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Hanging Draw

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 2:58 pm
by TheKrikkitWars
Can someone tell me what all the fuss about hanging draw is and why it has persisted in the 3 star syllabus even though its only effective for long(er) boats and/or on moving water.

Also any tips on how to prevent myself turning as i attempt this (I paddle a Jackson superstar) before my 3 star this weekend, I can (usually) perform hanging draw in a 14ft open Canadian but not In my regular boat.

Any help greatly appreciated.

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 2:58 pm
by Tom_Laws
Feet, think about your feet.

Hanging draw is a good stroke.

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 3:06 pm
by TheKrikkitWars
Could you elucidate on that, especially as I can't always feel my feet.

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 3:07 pm
by EmmaK
Whilst I am definitely no expert on hanging draw (so won't try and tell you technique) I actually asked what the point of hanging draw was myself a few weeks ago.

Watch a few kayaking videos, just random ones, and you will see people using it all the time when they're creeking/river-running (unless they're beginners!). I think it's a useful stroke for moving water, as you said, and seeing as 3 star is basically for people who are looking to be doing some moving water, it seems worthwhile for it to be on there.

As for perfecting the technique... well I could do with tips as well!

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 3:09 pm
by Agent Nomad
You need to find the position that it works but as boat speed slows you need to move the position of your paddle

As you spin out you then loose the nessesary boat speed, to aid the eairly learning stage, use a through line tied to you bow of your boat and get your helper to hold the other end and paddle away from the helper at the extend of the through line get the helper to pull you this then keeps boat speed and adjust the paddle position to suit.

Then move onto doinging by yourself

It work great on moving water and doesn't spin you out anything like on still water

Paul.

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 3:09 pm
by Tom_Laws
TheKrikkitWars wrote:Could you elucidate on that, especially as I can't always feel my feet.
Try pushing with one of them, and see what happens. Then try the other one!

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 3:13 pm
by TheKrikkitWars
I know it's useful on moving water, but it should surely be on the 4 star syllabus as 3 star is flat water; Plus there are very few people who would run a creek or bigger river in a boat with a loose hull (as it makes it that much easier to blow your line) thus the boat will just move sideways, not turn at the same time.

Also thanks for the learning tips, I shall, all being well test them tomorrow night.

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 3:30 pm
by Lincolnpaddle
I can do a hanging draw fine in my s6, granted I dont really need it that much as I'm not that competant a paddler.

When teaching hanging draw for my level 2 training however I found that if you keep your elbow on the edge of the cockpit level with your hip whist doing the stroke helps keeps ur hand steady and stops from turning. If thats any help.

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 3:31 pm
by StoneWeasel
I always thought that as a taught stroke on the flat the hanging draw was rubbish and on moving water seems to be picked up / worked out intuitively by people that have never even heard of it. I really do not see a place for it still in the 3*

ah well....



Denzil

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 3:41 pm
by Ricks-Freestyle-Mind
I find good edging and carving technique helps the hanging draw. Try carving in large, and small circles in your boat.

Now I'm going to explain something that is beyond my abilities of description, but I think someone will get the jist and put it into far fewer, clearer words.

Now the best way to practice the hanging draw, and get a feel for the paddle control needed, is to get a bit of momentum, put the boat on edge (like carving) and then use a C-stroke to carry on the turn.

I'm hoping someone with the coaching badges will be able to help me out here. It's basicly a type of carving, however I can't remember the exact name. Bugger! Anyone catch on to what I'm trying to say?

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 3:47 pm
by pjproctor
I was always taught that if you get up some momentum then have the blade so its parallel to the boat, let the boat settle slightly then open your wrist out its alot easier to learn as your not doing everything at once.

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 3:53 pm
by Adrian Cooper
I think I get what you are trying to say Rick but this sounds like a technique for ‘tilting to assist a turn’. The C-stroke is a good one for this but I’m not sure how it relates to a hanging draw.

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 3:58 pm
by Adrian Cooper
TheKrikkitWars wrote:I know it's useful on moving water, but it should surely be on the 4 star syllabus as 3 star is flat water
The idea behind the 3* is that it introduces those strokes which you will need once you progress onto moving water. In fact it basically gives you the full repertoire of strokes available. When you get onto 4* you are using those strokes to perform manoeuvres. Notice that the 4* has very few (if any) new strokes.

Let's take for example:

Bow rudder - not needed on flat water, excellent tool on moving
High support - by this level, you shouldn't be needing this on the flat
Draw stroke on the move - speaks for itself
Tilting to assist a turn - essential for eddy turns

Re: Hanging Draw

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:03 pm
by Steve B
TheKrikkitWars wrote:Can someone tell me what all the fuss about hanging draw is and why it has persisted in the 3 star syllabus even though its only effective for long(er) boats and/or on moving water.
As others have said, it's a very useful stroke in a short boat. But as for why it's in 3 star...

Yes, 3 star is tested on flat water but it includes an introduction to what might be termed moving water strokes. Also, there is only one generic syllabus for inland kayaks - long and short boats alike. As a syllabus and a test it really wasn't very well conceived in my view - the BCU should have grasped the nettle back in the mid-90s when the syllabus was last revised, and introduced an element of simple moving water at 3 star level. They didn't, but this time around common sense has prevailed. The new 3 star comes in five versions, for white water, flat water, open canoe, surf and sea kayak. At last we will be able to teach and learn these skills in an appropriate environment.

Now if only they can sort out the stupid requirement to include both kayak and canoe skills in two star, we'll have a result.

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:08 pm
by Yaker Dan
Hi

Its a great stroke to develop blade awareness and control also placement. And works fine in a playboat you just have less room for error as in a fine sweet spot margin compared to a longer boat.

few tips..
some paddlers have the problem of getting the paddle in the correct position to start with. try a stern rudder then slice the blade to a vertical postion at the sweet spot( draw stroke spot - hips). or bring back a forward stroke and slice it into the sweet spot.

- make sure your blade angle is nuetral until you think its in the sweet spot then open your wrist to feel the movement.

- practice, practice, practice

- some paddlers will make the mistake of leaning out to the side to plant at the sweet spot this will raise an edge and send you kayak of in a spin before you start..seperate upper and lower body movements.

- dont compensate with your knees your only kidding yourself.

- sweet spot warm up with static draw and draw on the move even with eyes closed get the feel. that blade is your hand.

one more thing....

Practice!

have fun
Dan.
www.riverstrokes.co.uk

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:12 pm
by Rick Foster
I use it all the time, in fact on easyer river it is often one of the few stroke i use while going down rapids, however i do agree it would be more apporpiate in the 4* silabus.

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:29 pm
by dccp
Try the hanging draw whilst reversing!

Its much easier than you think.

Really!

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:46 pm
by RichA
If I'm paddling a river that's got a lot of rocks to dodge around, or I need to make constant line adjustments (think most French Alps rivers) then there are very few strokes I actually use.
The hanging draw is by far my most widely used stroke, and then it can slice into a bow or stern rudder, or a forward/boof stroke if needed. It's a great linking stroke, and provides directional control and stability all at once! Did you know that a vertical paddle can be used as a support stroke as well?

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:32 pm
by jimkennedy
Hanging draw is a useful, though infrequently needed, stroke. It's not difficult and can help you get out of tight spots, say, if you are pushed up against a wall.

If your hanging draw is turning the front of your boat toward the paddle, move your hand position further back.

If your hanging draw is turning the back of your boat towards the paddle, move your hand position further forward.

Jim.

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:34 pm
by Tom_Laws
I'm struggling with my low brace turns, anyone got any tips?

Cheers

Tom

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:48 pm
by Liam
Methinks thou art perchance extracting the urine, Mr Laws!

Low brace problems should always be sorted by the correct orthodontal procedures, everyone should know that failure to do so could result in a variety of turns brought on by your teeth growing up through your skull

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:59 pm
by lou
Here's something you can try with a mate to help you find the correct paddle position and blade angle.

Put your stern against the bank and put the paddle in the 'hanging draw' position. Doesn't matter if it's wrong. Then, get your mate to push your boat out in a straight line. If your paddle and blade were correct, then you'll do a hanging draw. If your paddle position or blade angle is wrong then you'll spin or stall.
Keep altering your paddle and blade until you get a hanging draw when your mate pushes your boat away from the bank. If you tie a line onto your boat your mate can just pull you back in after each go.
Once you know where your paddle and blade should be, you can practice getting them there. Then try it on the move.

The majority pf people I coach find this a useful way to learn.

Hope this helps and good luck

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:00 pm
by feelingjustfine
Ask Pierre ze fighter Pilot who ocasionally pops his head up on here about the hanging draw, or better still boat with him for a few hours and you'll be running boulder blast on a single stroke!

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:13 pm
by Gogz
A little trick I was shown last year is to pull a gentle sweep stroke on the same side as you plan to perform the hanging draw. This has the effect of slightly turning the bow in the opposite direction that the hanging draw may pull you. The bow should turn and no more. You then slice the paddle forward into the hanging draw position. As said previously within this thread, you need to find the correct paddle position for both you and your boat.

The rest is practice, practice, practice.

It worked well with my LL CR.

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:56 pm
by TheKrikkitWars
Just to clarify, I understand how to use hanging draw (in a canoe), I just cant do it in a playboat...
yet; although visualizing some of the techniques people are describing there is a fair chance i may crack it when I next go paddling (tomorrow luckily).

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:59 pm
by RichA
Try floating with the current down some fast moving water, and do a sculling draw to the side. Then start to scull less and less, and move your paddle towards your feet more. Play about with this and see if you can generate the same effect as a sculling draw, but without the sculling part.

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:00 pm
by Jay Oram
I learnt by placing the paddle vertically next to my hip, after paddling up to a good speed, and just slicing the blade through the water.

If you can go through the water in a straight line, then gradually open up the blade (tilt your wrist backwards) and when you feel the force on the paddle hold it still and see what happens, then think about your feet in the boat.

And just practice, in a playboat i feel that keeping the boat flat not edging and you do need a bit more speed than you think, if you can get someone to tow you or pull you with a throwline.

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:46 pm
by splitwheeler
watch ejs stroke devlopment dvd this will help loads

EJ points out that we no loner use the bow rudder in short boats we have mearly adapted it into a bow draw.

My tip
keep looking and your shoulder facing forwards this should keep your hull flat once you move your shoulders or head you atomaticaly initiate your edge which will turn you

good luck with your assesment

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:51 pm
by Tom_Laws
If its as good as his lean back when bracing DVD its money well spent....

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 1:10 pm
by David McCraw
I use the bow rudder... probably comes from having an 'old school' education though!

Surely the draw stroke is ideal when you want to shift over without messing up your angle (i.e. for a boof), or when you want to skim across the backwash of a hole to move across the river (not that you couldn't use any number of different approaches for that).

As far as turning when you draw - the force is different depending where you place the blade. Should you draw at the stern, you'll pull that part of the boat towards the blade (so the nose turns away), and vice versa. When you find the sweet spot for your boat, weight and trim, it oughtn't to turn.

I always felt teaching people to rely on a counteracting sweep stroke defeats the entire point of being able to quickly move sideways...