Simplest, cheapest & easiest way to avoid death is to avoid this section of river.Its an amazing section that kills numerous amounts of people young and old.
Anything that can be done to prevent this or reduce the numbers is a good idea
Afon Llugwy North Wales - Pont Cyffin Siphon Images
cswalker wrote:
Ketlle, Pot, Black
Life is about choices, too dangerous or the risks are too high, don't do it!
Typical developed world attitude, blow it up, dam it, destroy it, burn it etc etc.
We are guests of mother nature, we enjoy our outdoor activities because of her. We should be ambassodors to her and show the rest of the idiots in the UK that we are big enough to still care about what little of wild Britain is left without having to destroy it because you make a choice in an activity that you may get hurt in![/b]
Quite agree. Life is the ultimate high risk sport, it will kill you. Leave the river alone and let people use some common sense. As Darwin said its all about the survival of the fittest.
ChrisMac
- Patrick Clissold
- Posts: 1740
- Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 5:38 pm
- Location: New Zealand
- Been thanked: 2 times
I also instinctively feel that altering the river by any artificial means is very much a wrong thing to do.
But that feeling did cause me to wonder why I think that. After all the road that I drive down to get to the river, the car parking that I use to access it, the mining and oil drilling used to make and power my car (and boat) all massively disrupt the natural environment - far more than removing some rock (which if done carefully probably wouldn't even be noticeable to the casual eye - not something you could say about the A55 or A5). How many people would be happy to lay in a 4x4 track to get to a remote river then be unmovingly precious about changing the nature of the river its’ self.
I guess to some extent it is because it would purely be for my gratification, rather than having any greater social utility. More importantly, if you got rid of it then you wouldn't be able to go and look at and take pictures of an impressive natural syphon - this is the main reason as far as I'm concerned.
Anyway, in this case I don't see a need anyway as, syphon or not, it isn't going to suddenly make the Llugwy into N Wales' answer to the Etive...
But that feeling did cause me to wonder why I think that. After all the road that I drive down to get to the river, the car parking that I use to access it, the mining and oil drilling used to make and power my car (and boat) all massively disrupt the natural environment - far more than removing some rock (which if done carefully probably wouldn't even be noticeable to the casual eye - not something you could say about the A55 or A5). How many people would be happy to lay in a 4x4 track to get to a remote river then be unmovingly precious about changing the nature of the river its’ self.
I guess to some extent it is because it would purely be for my gratification, rather than having any greater social utility. More importantly, if you got rid of it then you wouldn't be able to go and look at and take pictures of an impressive natural syphon - this is the main reason as far as I'm concerned.
Anyway, in this case I don't see a need anyway as, syphon or not, it isn't going to suddenly make the Llugwy into N Wales' answer to the Etive...
Stuart
- MattBibbings
- Posts: 864
- Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 10:14 am
- Location: Otley, West Yorkshire
Nature is taking care of this syphon for us. It has been formed by the force, volume and shape of the water flowing over it. It will collapse. In time. Till then, walk round it if you don't like it.
The idea of speeding up a natural process to make it safer now is very sad indeed.
Trees in the river. Chainsaw. No probs with that. Just like I have no problem with clearing vegtation from crags to make them climbable. But to extend that analogy, blowing up rock to make rapids easier? It's paddlings version of chipping and anyone that does it needs a good seeing too.
The idea of speeding up a natural process to make it safer now is very sad indeed.
Trees in the river. Chainsaw. No probs with that. Just like I have no problem with clearing vegtation from crags to make them climbable. But to extend that analogy, blowing up rock to make rapids easier? It's paddlings version of chipping and anyone that does it needs a good seeing too.
- banzer
- Posts: 3309
- Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 11:37 pm
- Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
- Has thanked: 3 times
- Been thanked: 3 times
I feel that all those whose blood is currently 'boiling' should get off their high horse. Humans have changed the world beyond all recognition. We're all guilty as charged, every time we start our car engine or turn on a light.
So in a bid to escape from this polluted world of nature pillaging, sometimes I like to go and do a (relatively) clean and unpolluted sport, called kayaking. I like to paddle nice, clean, bedrock, multi-drop class 4+/5 rapids, and there aren't a huge number of them around. The one in my photo is at the end of just such a rapid- it's in the middle of nowhere, and no-one ever sees it (because you wouldn't know it was there from the nearby track). What harm would be done if this arch were made to 'go away'. The farmer's dog would be less likely to drown. A freaking awesome rapid would be created. An aesthetically pleasing rapid would still be aesthetically pleasing. It's a win - win. Seems odd that I'm getting crucified for this when plans to build a boom to alter the Kinlochleven playhole get universal approval. What's the difference?
And btw this is all hypothetical, of course I'm not going to do it, I have no dynamite, and it's illegal. So don't get too het up. The Kiwis have it right, as Dr. Robin said. They just get stuck in and deal with things. As long as no-one stands to lose, I don't see a problem.
Rich.
So in a bid to escape from this polluted world of nature pillaging, sometimes I like to go and do a (relatively) clean and unpolluted sport, called kayaking. I like to paddle nice, clean, bedrock, multi-drop class 4+/5 rapids, and there aren't a huge number of them around. The one in my photo is at the end of just such a rapid- it's in the middle of nowhere, and no-one ever sees it (because you wouldn't know it was there from the nearby track). What harm would be done if this arch were made to 'go away'. The farmer's dog would be less likely to drown. A freaking awesome rapid would be created. An aesthetically pleasing rapid would still be aesthetically pleasing. It's a win - win. Seems odd that I'm getting crucified for this when plans to build a boom to alter the Kinlochleven playhole get universal approval. What's the difference?
And btw this is all hypothetical, of course I'm not going to do it, I have no dynamite, and it's illegal. So don't get too het up. The Kiwis have it right, as Dr. Robin said. They just get stuck in and deal with things. As long as no-one stands to lose, I don't see a problem.
Rich.
www.neviscanoes.co.ukA. Boater wrote:It's all Pierre's fault
- Patrick Clissold
- Posts: 1740
- Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 5:38 pm
- Location: New Zealand
- Been thanked: 2 times
Don't let this turn into another pollution debate, it isn't. All we are saying is that there are plenty of rivers about, the dangers involved such as siphons are part of the package, it is what makes the sport 'adventurous'. If you want the sport to be danger free and start altering things then, in my opinion, it takes everything away from the sport.banzer wrote:I feel that all those whose blood is currently 'boiling' should get off their high horse. Humans have changed the world beyond all recognition. We're all guilty as charged, every time we start our car engine or turn on a light.
I think that most people on here already paddle mans altered features. One word, Tryweryn. Not really bothered what you do to PC I still ain't going anywhere near it.
Lee
.....................................................................
The lights are on and burning brightly. Shame about the power cut.
.....................................................................
The lights are on and burning brightly. Shame about the power cut.
- banzer
- Posts: 3309
- Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 11:37 pm
- Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
- Has thanked: 3 times
- Been thanked: 3 times
It's not just about us, it's about Joe Public, who has much less concept of what constitutes a river hazard than we do. When we look at the photo of PC we think 'uuurggh', whereas Joe Public as likely as not thinks, ooh, that's pretty, hey it's a sunny day and I fancy a dip.
I'm certainly not for severely altering nature just for the sole purpose of our pleasure. Oh no, hang on, I've just thought of ski resorts, and I like skiing. Bugger.
I'm certainly not for severely altering nature just for the sole purpose of our pleasure. Oh no, hang on, I've just thought of ski resorts, and I like skiing. Bugger.
www.neviscanoes.co.ukA. Boater wrote:It's all Pierre's fault
Just to clarify, I wasn't saying that we should blow up PC, I thoroughly agree that nature should be natural! Also, the Kiwi who blew up the rock on the shotover did so in the middle of the night because he knew he was breaking the law. But if moving one rock could open up a river for rafting and prevent accidents whilst not significantly changing the natural beauty of the river, it's difficult to argue that he did the wrong thing. Incidently, half the rapids on the shotover are artificial anyway because of all the mining activity during the goal rush!banzer wrote:The Kiwis have it right, as Dr. Robin said. They just get stuck in and deal with things.
Again, I stress that I'm not suggesting we should blow up PC, I'm just pointing out an interesting and relevant example of tampering with rapids.
- Dave @ TRC
- Posts: 1374
- Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 8:01 pm
- Location: WARRINGTON
- Contact:
cswalker wrote:Ridiculous idea, let me dynamite your car, because it is a risk to me when I ride my bicycle, oh and let me dynamite your kayak and rip up your kayaking gear because it my cause me some bizarre injury, oh in fact lets knock down your house to because I may be walking past it when an earthquake happens that will cause a bit of it to fall on me and kill or hurt me!!
I really hope this is a joke thread, if not its a retarded suggestion. As paddlers and individuals we make decisions that affect our actions. Sometimes the consequences are awful but life is about choices, suck it up and live with them. We cannot go around cotton wooling everything that hurts us once to prevent it from happening again.
And for reference, it is not the syphon on this fall that has caused most deaths, it is the river flow and caving / rock formations in the zone at the base of the fall!
First I will let the retarded go. my little girl is disabled downs syndrome and this type of comment is uncalled for .
Now tell me whats the difference
A climber putting in a bolt or brushing a holed .
JJs [ sorry jjs } sticking a JCB in the river
Paddlers cutting a tree out weather a straner or just a log to make a run in to a fall easyer .
or me not that I'm going to, Tapping a siphon.
Dave
Last edited by Dave @ TRC on Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. Go bolt something at Stanage or Pembroke and judge the reaction to follow.Dave @ TRC wrote:Now tell me whats the difference
A climber putting in a bolt or brushing a holed .
The river should be left how it is!!!
This same 'make everything easy/safe' attitude seems to be creeping into climbing too. Perhaps due to most people migrating from indoor walls or maybe due to our zero risk/blame someone else culture.
Yes I agree the drop is fooking dangerous but we as British people should be standing beside our ethics for this sort of thing.
The best boater on the water is the one with the biggest smile
- aleeivel
- Posts: 604
- Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:45 pm
- Location: Back home in Biggleswade/Work in London :-(
the rivers are there paddle the challenge, no prob. moving logs and stuff but if a river is very dangerous grade 6 get rid of that so grade 5 paddlers can paddle it, then next get ride of grade 5 so grade 4 paddlers can paddle.. carry on and grade 1 paddlers will be able to paddle all, great for them but nothing left for anyone else...cswalker wrote:Ketlle, Pot, Blackchucky-matty wrote:Sorry for this post and no doubt it will be deleted but who ever says it's a stupid idea to bow it up then you go and paddle it and see how much of a stupid idea it is then!
Its an amazing section that kills numerous amounts of people young and old.
Anything that can be done to prevent this or reduce the numbers is a good idea and I think I may well go down there myself and blow it up.
Oh and you cant compare a car and a bike to a syphon!
Call yourselves well educated, get real and live in the real world.
Life is about choices, too dangerous or the risks are too high, don't do it!
Typical developed world attitude, blow it up, dam it, destroy it, burn it etc etc.
We are guests of mother nature, we enjoy our outdoor activities because of her. We should be ambassodors to her and show the rest of the idiots in the UK that we are big enough to still care about what little of wild Britain is left without having to destroy it because you make a choice in an activity that you may get hurt in![/b]
at the end of the day you must leave the ultimate there otherwise what our the top paddlers going to strive for... and it is these who help develope our sport
Andy Lee
www.thecanoeclub.com
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
-----------
With democracy, it's your vote that counts; with feudalism - it's your Count that votes.....
www.thecanoeclub.com
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
-----------
With democracy, it's your vote that counts; with feudalism - it's your Count that votes.....
- Dave @ TRC
- Posts: 1374
- Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 8:01 pm
- Location: WARRINGTON
- Contact:
Ive a little idea, you young whippersnapper you .ERU wrote:You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. Go bolt something at Stanage or Pembroke and judge the reaction to follow.Dave @ TRC wrote:Now tell me whats the difference
A climber putting in a bolt or brushing a holed .
The river should be left how it is!!!
This same 'make everything easy/safe' attitude seems to be creeping into climbing too. Perhaps due to most people migrating from indoor walls or maybe due to our zero risk/blame someone else culture.
Yes I agree the drop is fooking dangerous but we as British people should be standing beside our ethics for this sort of thing.
You should see the state of helsby hill with all the steel belays hammered in.
Ok so what about the guys that cut the big strainer out of the glaslin last year . Me I liked the idea
But where as I have actually stood on the syphon and paddled the two previous fall in stupidly low water in questioning and do know what comes after it with the dog leg and general nastiness .
So what about rock falls can they be cleared .
Dave
- banzer
- Posts: 3309
- Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 11:37 pm
- Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
- Has thanked: 3 times
- Been thanked: 3 times
Just thought I'd mention that I've been playing that on my guitar this evening. Which is nice. Two more weeks in a cast then PADDLING yay.cswalker wrote:Hallelujah!!
www.neviscanoes.co.ukA. Boater wrote:It's all Pierre's fault
-
- Posts: 251
- Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 4:18 pm
- Location: north wales
- Contact:
Off you go I will wait at the bottom :-0clarky999 wrote:I've never paddled PC but surely when there's enough water to run the drop that syphon would be underwater?!!
Lee
.....................................................................
The lights are on and burning brightly. Shame about the power cut.
.....................................................................
The lights are on and burning brightly. Shame about the power cut.
-
- Posts: 251
- Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 4:18 pm
- Location: north wales
- Contact:
-
- Posts: 251
- Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 4:18 pm
- Location: north wales
- Contact:
Perhaps next time I run a rapid I should tie my arms behind my back just to up the danger factor or why not introduce some fresh water crocodiles in to the rivers just to spice things up a bit.
Why cant we gently assist nature by removing syphons They would eventually dissapear anyway so why cant we just give them a little push. I am not talking about hiring out a j.c.b just a little cosmetic push here and there.
Why cant we gently assist nature by removing syphons They would eventually dissapear anyway so why cant we just give them a little push. I am not talking about hiring out a j.c.b just a little cosmetic push here and there.
No that was not anything cosmetic just pathetic.....I am not to bad but the pain in the morning is horrendous. I plan to be back paddling in two months just waiting now for my physio referalcookie wrote:Is that what you did the other day ;-) How ya feelin now. Not stopping you paddling I hope.moose wrote: just a little cosmetic push here and there.