S.C.U.D. vs Nomad vs Critical Mass

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TheKrikkitWars
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S.C.U.D. vs Nomad vs Critical Mass

Post by TheKrikkitWars » Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:49 pm

On British rivers which would you choose and why?

I'm looking at them, and whilst I really like the nomad which I've paddled a fair bit, I cant help feeling:

1) That perhaps the critical mass would give me all the things I like from the nomad, only slightly more so.

2) that the S.C.U.D. would be much more fun than the other two, without compromising too much, and despite it's reputation for being hole-bait, probably isn't a bad choice for most of what I'm likely to paddle in the U.K.

Ladies and Gentlemen, Your opinions please?
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Re: S.C.U.D. vs Nomad vs Critical Mass

Post by james fleming » Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:27 pm

TheKrikkitWars wrote:... and despite it's reputation for being hole-bait,
In one. A very hole bait boat. However, I did not paddle it. Of of my mates did, Chaz. If there was a hole, stopper or small wave he got a doing in it. Wouldn't touch one with yours!

Nomad 8.5. Great boat, I have mentioned it of late.

DR CM, I'll let you know in a few weeks when I get a shot of one. By all accounts and reviews, the best creek boat by far!

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Post by Fatboy » Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:29 pm

After being derided something chronic for asking about a SCUD on this forum, I bought one. I love it. As a boat for English rivers, beck bashing and general fun it's great. A boat for days when you don't need a creek boat, but know a playboat isn't the best idea (Upper Swale, etc.).

I find it a solid (and heavy) boat. Well put together. My only gripe is the lack of full plate footrest, and the fact that my legs are a little bit big to get the thigh braces to be super comfortable. I'm willing to accept that this is my oversized legs, rather than a design flaw of the boat.

Handling-wise, it's great. Slow flat out, as you would expect, but very quick to turn and accelerate. The rails mean you can carve it anout like a playboat(ish). The very high volume has led to some interesting experiences, when I've got falls wrong a couple of times, I've been so high up in the slot, due to the volume, I've just auto-ferried out. An unusual experience, but I'm not complaining. The sort length and high rocker make it a belter to boof.

Drawbacks... It's heavy. No getting round it. The shape of the nose seems to kick you up in the water on landing, leading to a heavy flat landing on one occasion, and a rapid underwater back loop on another (but that time I was way off line on a 6m drop. Probably not the boat's fault entirely).

All in all, a great boat. Doesn't paddle quite like anything else I've tried; runs drops well, is great fun, and has been the only boat I've wanted to take out since I got it.

Oh, and it loops MASSIVE!

Edit: Much as I hate to disagree with James (he looks like a big scary man in his videos!) I don't find it that sticky in holes. Although now I'm guaranteed a working for saying that, aren't I?
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Post by Jones Chris » Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:44 pm

Fatboy wrote:
Edit: Much as I hate to disagree with James (he looks like a big scary man in his videos!) I don't find it that sticky in holes. Although now I'm guaranteed a working for saying that, aren't I?
Not from me! I actually find that if I paddle just a little differently than I normally would that it is actually fairly difficult to get the Scud to stick in a hole. It seams to hop up onto the white really easily a little like paddling a surf boat out through broken waves.

I love mine - but then I predominantly squirt so I am wierd!

Chris

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Post by Fatboy » Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:47 pm

Me too! Perhaps we're not the best people to ask?
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Re: S.C.U.D. vs Nomad vs Critical Mass

Post by banzer » Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:51 pm

TheKrikkitWars wrote: ... most of what I'm likely to paddle in the U.K.
Herein lies the key. The Nomad is a well established full-on creekboat, which on global terms means something steep and with a fair few cumecs such as those in California and Norway. The CM is perhaps the next generation of this , and is already hugely popular in Norway on these sort of runs. It may be 'the best creekboat in the world'.

But we don't have a lot of those kinds of runs in the UK. Tiny Lake District becks might have half a cumec in them, they're not for everyone, but those that like them might as well take something short and fun. The SCUD isn't a million miles off the Topo, in as much as it's a short creekboat that works well on little stuff. (The Sniper is perhaps in this category).

SCUDs aren't for everyone, but if you bought one and got used to it, you'd be fine. You'd work out which runs to use it on and which not to use it on. I've been in one and it can be a bit of a giggle, go for it (but don't expect much sympathy when / if you get stuck in a hole!).
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Post by james fleming » Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:58 pm

Like I said, I haven't paddled one(scud). However, it does depend on how you drive it.

Fatboy, I love everyone and hate no one (well, one or two). :-)

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Post by Fatboy » Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:03 pm

In that case, I'll let you have a go next time I make it up to Scotland.

I've got to agree with what Banzer said. Until a change of circumstances made the decision irrelevant, I was in two minds about taking the SCUD or my real creek boat to Italy this summer. I would most likely have taken something else over the SCUD.

PS: I really can't understand why Lakeland becks aren't to everyone's taste. ;-)
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Post by feelingjustfine » Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:04 pm

For the CM-even though it is my favourite creeker ever made and I do beleive it to be the best on the market-unless you are looking at running the shit, it is a kind of over kill boat. When running things like class3-4 I find I'll normally take my playboat instead of the CM becuase I find myself bored...when it comes to balls to the wall puchy as hell class 5 creeking though the CM comes shining through and it is there where I wouldn't have any other boat. Basically look at your paddling and where you want to take it and the rivers you normally paddle on, for me, I run west coast spate rivers like the Nevis and Etive and try to always push the level I do them at so thats why I have the CM, plus I'm going to be spending alot of time on Norway so for obvious reasons it is the right boat for me.

If you live in England and paddle class 4 rivers for the most part and have lower water levels you probably won't learn so much from a boat like the CM/Nomad 8.5 and it might just turn you lazy and when it comes to running the gnar where rivers are bigger and more powerfull you might shit a brick as such... Not saying everyone in England paddles pissy streams and should paddle a Dagger Juice....just that you should look for the boat to get the most out of what you paddle and where you paddle.

I now have a Fluid Solo[L] becuase for some of the trips I do the CM is a little too much and I fancy a rock bashing boof machine that is a little lighter(this was than my old CM[now dead], my new one will have different outfitting and be much lighter:-).) so is better for walk in's but can run the shit better than most creek boats on the modern market can, to me it is the only boat which truly compares to the CM.

Stay clear of the Scud dude! Little boats suck and you'll save yourself having to get a big boat in a few months after you realise small boats SUCK!!! I'll be getting my new CM through within the next two weeks or so and you're welcome to come up and have a blast down the Nevis in it if you like....maybe if you just want to run the steeps the Nomad would be better for you, but if you want something that can track in big volume too, ferry glide effortlesly, boof easier and have lots of things to get you out of stuffing up rapids, the CM is undoutabley better.

Whatever you do, GO BIG, little boats suck and were a silly fashon thank god we are growing out of...word has obviously taken a little longer to reach NZ about this the Scud proves. As I mentioned earlier, the Solo[L] is an absolutley fantastic boat and will do anything big and hard but is super fun to paddle at the same time(good boat if you got a shitty boof..... ahem)....

You're welcome to try our's before you buy.

Chris:-)
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Post by Fatboy » Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:08 pm

Ah, yes; there it is...
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Post by Fatboy » Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:10 pm

Double Post. Sorry.
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Post by Jones Chris » Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:23 pm

feelingjustfine wrote: Little boats suck and you'll save yourself having to get a big boat in a few months after you realise small boats SUCK!!!
Hmm try telling that to the half dozen squirt boaters giggling their heads off at the magic roundabout tonight. Pretty good on big water too - my run down the Findhorn in huge flood about 13 years bag is probably my most memorable paddling experiance!
feelingjustfine wrote:Whatever you do, GO BIG, little boats suck and were a silly fashon thank god we are growing out of...word has obviously taken a little longer to reach NZ about this the Scud proves.

Chris:-)
Obviously not made it to Runcorn either - Ammo anyone?

Pick what suits - demo demo demo

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Post by feelingjustfine » Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:34 am

Jones Chris wrote:
feelingjustfine wrote: Little boats suck and you'll save yourself having to get a big boat in a few months after you realise small boats SUCK!!!
Hmm try telling that to the half dozen squirt boaters giggling their heads off at the magic roundabout tonight. Pretty good on big water too - my run down the Findhorn in huge flood about 13 years bag is probably my most memorable paddling experiance!
Squirting is completley different to creeking! That Findhorn trip, mut have been interesing!!!
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Post by banzer » Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:17 am

feelingjustfine wrote: little boats suck and were a silly fashon thank god we are growing out of...word has obviously taken a little longer to reach NZ about this the Scud proves.
The SCUD was designed for 1) Tight steep Kiwi creeking such as the Anatoki, NOT West Coast runs (where you will see more Jefes, Nomads, Habitats etc), and 2) Well-known grade 4 / 4+ runs such as Kaituna, Wairoa and Rangitikei where people know all the lines and want to throw massive loops / get something a bit different out of it. Having said which, they do get paddled on the West Coast, with some good success, check this: http://www.bliss-stick.com/default.aspx?pageid=118

On UK runs- many of which are more akin to the Anatoki than they are the West Coast- short boats have some advantages. Topos are small, and they did the likes of Andy Jackson and co. very well.
Last edited by banzer on Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by feelingjustfine » Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:22 am

How about the Arahura...Perth....Kaituna play-hole....how about Arns, where is he in all this? Would the Scud be any good if you...say....needed to kill a beast whilst on route and stuff it in the back of your boat.... this is what I put to you Mr Banzer(sir)?.
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Post by Fatboy » Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:27 am

As long as it was a reasonably small beast. Or shaped like a Peli case.
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Post by Grumpy old man » Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:53 am

Fatboy wrote:As long as it was a reasonably small beast. Or shaped like a Peli case.
A Haggis?
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Post by ross25 » Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:15 am

I got a SCUD just over a year ago. It is a very fun boat which every one who has paddled mine agrees. But they will not give up there larger boats such as the nomad and the burn it just depends what you want.

The SCUD is a short boat that does lack the speed of opthers which can lead to difficulties. I would go and demo all three if you can get your hands on them. The only way to chose is to try them and see what comes out on top. Your experince might be different to others.

I took my SCUD out to Canada and France last year and never became hole bate.

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Post by james fleming » Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:28 am

A bit tongue in cheek here.

The proof, at point.44 and 2.39 on the video. Pure dead hole bait, man.

Even better this one. Pure dead flat water, breaking an eddy line bait, at point .32 and 1.16.

'nough said?

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Post by ChrisMac » Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:44 am

james fleming wrote:A bit tongue in cheek here.

The proof, at point.44 and 2.39 on the video. Pure dead hole bait, man.

Even better this one. Pure dead flat water, breaking an eddy line bait, at point .32 and 1.16.

'nough said?
Nice videos but I dont see how they demonstrate your point. In the 1st video the chap drops in having rolled, sideways with no speed and still gets spat out of the hole. In the second the chap runs the fall upside down and the boat just goes through the hole with no more difficulty than those that went through it the correct way up!!!!

Personally I think the SCUD and Ammo demonstrate that they do work but there is a change in approach / technique required. I would imagine similar debates would have raged on the introduction of the spud if the internet had existed at the time



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Post by james fleming » Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:52 am

Dude, I had no point to make but a funny ha ha thing. That's all.

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Post by Joe L » Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:06 pm

There all pretty good boats. However I dont know if I would want to do tight technical creeking in the Scud or Ammo because neither has a full plate footrest, and thats the sort of place you can piton pretty hard. Longer faster boats are more fun anyhow.

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Post by feelingjustfine » Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:40 pm

Cricket war, what do you want your boat to serve as? Do you want a boat for the UK alone?, do you want one which will help you progress and you want to really push your boating in? What grade rivers do you paddle and where? What boats have you paddled before and what did you like/dislike about them and why? What is your prefered style of boating, big chunky assed rivers or do you like steep shallow stuff....this is why I paddle a CM and Banzer still will paddle the Jefe, one is a rock bash bunny and the other likes a load of water under the hull...?Just reading through the thread everyone[me included] is spouting off about what works for them but doesn't know what you want a kayak for and where you intend to take it and what you want to do with it.
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Post by Grumpy old man » Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:45 pm

Monkeytoucher wrote:There all pretty good boats. However I dont know if I would want to do tight technical creeking in the Scud or Ammo because neither has a full plate footrest, and thats the sort of place you can piton pretty hard. Longer faster boats are more fun anyhow.
My Ammo has a full plate footrest..!
As I've not done any creeking for years I can't really comment on the performance but I find it more comfy than the Scud. The Scuds thigh braces are too low for me.

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Post by MattBibbings » Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:47 pm

In terms of creeking in a Short boat, I have recently started paddling a medium Ammo and have taken on things like the Etive and its tribs and a few crunchy, steep limestone becks around Yorkshire since I've owned it and I love it. I came to this boat after 5 years in a Wavesport Y and really wanted something a bit more lively and chuckable (if thats a word).

For the sort if stuff I am normally likely to paddle (steep, spate runs around the North of England) it's a great boat.

The biggest volume stuff I have paddled was out in Russia a few years back (Katun, Argut and Chuya) and I know that whilst I would cope in my Ammo there, I would much rather have something like a Nomad or Jefe on that sort of water. But I may only paddle that sort of water rarely. And I don't live on the West coast of Scotland. If I did, I wouldn't own an Ammo. Or a Scud!

Oh yes, and my Ammo has a full plate foot rest too!

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Post by TheKrikkitWars » Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:29 pm

feelingjustfine wrote:Cricket war, what do you want your boat to serve as? Do you want a boat for the UK alone?, do you want one which will help you progress and you want to really push your boating in? What grade rivers do you paddle and where? What boats have you paddled before and what did you like/dislike about them and why? What is your prefered style of boating, big chunky assed rivers or do you like steep shallow stuff....this is why I paddle a CM and Banzer still will paddle the Jefe, one is a rock bash bunny and the other likes a load of water under the hull...?Just reading through the thread everyone[me included] is spouting off about what works for them but doesn't know what you want a kayak for and where you intend to take it and what you want to do with it.
Long post warning!

I paddle (and lead) medium volume 4/4+ rivers at almost all water levels (spate boating included*), I'm ocassionally doing 4/5 rocky ditches, and would like to do the big scots runs, but I won't be doing that that often. I prefer using nicely polished technique, but generally paddle very aggressively as well. I paddled the nomad liked it, but felt unentertained; Paddled the topo, loved it but felt a need for rails and control; and have been paddling a Crazy 88 as my workaday boat, and using a SuperStar as a creek boat. It is probably going to be dragged out to the alps, Sweden (and by extension Norway), and India as and when I can afford it. The other thing is it would be competing with my playboats and my open boat. I just want a boat that won't cane my arse when I make little mistakes, and let me push my boundaries, without getting too comfortable and sloppy in it.

Re-reading what I've written, It looks like SCUD next, then Either a Nomad or a Critical Mass† once I'm getting on for paddling even harder stuff, as I'm competent (and usually confident) on grade 4, but I know my paddling isn't quite ready‡ to "do the bump" up to proper grade 4+/5 runs as opposed to small higher grade rapids here and there.



*Yes It's dangerous, irresponsable, might be beyond me and makes baby Jesus cry. It's still good fun though, so Pretty Please no lecturing.

†If you'd continue to wax lyrical about the qualities of your chosen boat, and the difference that half a foot makes, I'd be most appreciative.

‡It won't be for a while either, there are more pressing and rewarding things for me to work on than pushing on to paddle the gnar, and this is probably better too.
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Post by feelingjustfine » Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:52 pm

Just come up and paddle the CM, that is better than reading a forum for sure....I work in a hostel so you needent worry about places to stay either.


spate boating...." *Yes It's dangerous, irresponsable, might be beyond me and makes baby Jesus cry. It's still good fun though, so Pretty Please no lecturing."

Eeerr...OK, its fun and way better than rock bashing for sure!

Just go and try boats dude, if you find the Nomad boring you might find the CM even more so becuase it stays even drier but you have the advantage of a nice hard rail at the front and back to make eddy turns and general manouvering alot snappier and more slalom like...

Just remember, moriston goes every tuesday through the summer and we got a shed full of kayaks....all for trial for a beer a boat;-)
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Post by TheKrikkitWars » Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:59 pm

feelingjustfine wrote:Just come up and paddle the CM, that is better than reading a forum for sure....I work in a hostel so you needent worry about places to stay either.


spate boating...." *Yes It's dangerous, irresponsable, might be beyond me and makes baby Jesus cry. It's still good fun though, so Pretty Please no lecturing."

Eeerr...OK, its fun and way better than rock bashing for sure!

Just go and try boats dude, if you find the Nomad boring you might find the CM even more so becuase it stays even drier but you have the advantage of a nice hard rail at the front and back to make eddy turns and general manouvering alot snappier and more slalom like...

Just remember, moriston goes every tuesday through the summer and we got a shed full of kayaks....all for trial for a beer a boat;-)
Hmm, How many different trials for a party seven?
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Post by Jack Butcher » Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:45 pm

Paddled a Scud for a year, and liked it a lot. But have now upgraded to a Jefe as my creekboat. I see the Scud as a boat to bridge the gap between your full on creeker, and your playboat. If you view it as a third boat it starts to make more sense. But I don't think it should be viewed as a replacement for your full on creekboat. A good paddler could have a lot of fun in a Scud, in places where you wouldn't want to be in a playboat, but don't need the performance of a full on creeker. I only sold mine to help finance my new playboat, otherwise I would definately have kept it. I often find myself struggling to surf my Jefe, on water I wouldn't want to paddle in my playboat, thinking I wish I still had my Scud. I will be buying another Scud when I can afford it, because once you understand what the Scud is about, you will want that option on the roof of your car.

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Post by SwamP » Fri Mar 28, 2008 4:27 pm

I've read this post with great hope as I'm looking for something bigger...I've just returned to kayaking and havent done anything hard in at least 5 years and even back then I paddled everything and I mean everything in a nice shoulder popping playboat.

Now returning I'm evidently not as good as I had hoped thus see myself getting hurt in a smaller boat and needing to fatten my boat up slightly...

As some have said I will not be considering the CM as I plan to do most of my paddling in this country. The Scud, I feel, would just present me with 'similar' issues to a playboat. And the Nomad just looks a little too much like a blunt tool which may bore me rivers with more diverse characteristics as did the CFS when not closer to verticle than horizontal.

Probably due to the paddler being very competant I have to say that IMO the best boat I've seen yet for 4+/5- (give or take some stupid steep stuff) is the Ammo!

if someone has a bad thing to say about it then please do let me know as I'm about to purchase one.

Also it's interesting that people are comparing Scud to a Nomad...surely the mystic is more similar?

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