Afon Llugwy North Wales - Pont Cyffin Siphon Images

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callwild
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Post by callwild » Mon Jun 16, 2008 6:14 pm

Its an amazing section that kills numerous amounts of people young and old.
Anything that can be done to prevent this or reduce the numbers is a good idea
Simplest, cheapest & easiest way to avoid death is to avoid this section of river.

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cswalker
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Post by cswalker » Mon Jun 16, 2008 6:19 pm

Hallelujah!!

Thank you 'callwild', but apparently we aren't educated enough to make that decision!

(This topic makes my blood boil!!!)

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Post by ChrisMac » Mon Jun 16, 2008 6:26 pm

cswalker wrote:
Ketlle, Pot, Black

Life is about choices, too dangerous or the risks are too high, don't do it!

Typical developed world attitude, blow it up, dam it, destroy it, burn it etc etc.

We are guests of mother nature, we enjoy our outdoor activities because of her. We should be ambassodors to her and show the rest of the idiots in the UK that we are big enough to still care about what little of wild Britain is left without having to destroy it because you make a choice in an activity that you may get hurt in![/b]

Quite agree. Life is the ultimate high risk sport, it will kill you. Leave the river alone and let people use some common sense. As Darwin said its all about the survival of the fittest.

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Patrick Clissold
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Post by Patrick Clissold » Mon Jun 16, 2008 6:42 pm

Am I wrong in thinking that most people who have died on PC have not done so on the third drop anyway. Isn't it mostly people swimming in the pools?

This makes my blood boil too Chris. Some people are just stupid.

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Post by cucc2stu » Mon Jun 16, 2008 7:32 pm

I also instinctively feel that altering the river by any artificial means is very much a wrong thing to do.

But that feeling did cause me to wonder why I think that. After all the road that I drive down to get to the river, the car parking that I use to access it, the mining and oil drilling used to make and power my car (and boat) all massively disrupt the natural environment - far more than removing some rock (which if done carefully probably wouldn't even be noticeable to the casual eye - not something you could say about the A55 or A5). How many people would be happy to lay in a 4x4 track to get to a remote river then be unmovingly precious about changing the nature of the river its’ self.

I guess to some extent it is because it would purely be for my gratification, rather than having any greater social utility. More importantly, if you got rid of it then you wouldn't be able to go and look at and take pictures of an impressive natural syphon - this is the main reason as far as I'm concerned.

Anyway, in this case I don't see a need anyway as, syphon or not, it isn't going to suddenly make the Llugwy into N Wales' answer to the Etive...
Stuart

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MattBibbings
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Post by MattBibbings » Mon Jun 16, 2008 7:39 pm

Nature is taking care of this syphon for us. It has been formed by the force, volume and shape of the water flowing over it. It will collapse. In time. Till then, walk round it if you don't like it.

The idea of speeding up a natural process to make it safer now is very sad indeed.

Trees in the river. Chainsaw. No probs with that. Just like I have no problem with clearing vegtation from crags to make them climbable. But to extend that analogy, blowing up rock to make rapids easier? It's paddlings version of chipping and anyone that does it needs a good seeing too.

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Post by banzer » Mon Jun 16, 2008 8:41 pm

I feel that all those whose blood is currently 'boiling' should get off their high horse. Humans have changed the world beyond all recognition. We're all guilty as charged, every time we start our car engine or turn on a light.

So in a bid to escape from this polluted world of nature pillaging, sometimes I like to go and do a (relatively) clean and unpolluted sport, called kayaking. I like to paddle nice, clean, bedrock, multi-drop class 4+/5 rapids, and there aren't a huge number of them around. The one in my photo is at the end of just such a rapid- it's in the middle of nowhere, and no-one ever sees it (because you wouldn't know it was there from the nearby track). What harm would be done if this arch were made to 'go away'. The farmer's dog would be less likely to drown. A freaking awesome rapid would be created. An aesthetically pleasing rapid would still be aesthetically pleasing. It's a win - win. Seems odd that I'm getting crucified for this when plans to build a boom to alter the Kinlochleven playhole get universal approval. What's the difference?

And btw this is all hypothetical, of course I'm not going to do it, I have no dynamite, and it's illegal. So don't get too het up. The Kiwis have it right, as Dr. Robin said. They just get stuck in and deal with things. As long as no-one stands to lose, I don't see a problem.

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Post by Mark R » Mon Jun 16, 2008 8:55 pm

The Health and Safety Executive have just released their draft design for the New. Improved. Pont Cyfyng.




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Patrick Clissold
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Post by Patrick Clissold » Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:06 pm

banzer wrote:I feel that all those whose blood is currently 'boiling' should get off their high horse. Humans have changed the world beyond all recognition. We're all guilty as charged, every time we start our car engine or turn on a light.
Don't let this turn into another pollution debate, it isn't. All we are saying is that there are plenty of rivers about, the dangers involved such as siphons are part of the package, it is what makes the sport 'adventurous'. If you want the sport to be danger free and start altering things then, in my opinion, it takes everything away from the sport.

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Post by cookie » Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:12 pm

I think that most people on here already paddle mans altered features. One word, Tryweryn. Not really bothered what you do to PC I still ain't going anywhere near it.
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Post by banzer » Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:17 pm

It's not just about us, it's about Joe Public, who has much less concept of what constitutes a river hazard than we do. When we look at the photo of PC we think 'uuurggh', whereas Joe Public as likely as not thinks, ooh, that's pretty, hey it's a sunny day and I fancy a dip.

I'm certainly not for severely altering nature just for the sole purpose of our pleasure. Oh no, hang on, I've just thought of ski resorts, and I like skiing. Bugger.
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Post by Dr Robin » Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:19 pm

banzer wrote:The Kiwis have it right, as Dr. Robin said. They just get stuck in and deal with things.
Just to clarify, I wasn't saying that we should blow up PC, I thoroughly agree that nature should be natural! Also, the Kiwi who blew up the rock on the shotover did so in the middle of the night because he knew he was breaking the law. But if moving one rock could open up a river for rafting and prevent accidents whilst not significantly changing the natural beauty of the river, it's difficult to argue that he did the wrong thing. Incidently, half the rapids on the shotover are artificial anyway because of all the mining activity during the goal rush!

Again, I stress that I'm not suggesting we should blow up PC, I'm just pointing out an interesting and relevant example of tampering with rapids.

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Post by Dave @ TRC » Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:23 pm

cswalker wrote:Ridiculous idea, let me dynamite your car, because it is a risk to me when I ride my bicycle, oh and let me dynamite your kayak and rip up your kayaking gear because it my cause me some bizarre injury, oh in fact lets knock down your house to because I may be walking past it when an earthquake happens that will cause a bit of it to fall on me and kill or hurt me!!

I really hope this is a joke thread, if not its a retarded suggestion. As paddlers and individuals we make decisions that affect our actions. Sometimes the consequences are awful but life is about choices, suck it up and live with them. We cannot go around cotton wooling everything that hurts us once to prevent it from happening again.

And for reference, it is not the syphon on this fall that has caused most deaths, it is the river flow and caving / rock formations in the zone at the base of the fall!

First I will let the retarded go. my little girl is disabled downs syndrome and this type of comment is uncalled for .

Now tell me whats the difference
A climber putting in a bolt or brushing a holed .
JJs [ sorry jjs } sticking a JCB in the river
Paddlers cutting a tree out weather a straner or just a log to make a run in to a fall easyer .
or me not that I'm going to, Tapping a siphon.

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Last edited by Dave @ TRC on Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by cookie » Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:25 pm

Dr Robin wrote: activity during the goal rush!
Did they host a world cup? ;-)
Lee
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Post by PhilT » Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:31 pm

Adrian Cooper wrote:White Cliffs of Dover are a bit steep too, we could flatten them down a bit.
[/begin sarcasm][/begin old fashioned music] Please don't. It's one of the visual signs that I've returned home! [ end old fashioned music][end sarcasm]

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Post by ERU » Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:43 pm

Dave @ TRC wrote:Now tell me whats the difference
A climber putting in a bolt or brushing a holed .
You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. Go bolt something at Stanage or Pembroke and judge the reaction to follow.

The river should be left how it is!!!

This same 'make everything easy/safe' attitude seems to be creeping into climbing too. Perhaps due to most people migrating from indoor walls or maybe due to our zero risk/blame someone else culture.
Yes I agree the drop is fooking dangerous but we as British people should be standing beside our ethics for this sort of thing.
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Post by aleeivel » Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:51 pm

cswalker wrote:
chucky-matty wrote:Sorry for this post and no doubt it will be deleted but who ever says it's a stupid idea to bow it up then you go and paddle it and see how much of a stupid idea it is then!
Its an amazing section that kills numerous amounts of people young and old.
Anything that can be done to prevent this or reduce the numbers is a good idea and I think I may well go down there myself and blow it up.

Oh and you cant compare a car and a bike to a syphon!

Call yourselves well educated, get real and live in the real world.
Ketlle, Pot, Black

Life is about choices, too dangerous or the risks are too high, don't do it!

Typical developed world attitude, blow it up, dam it, destroy it, burn it etc etc.

We are guests of mother nature, we enjoy our outdoor activities because of her. We should be ambassodors to her and show the rest of the idiots in the UK that we are big enough to still care about what little of wild Britain is left without having to destroy it because you make a choice in an activity that you may get hurt in![/b]
the rivers are there paddle the challenge, no prob. moving logs and stuff but if a river is very dangerous grade 6 get rid of that so grade 5 paddlers can paddle it, then next get ride of grade 5 so grade 4 paddlers can paddle.. carry on and grade 1 paddlers will be able to paddle all, great for them but nothing left for anyone else...

at the end of the day you must leave the ultimate there otherwise what our the top paddlers going to strive for... and it is these who help develope our sport
Andy Lee
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Dave @ TRC
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Post by Dave @ TRC » Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:03 pm

ERU wrote:
Dave @ TRC wrote:Now tell me whats the difference
A climber putting in a bolt or brushing a holed .
You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. Go bolt something at Stanage or Pembroke and judge the reaction to follow.

The river should be left how it is!!!

This same 'make everything easy/safe' attitude seems to be creeping into climbing too. Perhaps due to most people migrating from indoor walls or maybe due to our zero risk/blame someone else culture.
Yes I agree the drop is fooking dangerous but we as British people should be standing beside our ethics for this sort of thing.
Ive a little idea, you young whippersnapper you .
You should see the state of helsby hill with all the steel belays hammered in.
Ok so what about the guys that cut the big strainer out of the glaslin last year . Me I liked the idea
But where as I have actually stood on the syphon and paddled the two previous fall in stupidly low water in questioning and do know what comes after it with the dog leg and general nastiness .

So what about rock falls can they be cleared .

Dave
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ERU
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Post by ERU » Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:12 pm

Dave @ TRC wrote:Ive a little idea, you young whippersnapper you
I'm 100 years old! ... or at least feel like it at the moment ..
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Post by clarky999 » Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:27 pm

I've never paddled PC but surely when there's enough water to run the drop that syphon would be underwater?!!

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Post by banzer » Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:31 pm

cswalker wrote:Hallelujah!!
Just thought I'd mention that I've been playing that on my guitar this evening. Which is nice. Two more weeks in a cast then PADDLING yay.
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Post by chucky-matty » Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:33 pm

But Banzer you now have battle of the bands to contend with!
Amazing game!

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Post by cookie » Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:35 pm

clarky999 wrote:I've never paddled PC but surely when there's enough water to run the drop that syphon would be underwater?!!
Off you go I will wait at the bottom :-0
Lee
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Post by chucky-matty » Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:38 pm

Well said cookie, oh hang on isnt the problem there because they are under water as if they were above you i'd see no problem

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Post by AlexC » Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:51 pm

[quote="moose]I am all for making rivers and their feature safe. [/quote]

They are perfectly safe as long as you keep away from them.


* Just to clarify that point, I mean well away, like stay at home and take up knitting and leave the outdoors to those who appreciate it.

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Post by chucky-matty » Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:53 pm

FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!

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Post by clarky999 » Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:54 pm

No, you've got me wrong - I didn't mean to be all 'balls to the wall,' I just meant that isn't it the stuff at the bottom that makes it dangerous?

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moose
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Post by moose » Mon Jun 16, 2008 11:02 pm

Perhaps next time I run a rapid I should tie my arms behind my back just to up the danger factor or why not introduce some fresh water crocodiles in to the rivers just to spice things up a bit.

Why cant we gently assist nature by removing syphons They would eventually dissapear anyway so why cant we just give them a little push. I am not talking about hiring out a j.c.b just a little cosmetic push here and there.

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Post by cookie » Mon Jun 16, 2008 11:11 pm

moose wrote: just a little cosmetic push here and there.
Is that what you did the other day ;-) How ya feelin now. Not stopping you paddling I hope.
Lee
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moose
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Post by moose » Mon Jun 16, 2008 11:16 pm

cookie wrote:
moose wrote: just a little cosmetic push here and there.
Is that what you did the other day ;-) How ya feelin now. Not stopping you paddling I hope.
No that was not anything cosmetic just pathetic.....I am not to bad but the pain in the morning is horrendous. I plan to be back paddling in two months just waiting now for my physio referal

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