Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Inland paddling
Glyn B
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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by Glyn B » Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:29 pm

Don't let facts get in the way of a good piece of ill considered, poorly explained bull eh?

To those with open minds and/or sore elbows, give zero a try! If you don't like it or can't get on with it go back to a feather!
Last edited by Glyn B on Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

GoldTopo
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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by GoldTopo » Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:39 pm

Can you get handbags with zero feather handles?

Steve B
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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by Steve B » Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:47 pm

Just for anyone who hasn't worked this out yet. Spyder likes using zero feather paddles, probably because it makes him (her?) look "different" and therefore exclusively knowledgeable. Someone comes along with a simple demonstration of what several people have now said, which is that zero wrist roll does NOT equate to zero feather. Spyder puts down this simple, practical demonstration which he/she hasn't actually tried, for being pseudo-science. Where did I or anyone else claim that this was science? Hold a broom handle, fake a paddling action without the distraction of blades and see how much it rotates? Highly technical I don't think - but clearly threatening to Spyder's limited grasp of the subject.

But I'm not asking anyone to believe me. That's why I took the trouble to explain how you can prove it for yourselves.
Steve Balcombe

Glyn B
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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by Glyn B » Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:06 pm

Feather refers to the angle of one blade to the other. Mine have no feather. I like 'em but have no issue with folk who don't.

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jimkennedy
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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by jimkennedy » Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:15 pm

I switched to zero feather a number of years back after polling people and failing to find anyone who could give me a good, contemporary rationale for the traditional feathered paddles. I asked around about just reducing the angle a bit, but it seemed that most people who went for a reduced angle did so as a hedge-your-bets kind of approach, which didn't seem to make much sense.

Zero feather is great, in my opinion. No chance of tendonitis, none of that torqueing to get the blade down for support strokes, and since you never move your wrists, you always 'know' how your blade is oriented.

It only takes a few hours at most to get used to it - it's not really that big a deal to switch (and I'm a lefty who was taught to paddle righthanded).

Over the years I've figured out one disadvantage to zero feather - it's a hassle to pick your paddles up from the ground with your foot (as you do when your have your boat on your shoulder). You can end up kicking them across the carpark...

Jim.

Glyn B
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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by Glyn B » Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:21 pm

Heehee, yep, I forgot that about that minor disadvantage. Can also be a bit awkward when putting them in a paddle bag with feathered blades.

ChrisMac
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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by ChrisMac » Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:03 pm

Having had zero feather for a couple of years now I an going to go back to about 30 degrees for the following reasons.

Bow rudders on the non control hand side do require you to twist your wrist round much further.

I find that when playing in a hole I trip over the no working blade if it catches the water and so the paddle gets stuck in the water and is much harder to lift back out because it is at the same flat angle as the working blade. (This maybe my technique but thats what happens to me)

Even playing if there is a strong headwind, not an uncommon experience esp at HPP where I paddle the most, then the flat blades are a pain and you have to push the non working blade forward

On a practical note, as the author of this thread has found, they are a pain to get hold of. So unless you have a spare set you are happy to use for however long it takes to get a replacement and personally Im not prepared to wait that long. Personally I have found that they advantages that they do offer dont offset the disadvantages and the restriction on replacement.

ChrisMAC

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jimkennedy
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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by jimkennedy » Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:04 pm

I don't know how it is in Britain, but here in Dublin the shops stock Rough Stuff paddles with one blade not glued in. The shop does it for you to your preferences on the spot. Or you can call out to the factory and get Mark to do it for you.

Can't you just fix them up yourself with a heat gun and some Araldite?

Jim.

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paddledragger
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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by paddledragger » Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:20 pm

Certainly not wishing to get involved with Steve and Spyders comms, however, WOW, doesn't a zero feather debate cause some 'fun'!! Whoopeee!! With all due respect I would say however that I am sure that Spyder does not paddle with zero feather because it makes him look different or exclusively knowledgeable, no-one notices what feather you're paddling with-or gives a damn, they just suit him - end of. If you want to get noticed for being different paddle naked or something, but a zero feather aint the way to do it! My zeros suit me, my sons suit him, most of my mates use feathered paddles and guess what? They suit them! So flaming what???? I personally wouldn't change back but that's me! As for a practical demonstration - no offence but why bother? If you fancy trying em and you like em super, smashing, gr8, go for it, if you don't, also great. No explanation as to why they do or don't work or suit or what wrist roll they might cause or whatever needed. Everyone is different, be very boring if we were all the same. Zero feathers rule hee hee ;-)

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Tom_Laws
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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by Tom_Laws » Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:37 pm

jimkennedy wrote:I don't know how it is in Britain, but here in Dublin the shops stock Rough Stuff paddles with one blade not glued in. The shop does it for you to your preferences on the spot. Or you can call out to the factory and get Mark to do it for you.

Can't you just fix them up yourself with a heat gun and some Araldite?

Jim.
After my Pre-glued Roughtstuffs fell apart I just assumed they were reverting to their origninal state.
I now use 30 degree negative cranks for no real reason, other than that they are comfy FOR ME!!!
I don't like the more expensive 45degree neutral crank, it doens't suit ME!

How do you like your shaft Jim?

Jones Chris
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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by Jones Chris » Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:44 pm

Save all the hassle and the bitching. That pole in between the two working bits only gets in the way anyway.

Hand paddles are the future!

Chris

TomWardill
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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by TomWardill » Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:55 pm

Jones Chris wrote:Save all the hassle and the bitching. That pole in between the two working bits only gets in the way anyway.

Hand paddles are the future!

Chris

Definite "What he said" here.
Although Hand Paddling C1 is kinda weird.
Tom Wardill

Steve B
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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by Steve B » Mon Dec 15, 2008 9:08 pm

paddledragger wrote:Certainly not wishing to get involved with Steve and Spyders comms, however, WOW, doesn't a zero feather debate cause some 'fun'!! Whoopeee!! With all due respect I would say however that I am sure that Spyder does not paddle with zero feather because it makes him look different or exclusively knowledgeable, no-one notices what feather you're paddling with-or gives a damn, they just suit him - end of. If you want to get noticed for being different paddle naked or something, but a zero feather aint the way to do it! My zeros suit me, my sons suit him, most of my mates use feathered paddles and guess what? They suit them! So flaming what????
Looks like you're another one who can't read, or chooses not to. The debate hasn't been about whether anyone likes or doesn't like zero feather paddles. I haven't made any comment whatsoever about whether zero feather is good or bad, and Spyder has said he doesn't care - let's, for a quiet life, take that at face value. What actually happened is that I explained how you can see for yourself how a paddle shaft rotates when you use it, and Spyder came crashing in with his ridiculous accusation:
Spyder wrote:That is the biggest load of pseudo scientific nonsense I've read! High or low style makes no difference at all.
Are you supporting that?
paddledragger wrote:I personally wouldn't change back but that's me! As for a practical demonstration - no offence but why bother? If you fancy trying em and you like em super, smashing, gr8, go for it, if you don't, also great. No explanation as to why they do or don't work or suit or what wrist roll they might cause or whatever needed.

So let's be absolutely clear about this. You're saying my explanation is unwelcome. Why? Is it because it's right?

Edit: I really do want an answer to this. Do me a favour - go back and read my post, and tell me how anybody who isn't some kind of obsessional zero-feather fanboy could possibly object to it.
Steve Balcombe

GoldTopo
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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by GoldTopo » Mon Dec 15, 2008 9:45 pm

Smiling happy people............

Dave McCraw
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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by Dave McCraw » Mon Dec 15, 2008 10:02 pm

-
Last edited by Dave McCraw on Tue Dec 16, 2008 10:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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jimkennedy
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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by jimkennedy » Mon Dec 15, 2008 10:13 pm

Tom_Laws wrote: After my Pre-glued Roughtstuffs fell apart I just assumed they were reverting to their origninal state.
I always go to the source and get the man himself to make mine up for me...
Tom_Laws wrote: How do you like your shaft Jim?
I'm ignoring the fnarr fnarr interpretation here, as it doesn't seem like Tom, but it does remind me of another advantage of zero feather - you don't need the control hand oval, so you eliminate the weak point (circular being stronger, cylindrical less so).

Jim.

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paddledragger
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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by paddledragger » Mon Dec 15, 2008 10:34 pm

I can read very well thank you. The point I was making is is this really THAT important to get this involved in it. However it appears you cannot resist having a pop at anyone who has an opinion or makes a comment or whatever way you wish to put it, on your post. No I will not go back and read it again and nor will I reply again following this because frankly it isn't worth the bother, chill out and accept that not everyone wishes to dissect the workings of the zero/none zero feather!!!! I do still believe they should be available off the shelf however should you want one.
Cheerio!

Robson
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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by Robson » Mon Dec 15, 2008 10:45 pm

Can't think of anything to say in less than 50 cha

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Simon
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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by Simon » Mon Dec 15, 2008 11:18 pm

http://www.simondawson.com/artkcr1.htm#b)

although this was written a few years ago. Modern very short playboats might now need about 20 degree feathers as standard, and creek boats a bit more.

Simon
Last edited by Simon on Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Steve B
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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by Steve B » Mon Dec 15, 2008 11:59 pm

paddledragger wrote:No I will not go back and read it again
No. I wonder why.
Steve Balcombe

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paddledragger
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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by paddledragger » Tue Dec 16, 2008 7:51 am

Despite saying I wouldn't reply again - ooops!!!!

Robson I'm with you mate!! Put it to bed! :-)

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Randy Fandango
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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by Randy Fandango » Tue Dec 16, 2008 10:16 am

Steve B wrote: obsessional zero-feather fanboy
Weren't they a band from the 80s?? Along with Echo and the Bunnymen and the Electric Sex Circus?
Giles

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paddledragger
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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by paddledragger » Tue Dec 16, 2008 10:55 am

Hee Hee. Dunno but if they weren't dya fancy starting one up??? Brilliant name for it! Imagine the T-Shirts!! :-)

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Woods
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The Feather Rap -- Jim Snyder

Post by Woods » Tue Dec 16, 2008 10:57 am


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morsey
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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by morsey » Tue Dec 16, 2008 12:10 pm

jimkennedy wrote:it does remind me of another advantage of zero feather - you don't need the control hand oval, so you eliminate the weak point (circular being stronger, cylindrical less so).
I know its personal choice but I much prefer having oval grips on both sides no matter what the angle of feather and dont really care for the weakening effect as I think it is minimal compared to the blade/shaft join area. I have seen the concept of engaging both hands and holding on (rather than allowing the non control side to rotate) used by several paddlers with paddles up to twenty five degrees, this seems to help with the control for stalls etc but still allows the subtle transition for back deck rolls. I imagine many coaches will be cringing at the very thought of this!

I have used zeros a couple of times, they feel nice and comfy for all moves where you extend both hands low and forwards (bow stalls, back blasts...) and transition from left to right (and vice versa) in a hole felt slick, but actual paddling esp. down waves and wave initiations felt awkward. I certainly would not want zero degrees for general river paddling (Forward paddling my top wrist felt uncomfortably stretched, just at the point where you want to relax it and allow the bottom hand to feel the water and make all the control moves) but for playing I can see why people like them. I do not believe they are the answer to paddling ergonomics, but then again I do not believe there is one angle that can be used for maximum effect across all kayaking disciplines and in all circumstances so it comes down to compromise and personal preference.

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paddledragger
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Re: The Feather Rap -- Jim Snyder

Post by paddledragger » Tue Dec 16, 2008 12:14 pm

Ooooooh!!!! Loving it, Loving it, Loving it!!!!!

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Randy Fandango
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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by Randy Fandango » Tue Dec 16, 2008 12:26 pm

Damn you all!! ;-)
All my paddles (and I mean ALL my paddles -- including several sets of cranks...) are set at about 60-ish degrees as that's what I moved to about 15 years ago and feel totally comfortable with.
Now Steve's interesting experiment and Jim Snyder's advice have me wanting to play about and see if its time to change.
I hope to God I can stay as I am...... :-0
Giles

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paddledragger
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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by paddledragger » Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:33 pm

ALL your paddles???? You lucky b*gger! ;-) Can only afford one set. However-there is nothing wrong with a good play about - playing with paddles and feathers sounds like a pretty fun way to pass the time to me!!! Are we still talking kayaking??

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Randy Fandango
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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by Randy Fandango » Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:49 pm

paddledragger wrote: ALL your paddles???? You lucky b*gger! ;-) Can only afford one set.
Trust me – its not that great if I then decide they’re all wrong.......
paddledragger wrote: However-there is nothing wrong with a good play about - playing with paddles and feathers sounds like a pretty fun way to pass the time to me!!! Are we still talking kayaking??
Yes – looking back I see that this……
Randy Fandango wrote:
Now Steve's interesting experiment and Jim Snyder's advice have me wanting to play about and see if its time to change.
I hope to God I can stay as I am...... :-0
……does have a slight touch of the Diiiing Doooong! about it… ;-)
Giles

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paddledragger
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Re: Zero Feather Paddles Campaign

Post by paddledragger » Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:22 pm

Ah but if they are all wrong at least you have more than one to sell on -though obviously more than one to replace too!!! Hmmmmm OK you win!!!

Still, think how much fiddling with the angle of dangle you will have to do if you have more than one set! How much fun can one man have messing with a load of paddles and feathers whilst on dry land. ;-)

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