A message to paddlers from the WCA Board

Inland paddling
Londonpaddler
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Post by Londonpaddler » Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:40 pm

Brilliant - full credit to the WCA. Cutting off an income stream for principles is not an easy thing to do.

Eliza Dolittle
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Post by Eliza Dolittle » Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:59 pm

Thanks WCA.
A bold move.

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Chris W
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Post by Chris W » Thu Jul 17, 2008 7:33 pm

Oh I see. Well done "Extreme Flight". I've just re-read the WCA statement. OK, so CT is planning to 're-model' the charging structure and is expecting kayakers to pay for car parking (and changing facilities, if they chose to use them). So, instead of paying a 'facilities' charge, you'd pay on a pay-as-you-go basis for.....facilities. If you need to use the car parks to go kayaking, then kayaking won't really be 'free' then. But then how could it be- you're sharing a site and it costs money to maintain it.

Until CT announce what the new charges are going to be, we've only got half the story. Let's assume that it'll work out much cheaper, well, it will if you've got a car load of boaters who don't belong to the WCA or BCU.

Was this prompted by lobbying or the JJ debacle? Well, on the one hand the original CT message thread has been rumbling on for an eternity (well, 9 months) without any response offering to review the price structure. On the other hand, within a month or so of it going pear shaped at JJs, the current charging structure has suddenly been dropped, before they've had time to even start thinking about what will replace it.

So, I guess you have JJ to thank, in a way. Without him, this might not have happened.

Anyway, whatever way you look at it, it's a good move.

Chris W.

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aleeivel
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Post by aleeivel » Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:22 pm

The primary complaint about the WCA charging for CT was the principle of charging for access to a river which was against the policy that access to rivers should be free.

Most people have no problem paying a reasonable amount of money for a service such as parking, changing facilities, showers etc.

Anyone who has ever been involved with any large organisation will know that decisions like this dont just happen overnight, I would easily expect it to take 9 months from the first discussions to actually making a decision. The JJ's situation and all the publicity may have just speed-ed things up a bit!!!
Andy Lee
www.thecanoeclub.com

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Not all those who wander are lost;
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Tom_Laws
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Post by Tom_Laws » Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:39 pm

Good work.

Big thanks to Pam, Ash, Phil Blain and the others at the WCA for all they have done recently.

As I said in a recent text... "Just gotta sort out JJ and North Wales is done!"

:-)

Tom

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Dave @ TRC
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Post by Dave @ TRC » Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:46 pm

So whats going to happen with the new south wales course will that be free to.? The WCA will be in control of that to wont they and they cant charge for one and not the other. ??

Dave
Suicide is man's way of telling God, "You can't fire me - I quit."



WWW.THERIVERCREW.CO.UK

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Tom_Laws
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Post by Tom_Laws » Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:57 pm

Dave @ TRC wrote:So whats going to happen with the new south wales course will that be free to.? The WCA will be in control of that to wont they and they cant charge for one and not the other. ??

Dave
Go and look up the following Dave.....

Managed River

Man Mad Course with gert big pumps.



When are you off to Gnarway?

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JohnO
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Post by JohnO » Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:03 pm

A big thanks to the WCA for opening up access and removing a another potential issue in the "free river access for all" debate.

Only need to find some free time to get down and paddle now.

John.

Nofio Mawr
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Post by Nofio Mawr » Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:33 pm

I posted this on this site on 28th June........[/b]


what would anyone think about? .......

1. An off site car park. With one price?

2. Then a turnstyle that lets one person at a time through to the access point. With one price?

3. Then adjacent to the above, a gate that lets a raft, a kayak, an orka, or an open boat, or one of them stategicly cut wheely bin things through. At a variable prices to suit?

4. Then an admission charge to use the facilities-ie showers etc?..

Would a full breakdown of these prices still equate to £7 for memebers? and £14 for non members?
Probably so....and a bit more! for all the segregation work that they would have to do as listed above!

Now to summarise all the crap that's going on and will go on forever because these questions are not answered.....

All that people want-is to know is

A. WHAT EXACTLY ARE WE PAYING FOR?
and
B. WHY?

When we are told that we have to pay the same price for the lower...IT ISN'T FAIR!

When there are events on, you are not participating and some of the areas are out of bounds ....IT ISN'T FAIR!

When we are told that we have to pay the same price when there are the slalom paddlers on the river with their most obnoxious coaches demanding that they take presedence on the river....IT ISN'T FAIR! (controversial I know, but true)

taking all this into account UNTIL PEOPLE KNOW WHAT THEY ARE ACTUALLY PAYING FOR?.....IT IS NOT FAIR!

WOULD A FULL BREAKDOWN AS DESCIBED ABOVE SOLVE THE ISSUE?


Now I was pee'd off with "Knees" suggestion that quote "this was not a constructive post"? this was two negatives and then I needed a positive

As a well repected famous intellectual philospher once said (AP) and wrote in his book.........

Needless to say, I had the last laugh!

Jurassic Park!

We are all laughing and it least it is now fair

Thanks for listening WCA,

knees, Himla, kiss my face

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Mark R
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Post by Mark R » Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:02 am

Nofio, brilliant.
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Dave @ TRC
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Post by Dave @ TRC » Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:30 am

Tom_Laws wrote:
Dave @ TRC wrote:So whats going to happen with the new south wales course will that be free to.? The WCA will be in control of that to wont they and they cant charge for one and not the other. ??

Dave
Go and look up the following Dave.....

Managed River

Man Mad Course with gert big pumps.



When are you off to Gnarway?
Monday and feelingjustfinge telling us how the voss area is on turbo is no helping to stop my arse twiching ?

NO WAY here we come

DAve
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Unstabler
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Post by Unstabler » Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:30 am

Firstly - Great news. This is such a positive step towards sending the message that rivers are FREE to paddle.

Secondly - For everyone who is worried about how the "restructuring" will take shape, I suggest until they decide how they will restructure, and the site is completely free, we all do the right thing and make a contribution when ever we use the facilities (by which I mean the showers and car parks - not water!). If we all do this they may find there is no need to add pay and display parking, coin operated showers etc.

Just my thoughts.
Paul (Un)Stabler

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Chris W
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Post by Chris W » Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:58 pm

Hello 'Nofio' (unusual name...). Thank you for an entertaining post, particularly the bit about 'Himla'. Brilliant.

Personally, I'm fairly relaxed about CT- I rarely visit the place- I just wanted to move the previous interminable message thread on from complaining about the existing pricing to agreeing on what pricing structure you want instead and how it'd work. You'd then have been able to offer CT a positive solution instead of a negative problem. That's all. With hindsight, about as easy as 'herding cats'.

CT has done the easy bit- next comes the hard bit- working out what they're going to do instead.

Yep, credit where credit's due, in your earlier post you did have a go at proposing a solution. I just couldn't make sense of it. You seemed to be suggesting that CT should invest in coin operated turnstiles at 'access points', presumably between the car park and river put in, i.e. charge people for.....access. To raise the same total revenue, maybe more.

Ho hum.

So, the question still stands, except it's no longer a hypothetical question- what do you think users should pay (for parking and showers?), and how would it be managed?

Chris W.

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quicky
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Post by quicky » Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:05 pm

If access is free are rafts going to be let back on? (As long as we are all insured of course).

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James F
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Post by James F » Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:16 pm

What has no price has no value - expect to see paddlers taking liberties with the facilities and at the same time becoming second class citizens - the river where the paid-for ducky session is king.

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Slaphappy
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Post by Slaphappy » Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:31 pm

A fantastic move from the WCA, I will be joing as an access supporter. This is a very pro-active move and I will not be renewing my BCU membership, the only reason for membership was for discounted trips to CT.

On another note I hope that the carparking charge is not designed to replace the funding directly from lost revanue but i am sure that charge would be reasonable sum and the charge for showers is only if you use them rather than a pre-requisite to paddling.

For the WCA, when considering car parking charges note that many paddlers will not have their cars full of people so a fair charge needs to be worked out I personally would not object to 1/2 day and day ticket I take it there will be no charge if you are dropping off to shuttle the lower? or are you thinking charging access for all cars irrespective of time on site? Perhaps a tie in with the carpark in bala aswell? one charge does both??


Nofio: I missed the context of the original post so i am a bit lost to what you are getting on about, presume the previous thread notes the context but I guess this is now relevant (maybe not though ;-)) given the announcement


A. WHAT EXACTLY ARE WE PAYING FOR?
Car Parking,
Showers / facilities


B. WHY?
Maintenance of buildings and infrastructure including road access payment of commercial tax to loacal authority, commercial water rates, staffing of first aid facility.


Lets wait and see what the re-structure and new payment method is going to be then before we are all too excited.

Nofio Mawr
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Post by Nofio Mawr » Sat Jul 19, 2008 12:54 pm

Knees- Firstly, I am am happy that you can see the funny side and we're now friends.

It's funny but I now all of a sudden feel that I have been recieved with approbation.

You have probably guessed that I was a bit peeved that you did not have the visibility of my earlier post.
I did not say anything about coin operated turnstyles though.

The person who mentioned second class citizens has a point!
They will have to think long about having to address this.(be interested in what you think about this Mark? but I don't think a gas shower is the answer).
The WCA will also have to think long and hard about recouping this now lost revenue in a way that people respect and think is fair.
I know people are not going to like it but this is going to be essential to maintain the good clean standards of the facilities. I personally think that they are currently of an excellent standard and I expect that sustaining this is going to become difficult.


So the next question is what do you suggest are other ways of improving their revenue in a way that people think is fair.....
....and in a way that would benefit the facilities?



I think that the WCA recognise that this latest move will encourage more people to join the WCA and that is a good thing for all in water citizenship.


We all know what a drag it is to carry boats, would a shuttle service be good?

Would a top site chargable chaging room be good?

Chargable camping facilities that are paddler friendly?-(unlike the other local campsite that is currently run by the gistapo).


Monkey Tennis?..................

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aleeivel
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Post by aleeivel » Sat Jul 19, 2008 4:20 pm

Nofio Mawr wrote:So the next question is what do you suggest are other ways of improving their revenue in a way that people think is fair.....
....and in a way that would benefit the facilities?

I think that the WCA recognise that this latest move will encourage more people to join the WCA and that is a good thing for all in water citizenship.

We all know what a drag it is to carry boats, would a shuttle service be good?

Would a top site chargable chaging room be good?

Chargable camping facilities that are paddler friendly?-(unlike the other local campsite that is currently run by the gistapo).
All good ideas, particularly the shuttle, not sure there is much space for camping but if that could be arranged that would be great.

What other retail opportunities are there? Would a kit shop be viable, even franchised out? How about a bar, could be an extension of the cafe. This would be particularly popular if combined with improving the camping. During the summer months maybe a regular BBQ's. Some of these ideas are probably stupid but some might work!!!
Andy Lee
www.thecanoeclub.com

All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
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With democracy, it's your vote that counts; with feudalism - it's your Count that votes.....

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TheKrikkitWars
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Post by TheKrikkitWars » Sat Jul 19, 2008 5:51 pm

Nofio Mawr wrote:Chargable camping facilities that are paddler friendly?-(unlike the other local campsite that is currently run by the gistapo).
Its Gestapo.

aleeivel wrote:What other retail opportunities are there? Would a kit shop be viable, even franchised out?
I would hope that paddleworks bala would be offered the possiblity of new premises up at the centre before they establish another shop of their own.

aleeivel wrote:How about a bar, could be an extension of the cafe. This would be particularly popular if combined with improving the camping. During the summer months maybe a regular BBQ's. Some of these ideas are probably stupid but some might work!!!
If it's stupid but works, it isn't stupid
ONE BLADE, ONE LOVE, [TOO] MANY PIES


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Big Henry
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Post by Big Henry » Sat Jul 19, 2008 7:58 pm

TheKrikkitWars wrote:
Nofio Mawr wrote:Chargable camping facilities that are paddler friendly?-(unlike the other local campsite that is currently run by the gistapo).
Its Gestapo.
It doesn't matter - we understood.

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TheKrikkitWars
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Post by TheKrikkitWars » Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:17 pm

Big Henry wrote:
TheKrikkitWars wrote:
Nofio Mawr wrote:Chargable camping facilities that are paddler friendly?-(unlike the other local campsite that is currently run by the gistapo).
Its Gestapo.
It doesn't matter - we understood.
It does,

Image
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John Saunders
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Post by John Saunders » Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:03 pm

Sorry Krikkit, but...

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=gistapo

(WARNING: this site contains abusive language)

...Which would seem to fit quite well given some of the recent parking difficulties in the area ;-)

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TheKrikkitWars
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Post by TheKrikkitWars » Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:08 pm

John Saunders wrote:Sorry Krikkit, but...

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=gistapo

(WARNING: this site contains abusive language)

...Which would seem to fit quite well given some of the recent parking difficulties in the area ;-)
Now I severely doubt that the Ty Cornel owners are as bad as traffic wardens, 1940's german secret police* perhaps but not traffic wardens, too far!

*In your face Godwin's law!
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geyrfugl
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Post by geyrfugl » Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:51 pm

aleeivel said (sorry if this is a little off-topic)
The WCA website http://www.welsh-canoeing.org.uk/access ... rocess.htm says it does NOT include insurance which is a requirement for competition, so you will still need to waste money with CE for comp.
Is it a requirment for competition that the insurance be BCU insurance ?
Or will any policy that provides the appropriate cover be accepted ?
Those of us that carry insurance for multiple sports (such as Snowcard)
prefer not to spend a load of money reinsuring the same risks and a
requirement to do so is surely a restrictive practice likely to be in
conflict with the law ??

Andy

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TheKrikkitWars
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Post by TheKrikkitWars » Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:57 pm

geyrfugl wrote:aleeivel said (sorry if this is a little off-topic)
The WCA website http://www.welsh-canoeing.org.uk/access ... rocess.htm says it does NOT include insurance which is a requirement for competition, so you will still need to waste money with CE for comp.
Is it a requirment for competition that the insurance be BCU insurance ?
Or will any policy that provides the appropriate cover be accepted ?
Those of us that carry insurance for multiple sports (such as Snowcard)
prefer not to spend a load of money reinsuring the same risks and a
requirement to do so is surely a restrictive practice likely to be in
conflict with the law ??

Andy
You need BCU Comprehesive membership to compete in BCU sanctioned competitions (other than div 4 slaloms and div b WWR's) its nothing to do with the insurance, just another requirement of the governing body (and the BCU insurance doesn't cover you and your stuff anyway, its public liablity insurance [also indemnity insurance or equivalent for registered volunteer coaches I THINK]).
ONE BLADE, ONE LOVE, [TOO] MANY PIES


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Nofio Mawr
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Post by Nofio Mawr » Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:35 pm

Well krikkit you fell right into that one

I proffess that you are too a Germanophile!

Like to see you swim the graveyard again! so I am told!

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TheKrikkitWars
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Post by TheKrikkitWars » Sun Jul 20, 2008 12:38 am

Nofio Mawr wrote:Well krikkit you fell right into that one
Backpaddle!
Nofio Mawr wrote:I proffess that you are too a Germanophile!
You're sailing so close to invoking Godwin's law
Nofio Mawr wrote:Like to see you swim the graveyard again! so I am told!
Yes, Yes I did swim after traversing the entire graveyard upside down, I also cracked multiple ribs by hitting a rock setting up to roll my oc1 before swimming.

So I hope you'll excuse me if I don't feel too embarrassed or give a stuff what you say.

I hope to see you suffer the same injury as myself there you mean spirited swine.
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paddletastic2
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Post by paddletastic2 » Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:03 am

To bring probably the most important announcement in recent years concerning access back on track....

Well done WCA. A brave move considering the financial implications. I am sure that this has taken some months of discussion.

I await the new charging structure with interest. I echo James F's comments that the facilities must be paid for in some way and we will need to show support for the centre in some way.

I would hope that the Canoe England and the BCU can continue this good work by showing support and denouncing unreasonable access agreements.

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Post by Steve B » Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:37 am

KW, you might want to find an online Welsh-English translator and look up "Nofio Mawr"...
Steve Balcombe

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Tom_Laws
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Post by Tom_Laws » Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:45 am

TheKrikkitWars wrote:
I hope to see you suffer the same injury as myself there you mean spirited swine.
That's nice.

Did you get in to Oxford?

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