don't expect anyone to follow me. Use what you're happy with and what works for you.

By the way, of course I want to be different, where's the fun in being a sheep and agreeing with everyone else?
This forum would be a pretty dire place without controversy?

The Zero Feather Fanboy!

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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by Steve B »

Spyder wrote:I have re read and tried your post and cannot argue with the idea that my wrists roll when paddling, however that still doesn't explain why you think zero feather is a non starter.
Nowhere do I say, or hint, or imply, or suggest, that "zero feather is a non-starter". I never have, anywhere in my entire 5000+ posts on this forum. I've never used zero-feather paddles on white water, but I do understand how they work, and that they require locking the two wrists in sync which *is not how the wrists naturally work* - that's what I'm saying and that is the point of my demo. Paddling with some feather - maybe 30 or 40 degrees for typical river running - involves the least possible rolling of the wrist.

Another way to look at this - one which is not quite as easy to visualise but it's worth trying. Sit on the same upright chair but without any kind of substitute paddle shaft. Place your arms in the position they would be at the end of a very high paddle stroke. One arm is maybe a foot in front of your face with your fist a little further forward than your elbow; the other is down by your side, with your elbow bent but close to your body. There is an angle between your forearms which is typically somewhere around seventy degrees. That is the feather you would need to perform that stroke with zero wrist roll. Seventy degrees. Now lower your top arm and see how the angle between your forearms closes. As long as there is a blade in the water it never reaches zero, but it does get quite small.

In relation to joint problems, I suspect that a major reason why unfeathered paddles seem to help is that they don't require the relentless grip on the control side and the constant re-gripping on the non-control side. Neither is particularly easy on the tendons although good technique does go a long way towards alleviating problems. But the other benefit is that they oblige you to work within a smaller range of movement, paddling in a more relaxed way - I bet you use the back of the blade more often than I do, for example. How easy do you find the bow rudder? How often do you use it?

At the end of the day if zero feather paddles suit you then why should it bother me? It doesn't. But I reserve the right to explain why feather does make sense.
Steve Balcombe

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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by MrJazz »

jimkennedy wrote:
Over the years I've figured out one disadvantage to zero feather - it's a hassle to pick your paddles up from the ground with your foot (as you do when your have your boat on your shoulder). You can end up kicking them across the carpark...

Jim.

I believe this is the first universally viable argument against zero feather on this thread.

Steve, I can't follow your feather finding activities at all. This is more to do with my reading issues and I respect your opinion that, in a world of left/right dominant boating; there is an optimal feather for anyone.

However, back to my original point:

The Zero Feather Campaign

Go into your local kayak shop and ask for a set of 0 feather paddles. There will be none.

But if we all ask, once a week, for the next year.... They might just start stocking them!

Power to the consumer.

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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by MrJazz »

Also... I'd like to turn your attention to the article simon put up: http://www.simondawson.com/artkcr1.htm#b)

On reading it, there are some obviously outdated notions:
I found that when paddling a Stunt Bat
However the article can be brought up to date simply by subtracting 45 degrees from every paddle angle mentioned.

To anyone umming and arring about trying zero feather; Try this exercise (from said article):
I would strongly recommend to any paddler that you switch to a smaller feather angle. If you cannot be bothered with the hassle of changing then try this simple experiment with your paddles.

1. Stand upright holding your paddles in a normal paddling grip, with the controlling wrist straight
2. Bend the controlling wrist upwards by forty degrees.
3. Straighten it again.
4. Bend it upwards again.
5. Repeat this action five hundred times, about once every two seconds
6. Feel how tired your wrist is, and remember that you will be repeating this movement, totally unnecessarily, every time you go canoeing, until you change your feather angle to one that matches your boat.

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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by Simon »

MrJazz wrote:Also... I'd like to turn your attention to the article simon put up: http://www.simondawson.com/artkcr1.htm#b)

On reading it, there are some obviously outdated notions:
I found that when paddling a Stunt Bat
However the article can be brought up to date simply by subtracting 45 degrees from every paddle angle mentioned.
WRONG. WRONG. WRONG. WRONG. WRONG.

The article IS up to date, in that the paddle feather angles quoted are correct for the boats quoted. On my website article I said.

Racing paddlers have a very high and open paddle action, with a high top arm. This means that the arm movement angle is large, possibly up to seventy degrees.
For a marathon racer the wind resistance is important so an angle of eighty degrees will reduce wrist distortion markedly but not increase wind resistance too much.
A slalom paddler has a slightly shorter boat boat, and a reasonably similar high paddle action, but is not worried about wind resistance. Seventy degrees may be about right.
General touring boats of about four metres length have a medium paddle action; halfways between the racer and the playboat. A sixty degree feather angle seems to be the best compromise.
As the boat length gets shorter and shorter, the boat is slower, and the paddle are action gets even lower and lower, and most squirt boat, playboat or Topolino paddlers use no more than a forty five degree arm movement, and hence a forty five degree feather.


You need to look at the article on the webpage to see what I mean by "arm movement angle". The main thrust of the article is that you match the feather to the boat. Long fast racers have a high feather, short high drag playboats have a low one, and boats in the middle range have a feather in the middle range.

Modern playboats are shorter and slower than the boats in my article, and so about a twenty degree feather would be fine. Some modern creekboats are not much difference in length to the stuntbat, and so forty five degrees is probably a good choice to go for.

Simon

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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by paddledragger »

Crikey!!!!

:-)

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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by Simon »

paddledragger wrote:Crikey!!!!

:-)
Sorry, did I get a bit heated there?

It's this new functionality - it makes playing with colours a bit too easy and tempting.

Simon

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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by paddledragger »

Nah! I just liked the word 'Crikey'!!!! There it is again see!!

A few of us have got a bit heated in this campaign however what would the world be without a bit of passionate debate!!! :-)

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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by DanH »

paddledragger wrote:Nah! I just liked the word 'Crikey'!!!! There it is again see!!

A few of us have got a bit heated in this campaign however what would the world be without a bit of passionate debate!!! :-)
There are always a few master debaters in here ready to get passionate!

Personally I have been doing my own research and calculations (I do the odd ergonomic assessment for work) and have concluded that the theoretical most ergonomic feather (based on n=5) is between 0 & 18 degrees.

There you go, you can't argue with science! ;-)

Dan (resident brianiac)

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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by Chris Bolton »

We had a thread on this topic a year or two back, and I tried but failed to understand Steve's point. Now I think I've sorted it in my head - it proves that we're all right to some degree, and that different people are comfortable with different things.

If I try Steve's experiment with my hands in the zero feather position, it just proves what I knew already, that I don't rotate the paddle.
If I assume I paddle with right hand control, I get 15º to 30º right feather, depending on how high I raise my top arm.
If I assume I paddle with left hand control, I get 15º to 30º left feather, similarly.

It's the realisation that Steve's experiment can demonstrate equal and opposite feather depending on the chosen control hand which has helped me understand. I also realised that the outcome is influenced by whether you choose left, right or neutral control.

Like Spyder, I then think that since I'm roughly symmetrical, and I can't have left and right feather simultaneously, I'm better off with zero.
But this does mean that I need to rotate the shaft or roll one or other of my wrists to allow for the angle my top arm is at. In fact, what I choose to do is loosen my grip with the top hand - which is good technique anyway, I think. This allows me to pull with a straight grip on my bottom hand. I usually use a fairly low angle on the sea, so I only need allow a small rotation. If I'm using a high angle, it's either for a very short period or I'm using wings, which self align when held in a loose grip, so that works as well.

So in summary, I can choose right hand control (with right feather), left hand control (with left feather), or bottom hand control (zero feather). Zero suits my paddling style (and possibly my arm / body geometry? I have long arms) and I like the other advantages. But I can see that others may choose other ways and find them good.

So thanks MrJazz for raising the topic, and thanks Steve for finally helping me understand what goes on, even if it did take me 2 years to follow your point - despite trying! (Those of you who like me are engineers will understand why I need to know why things work, not just that they do.)

Chris

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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by Steve B »

Chris Bolton wrote:If I assume I paddle with right hand control, I get 15º to 30º right feather, depending on how high I raise my top arm.
If I assume I paddle with left hand control, I get 15º to 30º left feather, similarly.
It'll be obvious to you as an engineer that the difference between your results and mine (more feather) is in the position of our arms, but how much of that is due to the length of our arms or the breadth of our shoulders, and how much is what we do with them - our paddling style - well, I'm not sure but I think style is the biggest factor. In a real boat (and this is where some of Simon's stuff comes in) style is partly dictated by the demands of the boat, hence less feather for short, wide playboats, etc. Sometimes style is driven by conditions - such as low paddling style on open water; sometimes by other aspects such as using both blades together for a playboating move, or presenting the narrowest profile when negotiating a slalom gate. Then there are the issues explained by Jim Snyder in the page someone linked to earlier in the thread, suggesting that wrist rolling (which increases the need for feather) is desirable for paddling comfort and efficiency. So there are many different factors which feed into this and my little demo looks at just one part of it.
Steve Balcombe

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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by Glyn B »

I think this needs acouple of gallons of unleaded to keep it going. . . . Ah, there we are!

All these arguments are well argued but still are ignoring one fact. Ie:- The feather (whether 5, 15, 30 or 90) still only affects the non control hand!!!

The control hand remains in the same position on the shaft relative to the blade!!!

So unless you swap control hands with each stroke (and I can't work out anyway of doing that???) One hand must be working a non feathered blade!

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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by Simon »

Spyder wrote:I think this needs acouple of gallons of unleaded to keep it going. . . . Ah, there we are!

All these arguments are well argued but still are ignoring one fact. Ie:- The feather (whether 5, 15, 30 or 90) still only affects the non control hand!!!

The control hand remains in the same position on the shaft relative to the blade!!!

So unless you swap control hands with each stroke (and I can't work out anyway of doing that???) One hand must be working a non feathered blade!
Sorry - what do you mean the last sentence of the last paragraph - could you please explain what "working a non feathered blade means".

Simon

PS. There is no right answer to feather, just a lot of complex choices based on your boat length and drag, the style and type of paddling you do, and even how knackered your body is and how well it absorbs stress. We each have to understand the issues as best we can and make our own choice. Understanding the issues properly can take some knowledge of enginering and dynamics, an ability to visualise in three dimensions, and a bit of knowledge of human physiology. Good luck.

When I paddled a lot I knew there was no single correct choice. All my paddles were splits and I would adjust the feather through the trip as and when I needed to.

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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by Steve B »

Spyder wrote:All these arguments are well argued but still are ignoring one fact. Ie:- The feather (whether 5, 15, 30 or 90) still only affects the non control hand!!!

The control hand remains in the same position on the shaft relative to the blade!!!
There are two misunderstandings in that. First the control side is not fixed - wrist rolling makes a considerable difference. Secondly, the position of the *arm* on the control side affects the blade angle on the non-control side.

(To be more precise about this business of the height of the arm - it's not just that, it's also the position of the lower arm, and in particular how close to the hip the blade is - which in turn brings paddle length and width of hull into the reckoning. But to state and re-state that every time in the name of precision is hopefully not necessary.)
Steve Balcombe

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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by Unstabler »

MrJazz wrote:
However, back to my original point:

The Zero Feather Campaign

Go into your local kayak shop and ask for a set of 0 feather paddles. There will be none.

But if we all ask, once a week, for the next year.... They might just start stocking them!

Power to the consumer.
But as I said earlier, manufacturers will always set feather to the most popular angle. I think this thread has established that while 0° suits some people, they are not in the majority (and again, I really contest your initial assuption that it's because we're all too afraid to buck an irrational trend). I love the idea of "power to the consumer", but market forces are against you.
Paul (Un)Stabler

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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by paddledragger »

There you go, you can't argue with science! ;-)

Ok Dan I won't. My tiny brain is getting addled with all these posts!!! Hee hee. You don't paddle with Clitheroe CC do you?

The only thing I can conclude is that I use a zero blade with both my playboat - a teeny tiny project 45 and my river runner which is at the moment an ammo but I have been demoing a mamba 7.5 with same blade (obviously a much larger boat) and find it to be working just as well with all three boats, think the ammo might be giving way to the mamba but that's by the by! Maybe I am automatically changing my style to suit each boat without noticing I am doing so- which I guess might make sense. Anyway, different strokes for different folks, I am definitely not as technically minded as some of the chaps posting here (I'm a woman - gimme a break), just know it works for me!!

I just wondered, as this campaign was originally to say that you have to wait forever if you want a zero feather blade, does anyone know if they have this problem abroad (I have v little experience of travelling sadly) or do paddlesport shops abroad stock zero feathers more than they do in this country? Just a thought that popped into the cavernous space up there!!

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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by Simon »

Steve B wrote:
Spyder wrote:All these arguments are well argued but still are ignoring one fact. Ie:- The feather (whether 5, 15, 30 or 90) still only affects the non control hand!!!

The control hand remains in the same position on the shaft relative to the blade!!!
There are two misunderstandings in that. First the control side is not fixed - wrist rolling makes a considerable difference. Secondly, the position of the *arm* on the control side affects the blade angle on the non-control side.

snip
This is the key.

Yes "The control hand remains in the same position on the shaft relative to the blade"

BUT - as Steve correctly says "the control side is not fixed - wrist rolling makes a considerable difference"

Whilst the control hand is fixed relative to the blade, the wrist is a hinge, and the control hand rolls up and down at the wrist on each paddle placement to align the non-control blade in the water. That rolling up and down is tiring, and applying a lot of paddle force through a wrist which is heavily cocked can be stressful (word used in the engineering sense). So choosing the correct feather to minimise controlling wrist movement is what counts.

You can't understand this unless you look carefully at how the control side wrist works in the paddle cycle. It is not just the hand, arm and paddle.

Simon

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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by Glyn B »

I thought we were talking about feather, not wrist rolling?

When you hold a paddle with your control hand, the blade is at 180 to your knuckles and does not vary. Therefore that blade is not feathered and takes no part in that action.

By the way, the wrist isn't a hinge (monoaxial) joint. It's a condyloid (biaxial).

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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by Unstabler »

Ok, let me try and explain what is being said in another way. The amount of feather you have affects the amount you will have to roll your wrist with each stroke. You can't talk about one without considerring the other.

If you imagine taking a totally vertical paddle stroke on the left side of the boat with a 0° feather - The power face of both blades will face the back of the boat, which means my right hand knuckles will have to point out to the left, when the most comfortable place for them would be to face backwards. In this scenario 90° feather would be best.

If it was possible to take a perfectly horizontal paddle stroke, your right hand knuckles would face directly up with 0° feather. This feels comfortable.

Now, in the real world we don't take perfectly verical strokes, and we don't take perfectly horizontal paddle strokes. The more horizontal your stroke the less feather you need.
Paul (Un)Stabler

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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by Steve B »

Spyder, you seem to be stuck in a certain mindset that is preventing you seeing some very basic things - on which everything else depends.

1) You can't talk of one blade being "feathered" in relation to the hand on the same side. Feather is a measure of the *difference* between the two sides, and it is what allows the control hand to operate the non-control blade comfortably. (It's worth noting that while the non-control blade is in the water, its angle in relation to the hand on that side, which is now gripping it of course, is exactly the same as it would be if it were the control hand - or indeed a 'zero feather' hand.) Feather is about difference between blades, *not* difference between hand and blade.

2) The amount of feather and the amount of wrist-roll are intimately connected, as both (along with arm position) control the blade angle on the non-control side.
Steve Balcombe

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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by Bod »

Steve I'll try to help. I can't cope with this anymore.

Spyder 0 feather = 0 feather on each side.
20 degrees feather is 10 degrees feather on one side and 10 degrees feather on the other, not 20 and 0.

That should help you realise that ~X degrees (x/2 degree on either side) is a much more natural postion for BOTH your wrists. Grasp that and then read what Simon and Steve wrote. Please. I used x because it is not fixed. it could be anything from near 0 to ~75 degrees.
Last edited by Bod on Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by Steve B »

Spyder wrote:By the way, the wrist isn't a hinge (monoaxial) joint. It's a condyloid (biaxial).
Yes, but we are discussing the axial rotation of the paddle and therefore that part of the wrist's movement. The next stage is to consider cranks in their various forms, but we seem to be having enough trouble with one dimension so I'm not going to go there!
Steve Balcombe

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