How do you tell ...

Inland paddling
Dr Robin
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Post by Dr Robin »

Mark R wrote:Seriously - how do you judge your own performance accurately?
By watching people. But I think it's more useful to focus on specific skills rather than your overall performance. For example, when I saw John Heaton boofing I saw that he got his weight forward a little better than me so that he was in a good position to paddle away at the bottom of the drop. This allowed me to assess the deficiencies in my technique and improve.

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Shifty
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Post by Shifty »

All you need to guage how good your are is some cheese, 3 sausages, a length of rope, an aquatic mammal (you decide which type) and a radio control car and I think you'll find yourself pretty much on the way to self appreciation.

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Chas C
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Post by Chas C »

Mark R wrote:Seriously - how do you judge your own performance accurately?
Honest and open feedback from your peer's.

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Rick Foster
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Post by Rick Foster »

Dont worry about how good or not good you are, just paddle, and know your limits.

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Slartibartfast
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Post by Slartibartfast »

Shifty wrote:All you need to guage how good your are is some cheese, 3 sausages, a length of rope, an aquatic mammal (you decide which type) and a radio control car and I think you'll find yourself pretty much on the way to self appreciation.
Would a Duck Billed Platypus, Tesco Pork sausages and some cracking Wenslydale do?

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Grumpy old man
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Post by Grumpy old man »

Honest and open feedback from your peer's.
Mmm... they keep telling me I'm crap the wife tells me I'm going down hill and the kids tell me I'm a Grumpy old sod.

I don't like your theory Chas C, I'll stick with my own, I think I'm great..!

Grumpy
Paddle well, Have fun.

Lloyd Allin

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Shifty
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Post by Shifty »

Slartibartfast wrote:
Would a Duck Billed Platypus, Tesco Pork sausages and some cracking Wenslydale do?
Sounds good to me!

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tizereyes
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Post by tizereyes »

Mark R wrote:Seriously - how do you judge your own performance accurately?
When I can paddle a rapid right way up, and MarkR cannot, I know I rock ;-)

Seriously, definition as follows

[(42 - grade of river - hours on river)*(number of trashings + number of portages)] is inversely related to your performance.

Otherwise get a video of yourself paddling (and you'll discover you're not as cool as you thought!).

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AnnieC
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Post by AnnieC »

Tildmeister (Mr. T) wrote:if you paddle Grade 4+ and roll here and there, so what - if you don't swim, its a good run.
If you don't capsize though, isn't it a better run?

How good you are (some ideas) - how consistently do you paddle a certain grade of water comfortably, how much you rely on technique in certain situations rather than brute force, how quick you are to successfully react to an unexpected situation, how happy better/more experienced paddlers are to paddle with you.
Dr Robin wrote: I think it's more useful to focus on specific skills rather than your overall performance.
Good point.

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Tony Aiuto
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Post by Tony Aiuto »

Grumpy old man wrote:
Honest and open feedback from your peer's.
Mmm... they keep telling me I'm crap the wife tells me I'm going down hill and the kids tell me I'm a Grumpy old sod.

I don't like your theory Chas C, I'll stick with my own, I think I'm great..!

Grumpy
My wife and kids must be from a similar mould to yours, as they have very similar opinions about me.

I rate now rate my abilility by the ease or difficulty I paddle a graded river. I find G2 easy, I can run G3, but pray when I'm on G4.

I thought I was a competant paddler, untill I started running rivers, then realised just how crap I was. That said I never needed much, as I only ever paddled small lakes, flat rivers or canals, untill the WW bug hit.
Tony Aiuto

Dr Robin
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Post by Dr Robin »

Dr Robin wrote:I think it's more useful to focus on specific skills rather than your overall performance.
Let me explain this. Let's say we set a kayaking exam (based on someone's lines on 2 or 3 rivers), and Mark got 70%. Mark can slap himself on the back, but in what way is this useful information? How does it help Mark? It can only help Mark if he sees his marked exam so he can identify his strengths and areas for improvement.

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Tom_Laws
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Post by Tom_Laws »

But if we set our own exam, and our own mark scheme, we can mark our own papers.

To stretch a metaphor as far as I can...


Good metaphor though.

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mharrall
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Post by mharrall »

Is it a timed exam? Stopwatch.
Martin

kernel
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Post by kernel »

Tildmeister (Mr. T) wrote:if you paddle Grade 4+ and roll here and there, so what
Rocks, lack of oxygen and lack of directional control, that's what. If you're upside-down on a whitewater river you've probably fucked up. Rolling should be a last resort, IMHO.

Ross
Ross Lynch

clarky999
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Post by clarky999 »

Yeah - look at what people have been saying on the Siphon Gorge thread, capsizing here and there isn't really a luxury you can afford in some places! (Which I guess is when you walk).
is extremely dangerous for paddlers who have a tendency to rely on their roll over bracing

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TheKrikkitWars
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Post by TheKrikkitWars »

mharrall wrote:Is it a timed exam? Stopwatch.
No, Hopscotch.
ONE BLADE, ONE LOVE, [TOO] MANY PIES


Joshua Kelly

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pondweed
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Post by pondweed »

kernel wrote:
Tildmeister (Mr. T) wrote:if you paddle Grade 4+ and roll here and there, so what
Rocks, lack of oxygen and lack of directional control, that's what. If you're upside-down on a whitewater river you've probably fucked up. Rolling should be a last resort, IMHO.

Ross
Too much UK paddling - one thing it took me while to get to grips with when running big challenging rivers is that sometimes you will end up upsidedown. You just factor it into your calculations. Locals accept it.

This is of course an easier situation to accept when you're in a half mile wide river than a rocky ditch. In the UK you really want to be upright.

The same could be said about how precisely UK boaters want to run things and their refusal to go through stoppers. It's easy to spot the Brits from the Canadians on McCoy's on the Ottawa. All comes from cutting your teeth on shallow, narrow, rock-infested becks.

kernel
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Post by kernel »

Yes, obviously if it's a big-volume run the rocks consequence is removed. However, if you're on a grade 4+ run, I still don't think upside-down is a favourable position as you still lack oxygen and directional control.
Ross Lynch

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Pyro
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Post by Pyro »

steddyjames wrote:When you've got enough experience to 'boldly portage where no man has portaged before'
I agree wholeheartedly.

Knowing how to get down the river is only half of it. Knowing when you shouldn't be on it is the other.
-------
Pyro's Yard - Random Wafflings

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Chas C
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Post by Chas C »

Grumpy old man wrote:
Honest and open feedback from your peer's.
Mmm... they keep telling me I'm crap the wife tells me I'm going down hill and the kids tell me I'm a Grumpy old sod.

I don't like your theory Chas C, I'll stick with my own, I think I'm great..!

Grumpy
Well perhaps your peers are honest and true, otherwise choose better peers but its all down to your own perception. If your not honest to yourself then your obviously the best paddler around :-).

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David Fairweather
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Post by David Fairweather »

Paddle something you know well on your own. That will make you sit up and realistically evaluate your own paddling ability and how much you trust that ability.

Obviously this is a stupid idea that I wouldn't recommend to anyone...

Dr Robin
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Post by Dr Robin »

pondweed wrote:
kernel wrote:Rolling should be a last resort, IMHO.

Ross
Too much UK paddling - one thing it took me while to get to grips with when running big challenging rivers is that sometimes you will end up upsidedown. You just factor it into your calculations. Locals accept it.

This is of course an easier situation to accept when you're in a half mile wide river than a rocky ditch. In the UK you really want to be upright.

The same could be said about how precisely UK boaters want to run things and their refusal to go through stoppers. It's easy to spot the Brits from the Canadians on McCoy's on the Ottawa. All comes from cutting your teeth on shallow, narrow, rock-infested becks.
Too much playboating! It doesn't matter if you roll on the Ottawa because it's a playrun! If you roll half way down Itanda you might not hit your head but you will have 3 less seconds to make the ferry glide, which will make all the difference. Rolling IS a last resort.

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Peter A. Kelly
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Post by Peter A. Kelly »

Dave_C wrote:Surely all you can say is that you've paddled a grade 2/3/4/5 rapid. Not necessarily that you're a grade 2/3/4/5 paddler. All the bits of water are different and saying you can paddle grade x is a guaranteed way to make sure you stuff it up in front of your mates. I should know.
Never a truer word spoken and I should know with a nickname like 'Neptune'. Apparently it was given to me when I first started paddling because according to my fellow paddlers and onlookers I spent more time in the water than in my boat!!! In fact it has been remarked on, on more than one occasion, that it was not a proper river trip or of a sufficent challange or difficulty if I have not taken a swim that day, irrispective of whether anyone eles has taken a swim on my behalf.

This theory was clear demonstrated during our last day out at Tryweryn when I confidently remarked at the beginning of the day that my 'Mark Spits' days were over and that I had not taken a swim since Middle Force on 23rd December and everyone else had. (I am in there, you just have to look hard.)

http://sweetstrutter.com/displayimage.p ... at=0&pos=7

I subsiquently capsised and lost my paddle half way down the Grave Yard, went down the second half upside down, stubernly refusing to be parted form my boat and trying to hand roll before taking my customery swim when my boat pinned on a rock at the bottom. The boat went one way round the rock and I went the other way as we parted company.

Our valiant leader Captain Sensible was only too quick to point out my error in stating that my 'Mark Spits' days were over and that I had opened my big mouth too soon.
Last edited by Peter A. Kelly on Wed Apr 30, 2008 1:54 pm, edited 7 times in total.
Neptune

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naefearjustbeer
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Post by naefearjustbeer »

If you arrive home with your boat and paddle you have had a good day! Anything less is considered a poor day.

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Tony Aiuto
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Post by Tony Aiuto »

naefearjustbeer wrote:If you arrive home with your boat and paddle you have had a good day! Anything less is considered a poor day.
Agreed.

but it would be a bit of a bummer if you started the day with a carload full of mates and their kit;-)
Tony Aiuto

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Post by frazerp »

Perhaps I'm missing the point of this thread, but why would you want to ?

Whether or not you paddle a section is surely up to your judgement given the water, so it boils down to "yes or no". ...and wandering around loudly proclaiming you are a "grade 5 paddler" is likely to make you look quite odd pretty quickly. Or at least you would hope it would.

Frazer

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Dr Repper
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Post by Dr Repper »

Sorry, double post.
Last edited by Dr Repper on Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What's the worst that could happen?

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Dr Repper
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Post by Dr Repper »

pondweed wrote:
kernel wrote:
Tildmeister (Mr. T) wrote:if you paddle Grade 4+ and roll here and there, so what
Rocks, lack of oxygen and lack of directional control, that's what. If you're upside-down on a whitewater river you've probably fucked up. Rolling should be a last resort, IMHO.

Ross
Too much UK paddling - one thing it took me while to get to grips with when running big challenging rivers is that sometimes you will end up upsidedown. You just factor it into your calculations. Locals accept it.

This is of course an easier situation to accept when you're in a half mile wide river than a rocky ditch. In the UK you really want to be upright.

The same could be said about how precisely UK boaters want to run things and their refusal to go through stoppers. It's easy to spot the Brits from the Canadians on McCoy's on the Ottawa. All comes from cutting your teeth on shallow, narrow, rock-infested becks.
Agreed. You should have seen some of the looks we got getting out to inspect the line past Phil's the other year! By the second day we were as complacent as anyone else (just ask Pikey).

Seriously though, anyone that paddles a lot with lots of different people on lots of different rivers knows exactly how good, bad or indifferent they are; it's impossible not to. They also usually don't (or shouldn't) care beyond being good enough to do confidently and safely what they want to do.
What's the worst that could happen?

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adrian j pullin
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Post by adrian j pullin »

Development cycle: (compared with learning to walk.)

Unconsciously incompetent: you know so little that you do not realise how much there is to learn (babies with no concept of walking)

Consciously incompetent: You have now learned enough to realise how much you have to learn (babies trying to stand up, let go of the sofa and get across the room but know they can't)

Consciously competent: You have learned enough to know that you can do it (Look at me! I can walk)

Unconsciously competent: You are so good that you don't think about it.(let's go the pub).
Cheers

Adrian J Pullin
-------------------------------------------------------
"No! Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
Kayak lore: "He who capsizes must also roll".

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Peter Holgate
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pushing

Post by Peter Holgate »

You learn how good you are when you have pushed it too far.

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