Playboats as a coaching boat?

Jay Oram · Post by **Jay Oram** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 4:59 pm

I'm going for my Level 2 Assessment and i can fit everything needed for the assessment in my boat comfortably and their is 6.5kg of buoyancy in the front and back of my boat. I have been coaching in the boat since my training and have paddled it for two years emptying/towing/rescuing people on whitewater and on the flat.

Will an asessor fail me if I use it just because it is a playboat, obviously if i can't do something he wants in it i tottally understand but i have had no problems in all my experiences paddling.

edit: Any comments / views?

missile · Post by **missile** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:09 pm

Im not a coach but what I have heard people saying is that it will depend on the assessor, even if you can do everything to an amazing standered in a play boat, if they are a playboating hater then they might have a problem with it. Best bet is to talk to the person assessing you.

Dave @ TRC · Post by **Dave @ TRC** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:13 pm

Sorry But a play boat is not a practical teaching boat I think that so far you may have been lucky to get away teaching in it .

As for will an assessor pass you they may as long as you pass all the tasks given. But I would expect at the very least they should / would have quiet a word some time through the course about your choice of boat

Above are only my opinions . I'm sure one of the instructors browsing this forum will know the line on this .

Dave.

sax · Post by **sax** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:20 pm

I did my l2 training weekend in a playboat and got told off by my assessor. So I borrowed a mates boat to do my assessment in - much simpler - no arguments. x

Tom_Laws · Post by **Tom_Laws** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:36 pm

If you can perform all the stuff for level two in it, you will be fine. Be prepared for the assesor to give you a hard time, testing the limits of what you can do however!(think X rescuing a fat bastard, etc)

Good luck!

Tom

Paul Smith · Post by **Paul Smith** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:45 pm

Tom_Laws wrote:If you can perform all the stuff for level two in it, you will be fine. Be prepared for the assesor to give you a hard time, testing the limits of what you can do however!(think X rescuing a fat bastard)

As Tom has said above that if you can do everything fine, than that would be ok. But if you kept having to get out of your boat every 5 minutes to stretch your legs or can't get in your boat wearing appropriate footware, then expect problems.

Likewise I would expect you to be able to rescue an Open boat in your kayak, because as a Level 2 kayak coach your are able to coach both open boats and kayaks. And I'm not sure how easy that would be in a little playboat (the rescuing, not the coaching)

Jay Oram · Post by **Jay Oram** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:56 pm

okay, but what is the gripe with playboats then if they work?

I have rescued an open boat and put two large paddlers back in it. and also rescued disabled people and put them back in a Kiwi 2 after capsizing.

See the problem is after paddling this boat for two years, the only boat before i have ever paddled is a rotobat. Which isn't the best outfitted in respect to modern kayaking. It is still in the shed though - would you suggest that?

But what is the gripe with playboats?

Paul Smith · Post by **Paul Smith** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:07 pm

High Brace wrote:okay, but what is the gripe with playboats then if they work?

Nothing, if they work!

meatballs · Post by **meatballs** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:47 pm

The gripe with playboats is that the assessor will think you will have problems in certain scenarios due to the size etc. In most cases its easier in a bigger boat.

How do you cope with stern carries? :) Although I guess they dont come up on the L2?

lou · Post by **lou** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 7:47 pm

I did my L2 in a Perception Blaze, and another candidate did it in an S6. We both passed, but were warned by the assessor that the boats were not ideal coaching boats, and that we would not be able to progress up the coaching ladder in them.

I had no probs with the skills, but could only just get enough kit in. Long club trips in the lakes or on a canal were definately not the comfiest.

I'd advise you to perhaps borrow a mates boat for your assessment then there's no probs. In the future, if you're just doing short coaching sessions then you'll probably be fine, but you might feel the need for a 'coaching boat' if you do some full day trips etc.

I now have a Burn for coaching and river running, and I'm going to get a cheap playboat when I can afford it, but I'll always use the Burn for coaching. Comfier, loads of room for kit, easy to rescue. However, I see no probs with a L2 coaching in a playboat so long as it doesn't inhibit them in any way. I know some excellent young coaches who coach in playboats.

Jay Oram · Post by **Jay Oram** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 8:34 pm

How do you cope with stern carries? :) Although I guess they dont come up on the L2?

I can carry everyone on the back but i can see some drawbacks -

It is slow - but i'm always close and in the best position to rescue anyone anyway

Long trips gear might not all fit in - But as always i will carry all the important gear and another experienced paddler could carry the spare clothes or give the bivi bag to another paddler

rescuing larger paddlers - would be easier in a bigger boat with more volume.

Wilf · Post by **Wilf** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 9:13 pm

I don't care what boat you turn up in. I would want to assess your ability to coach. As long as you get the basics right, eg;

Talk to action ratio
SMART goal setting
Built in progression
Appropriate and well timed feedback
Evidence of being able to coach to a variety of clients
3 Star performance on flat water (and you would be suprised how many cartwheelin' loopin' hole riders can't do a hanging draw stroke, or even know what one is).

Make sure rescues are slick and safe, including any transportation of casualties/incapable paddlers.

And ensure your general knoledge of canoesport is good

.... then you should be fine.

:-)

Best wishes

Wilf

Jay Oram · Post by **Jay Oram** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 9:51 pm

Thats what i was expecting Wilf, and i do know what a hanging draw is.

the people taking my assessment are a racing club though, just happen to have a coach that is of the right grade to take people for their L2. They are also a bit old fashioned so iwill find a different boat and just ask them the question of whether they think it is suitable after.

Thanks for all the comments, it all helps and broadens my perspective.

Dominic · Post by **Dominic** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:28 pm

Is it not more important to show that you have given the issue consideration, chosen a boat that you feel is appropriate and have a reasonable justification for your choice?

Thats what I did on my L2 assessment and L3 training.

lou · Post by **lou** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:41 pm

Wilf hit the nail on the head here:

I don't care what boat you turn up in. I would want to assess your ability to coach. As long as you get the basics right

It would be reasonable for an assessor to advise you on boat choice, but not judge you on it.

Good luck on the assessment by the way.

Lou

h2ocoaching.co.uk · Post by **h2ocoaching.co.uk** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 8:27 am

Dominic wrote:Is it not more important to show that you have given the issue consideration, chosen a boat that you feel is appropriate and have a reasonable justification for your choice?

Thats what I did on my L2 assessment and L3 training.

Put perfectly by Dominic. Its all about justifying why your using a playboat- and I dont just mean by saying 'its the only boat I have'.

As to earlier comments 'stating' its not a practical coaching boat, well on flat water I can out manouver / change direction much faster than a long boat, and also reckon I can rescue using a playboat much faster, and with less strain on my body than a lot of people using a big boat.

Did you read last months C&K magazine on playboat rescues?

RobMoffatt · Post by **RobMoffatt** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:08 am

Another point to mention if it crops up with your examiner, is that a lot of younger paddlers (lets face it, 70% of people who you coach will fall into the <25 category) will be paddling a playboat. Having seen someone doing a huge air loop they will want to eventually be able to do that too. So by coaching from a playboat, you are demonstrating the skills in a boat similar to many of your trainees.

Tom_Laws · Post by **Tom_Laws** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 10:15 am

RobMoffatt wrote:Another point to mention if it crops up with your examiner, is that a lot of younger paddlers (lets face it, 70% of people who you coach will fall into the <25 category) will be paddling a playboat. Having seen someone doing a huge air loop they will want to eventually be able to do that too. So by coaching from a playboat, you are demonstrating the skills in a boat similar to many of your trainees.

Very good point. I have run a fair few sessions from Falchions, just because all the kids are in one as well and it puts everyone on a level playing field. :)

Tom

chriscw · Post by **chriscw** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 10:25 am

I did not have my playboat when I did my L2 training, if I had I probably would have used it because it is so much more comfortable that my Overflow and MUCH easier to do a hanging draw! I probably would have put up with the Overflow for the assessment though.

THERE IS NO PROBLEM WITH ASKING THE ASSESSOR what he or she would like to see you paddle.

However what I really wanted to add which has been touched on is that it is a good idea to try and coach from a boat similar to the ones your students are using. If your students are all in master 2s and you are in an S6 they may well feel that they cannot do the things you are doing because their equipment is different. Where possible I quite like doing early sessions in shorter boats because I think people learn better. A shorter boat is harder to keep straight but so much easier to put right! Personally I find rescues with a short boat quite easy as long as you use a suitable method.

As people progress from 'park n paddle' introductory sessions to doing 2* star journeys I would ideally introduce them to longer boats, and of course canoes. I like to give students, even those with their own boats the chance to try a few different boats during training and exposed them to different paddling disciplines.

Shifty · Post by **Shifty** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 10:31 am

When I did my level 2 many moons ago, I was told off for borrowing a boat to paddle in for my assesment rather than using my normal boat. Which was a Riot Tekno. I paddle all summer long in a playboat coaching, anyone who cannot do the rescues in a playboat most probably needs to improve their rescues! (oo that was the most bitchy thing I've said on this place)

Shifty

Fluidskills.com · Post by **Fluidskills.com** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 10:53 am

something to think about

if there is a element of moving the group on your assessment and the learners are in fast long centre kayaks, the only issue would be keeping up with the group and the amount of energy that you will have to use compared to the group!

if the group has to keep waiting or paddle slower all the time as because of the slower playboat then this may work against you when coaching forward paddling and crossing lakes.

play boats as all other kayaks have pros and cons, the paddler must be aware of this and the assessing instructor.

NPearce · Post by **NPearce** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:14 pm

This arguement has been around for years, I was told that when I did my level 2 assessment I had tghe wrong boat and that playboats were not for teaching in... A Pyranha Blade no less.

Lots of discussion regarding you versus the assessor, but what about the pupils?

When coaching I used the pupils boats as the key (even if it means borrowing a center boat). If the pupils were in bigger boats (Cyphurs, Dancers and the occasional Valetta!, it was a while ago I did mine) choose a bigger boat if they are in playboats then use a playboat.

Whilst in any boat the strokes you teach are similar, the different size and design of the boats will have an affect on the outcome of said strokes. By having a like for like boat demonstrations are more accurate and therfore attainable by the newbie pupil who doesnt have experience to modify their personal strokes to suit different boats.

Nathan

Jim · Post by **Jim** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:17 pm

When I worked as an instructor (briefly many years ago) I had to stop using my playboat (squashed spud, only playboat at the time) for instructing because it looked bad to onlookers (teachers, parents) when I apparantly sank each time I X-rescued a Europa. Extrapolate a little further and whilst the likes of you and me may be perfectly capable of instucting from a squirty playboat, it doesn't inspire confidence in those we are instructing - in particular swimmers like to know that when they grab your boat it will stay on the surface and help them stay on the surface......

On the other hand I would seriously advise against borrowing a bigger boat you have never tried before, I did that on my L2 many moons ago - Pyranha masters are evil, I really had to work to pass the assessment in such a godawful boat that I was in no way used to.

Jim

PKY · Post by **PKY** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 4:47 pm

paul at work wrote: Likewise I would expect you to be able to rescue an Open boat in your kayak, because as a Level 2 kayak coach your are able to coach both open boats and kayaks. And I'm not sure how easy that would be in a little playboat (the rescuing, not the coaching)

I'd expect myself and any other coach teaching open canoeing to be in an open canoe, not just for the rescue purposes but mainly coaching reasons.

I'd happily say do your assesment in the boat you plan on coaching in, why pass it in a H3 only to go off and coach in an ego. plus the assessor can see your true skills aswell. There putting your skills to the test not what kind of boating your into, end of the day your into coaching which is very much a good thing!

As a coach you will know what boat you will want to paddle and for what reasons. I've found myself in the mastertgs and master 2 for long journeys, but find playboats great for movability when playing canoe polo/cops and robbers during short distance sessions.
creekboat useless to teach playboating, playboat useless to teach marathon and marathon boat worthless to teach polo, I'd teach polo in a creekboat though!
One of the important things to be as a coach is OPEN MINDED.
Pikey

Chris C · Post by **Chris C** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 4:52 pm

My girlfriend demonstrated rescueing a swamped open canoe from her Seven O s/m. Assessor had no problem.

Also if your using a lake, dont intend on going on a journey then thereis nothing wrong in having your equipment like spare clothing in your mini bus, car etc. But if you do go on a journey then you need the equipment within your group. This can be shared out within the group and let everybody carry something, aslong as you can get to it if you need it.

If you feel comfortable in your boat use it. Good luck guys hope it all goes well.

BoaterJH · Post by **BoaterJH** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 5:20 pm

It seems like a lot of people are of the opinion that if you can do everything in your playboat then what is the problem.

Do assessors prefer bigger boats though?

Chris C · Post by **Chris C** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 5:39 pm

BoaterJH wrote:It seems like a lot of people are of the opinion that if you can do everything in your playboat then what is the problem.

Do assessors prefer bigger boats though?

I do not personally think that a play boat is good for everything, as long as you are comfortable in your boat and can perform everything that you want and need to. I personally use a boat that is suitable for the environment, the type of session and the group. That could be a playful river runner, my creeker or whatever the centres are using.

Paul Smith · Post by **Paul Smith** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 5:42 pm

PKY wrote: I'd expect myself and any other coach teaching open canoeing to be in an open canoe, not just for the rescue purposes but mainly coaching reasons.

True, but frequently these days I find myself coaching a range of craft at the same time. As you well could do working at a centre. Particularly on a taster session.

Martyn Hartley · Post by **Martyn Hartley** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 7:58 pm

Do assessors prefer bigger boats though?

Not at all - But I expect anyone on an Assessment to demonstrate all the strokes and/or rescues required. I also expect them to be able to stay in their boat for the duration of the session, and to carry whatever kit is required.
I can't recall having actually failed anyone because of the boat they were paddling but I can remember some who have passed well in playboats.

A big part of going for assessment is in your attitude - acting professionally and being aware of the issues. You also need to understand how your boat behaves comparatively to the people you are Coaching. Perfect demos of a stroke in your playboat are one thing, but if the group replicate your actions in their boats, will the results be the same?

Someone else raised a very good point - talk to your Assessor about their views and what they expect. I certainly have no issues with being asked for advice, and am quite happy to discuss things openly here or elsewhere, as are Wilf and others.

Shifty · Post by **Shifty** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 8:29 pm

Fluidskills.com wrote:something to think about

if there is a element of moving the group on your assessment and the learners are in fast long centre kayaks, the only issue would be keeping up with the group and the amount of energy that you will have to use compared to the group!

if the group has to keep waiting or paddle slower all the time as because of the slower playboat then this may work against you when coaching forward paddling and crossing lakes.

play boats as all other kayaks have pros and cons, the paddler must be aware of this and the assessing instructor.

yea I agree entirely, I always use my burn if we're off anywhere other than the lake.

UKRGB

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Playboats as a coaching boat?

Playboats as a coaching boat?

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