dzzz....over and out....

Inland paddling
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robt
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dzzz....over and out....

Post by robt »

Idle speculation I know, but I was watching a rowing race on sat (god-awful looking sport if you ask me...) but what I thought nifty was the way all the little steering people at the back had a mini-radio thing to talk to the rest of the boat.

I've wondered about this kayaking. Its terribly easy to briefly lose line of sight contact with your paddling buddies on the river, especially steep ones, so how smart would it be to go down a drop, flick down your mouthpiece from your helmet and radio back up...

"boys, its a nice line left, although stopper has a big right kick at the bottom. over and out".

Has anyone ever used waterproof radios on a river? Even if you had those little ones in waterproof bags attached to your BA it would surely be useful - for on-the-wave abuse while playing, and as a much better form of communication while creeking...

finacially broken kit bunny. inspired by 'rapid air'.

Snooky
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Radios etc

Post by Snooky »

They had them at I.C.E. a few years ago, they were marketing them as a coaching aid. More than that I do not know.
I for one wouldn't use it because I cant stand anything that restricts my hearing, I even cut ear holes in earwigs.
However, that is just my opinion, I am sure some may like the idea.
Cheers for now
Snooky

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nwilko
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line of Sight

Post by nwilko »

Doesnt it make more sense to rely on Line of Sight, if you can't see it, dont paddle it. And if you cant see your mates something has gone wrong, wouldnt it be better to regain line of sight instead of relying on a radio, what if youve lost line of sight do you spend 5minutes trying on the radio before then having to physically find them getting a right stuffing. Thats without the practical problems of background noise and how do you hold the radio and also paddle ?
Keep it simple...

Steve B
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Re: dzzz....over and out....

Post by Steve B »

Or you could go for that new technology that uses voice-over-ip to give you a permanently open 'chat' connection between a group of mobile phones. What could possibly go wrong with that?

Steve B
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steddyjames
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Re: dzzz....over and out....

Post by steddyjames »

We have two radios we use when snowboarding, mainly useful when off piste.

We don't 'need' them and certainly don't rely on them but they are handy when they work. Also helps when arranging to meet for tea and medals with other groups on the hill.

Never used them for kayaking though, guess they could be useful in certain circumstances but I don't think I can see the need.

Steve

stevewilford
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Hearing aids

Post by stevewilford »

Whilst I'd agree they're not a particularly good idea, I remember seeing a couple of years ago about a development that would been excellent for the job. I think it might have been on tomorrows world.

It was a lifeguard or RNLI backed initiative to design an ear peice that could be easily used in the water in noisy conditions by people on RIBs, Jetskis or in the water. It worked on a loop system so the wearer could recieve the signal from anywhere within about 10 metres or so of the transmitter (In this case the transmitter was in the boat.

The "earpiece" they used attached to your jaw and sent vibrations through the bone of your jaw that could be picked up by the inner ear. This meant whether above or below water in in very noisy conditions the wearer could recieve and hear a signal. Then from the shore, helicopter etc they could rely meesages to the would be rescuer.


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Mark R
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Re: Hearing aids

Post by Mark R »

In Canada we used paired walkie-talkies ( from Kevin's toybox) but for some reason we never took them on the river...I can think of at least one time they would have been useful, whilst we were strung out inspecting in densely forested gorge on the Ashlu. Might also have been useful to let the shuttle bunny know what was going on.

They were most useful to tell the other vehicle when Chris had taken a wrong turn...every ten minutes or so.


-----------Mark Rainsley

Jimbo
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Line of sight?

Post by Jimbo »

And if you cant see your mates something has gone wrong
You don't often paddle rivers with corners or big drops then ;)

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Poke
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Radios in ze alps

Post by Poke »

Rob,
Went to the alps a few years back with my local canoeclub and someone had a set of three or four waterproof two way radios. They didn't get used for anything serious, but it was entertaining when someone f**ked up and came up cursing since the radios were voice activated.

Perhaps we should invest in some for canada this summer! :D

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Jim
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Re: dzzz....over and out....

Post by Jim »

Ne fule nose its 'over' or 'out'. They have opposite meanings!

Keeping them working would be a challenge, but I can see possible uses for them - mainly whilst scouting from the bank to be honest. I've certainly never felt I really needed them, for correcting driving errors mobile phones usually work OK.

Jimbo - even with corners and big drops on the river most of the time you should only carry on if you can see the next eddy (or know the bit really well) - it is quite possible to paddle around bends and over large drops and get back into the line of sight of the next paddler. Top tip is to try and find breakouts on the outside of bends so you can see further round. Another is to try and break out on alternate sides so you can see each other diagonally across the river (if all on the same side you can be hidden by the features forming the eddies). These things used to be taught but I have a feeling many people are left to work them out for themselves now!

JIM

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nichburton
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Radios

Post by nichburton »

Got to agree with Steddyjames. I've had a pair for a few months, and while I don't *need* them they cetainly can have their uses. Best example was getting lost while biking, and being able to simply find out which path my mates had taken without resorting to ages of back-tracking and aimless shouting!

I think 7dayshop.com do all the Aquapac cases at a cheap price, and that includes the radio-shaped pacs. £11each last time I looked - I reckon they'd do the job for keeping a radio in your b/aid pocket for scouting/emergencies etc.

Nick

Helen
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Thanks Jim

Post by Helen »

Ne fule nose its 'over' or 'out'. They have opposite meanings!

Was all set to post this myself! Over means ' I want a response' out means 'I don't'!

Life in the services showing!

Sorry - just one of those things that really annoys me!

Helen

no paddling this weekend cause visiting parents! Have leeway now though!

House warming with exteme paddling DVD's planned for next weekend. I can cope with that!

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Martyn Read
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Re: Radios

Post by Martyn Read »

Our clubs got a few of these radios, used in the aquapack bags. I'm not the greatest fan of the things. My biggest issue is over use. People just seem to use them willy nilly rather than when there's really a case for them.
Martyn
www.weloveitmoist.co.uk

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Phil Woodhead
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Re: Radios

Post by Phil Woodhead »

Whenever you record video anywhere near a river all you can usually hear is .....shh.....snap..crackle.....pop....rar....crackle....

Would'nt you get the same with walki-talki's? Do you get super expensive ones with like gadgety electronics?

All kit can be useful given the right time and place. Be damned if I'm going to carry it all though. Do you think sat-nav would help me get the right line?

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robt
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point taken

Post by robt »

Ok point taken, I shall bury my secret desire to be James Bond back in the dark depths of my psyche. I suppose they're more useful for split apart bank scouting/driving communications than actually on the river.

Jimbo
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Re: dzzz....over and out....

Post by Jimbo »

Jim - I entirely agree, my point was more that things don't necesserily have to have gone "wrong" if you can't.

Your points about breaking out on the outside of bends and opposite side are interesting, they're things that I guess I've picked up over the years without really thinking about it. Of course neither of them help much when the people you're with happily paddle off into the distance without looking back...

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gone wrong

Post by Alec »

Jimbo

Depends how you define "gone wrong". If you have lost line of sight you almost certainly have done something wrong. Gone wrong does not neccesarily equate to "epic". Losing line of sight does not mean you are going to have an epic just that if you lose line of sight a lot eventually you will probably have an epic that you could have avoided if you had maintained line of sight.


Alec

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Mark R
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Re: gone wrong

Post by Mark R »

Jimbo - 'when the people you're with happily paddle off into the distance without looking back... '

You've boated with Chris Wheeler then.


-----------Mark Rainsley

Jimbo
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Re: gone wrong

Post by Jimbo »

I think we're all in agreement that line of site is a good thing, but how far do you take it?

Let's say a couple of you are running something well within your comfort zone. You come to a horizon line. Being the cautious and non-complacent types that you are you both get out to inspect. It looks fine, so you both go back to your boats and get in. One person sets off first, goes over the drop. Now at this stage you lose line of sight, albeit briefly, and as you say there is potential for something bad, but wouldn't you do it anyway?

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line of sight

Post by Alec »

There's huge potential here for a great long discussion on the differences between theory and practice.

Theoretically: I'd be paddling in a 3 with 1 person on the bank to maintain line of sight between the 2 paddlers on the water.

In practice: I probably wouldn't worry too much about briefly losing line of sight as long as line of sight is regained quickly. Personally I probably wouldn't run the drop until I'd regained line of sight.

Alec

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Re: line of sight

Post by Steve B »

How many of you put a man in the eddy at the bend on the Tryweryn Graveyard to maintain line of sight? Every time?

Is it possible to run the Spean Gorge without losing line of sight?

In a group of three, when would you take a man off the water to maintain line of sight?

Is it acceptable for "line of sight" to be over such a distance that only paddle signals can be used to communicate?

Steve B.

magic knees
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'Duracell Bunny Syndrome'

Post by magic knees »

Mark- I saw that message, don't think I'm not watching!!

Well, let's face it, looking back to check the others does waste valuable seconds, when you're racing eachother down the river. Welcome to the Darwin school of kayaking. In those wildlife documentaries, it's always the straggler (you know, the little, fluffy, cuddly runt of the litter) that gets picked off. I'm not going last.

Chris W.

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Jim
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Re: line of sight

Post by Jim »

Steve B - "Is it possible to run the Spean Gorge without losing line of sight?"

Yes.
A) when it's high and all the rapids are washed out
B) When it's not level the only rapid where line of sight has to be lost is headbanger, and I would never run it other than in flood without inspecting anyway....

It is not easy to maintain line of sight on all rapids and it would require using some often ignored micro eddies but beleive me it is possible!

- Fairy steps is straightforward, although stopping halfway is not something I've ever tried you can see the end from the start.

- Unnamed rapid that washes against a wall, you can position to look down the guts of it from the left before you are committed.

- The cauldron lead in can be done if you break out right opposite the wall rather than left above the drop and the next paddler crosses to hard right above the boulder to see you before crossing back to run it (you can't actually see the eddy before you go in there but you know it's there, and if you miss you can paddle back up from the left eddy).

- Constriction, in very low is flat and you can approach in line astern, when it is low to mediumish you can position hard against the wall and look down it before getting committed, and/or break out left on a whirly thing half way down (not advised, very difficult to get out of in line for the constriction!). From medium to high you can look over the rock or drop on river right without getting out of your boat - obviously requires care if it is flowing over it! High, well it's just a stopper on a bend!

- Final rapid, ummm more tricky since the tree roots washed away, at most levels you can break out in the left channel but I'm wondering if it would always be possible. The right channel was always quite blind, but in the old days you could break out above the roots and look at the eddies below before heading off round the right side of the boulder.....

I didn't say it's wrong to ever go out of line of sight, we do it quite a lot, but only where we are fairly certain of the outcome! The straight line tourists are not the only people that abandon each other on the river - I tend to find it useful to make sure I'm paddling with at least one person I can rely on to stay with me (and me to stay with them) - in fact when it gets really hard, it is perhaps better if you do split off into buddy pairs rather than try and keep in touch as a 6 or something!

JIM

Steve B
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Re: line of sight

Post by Steve B »

Thanks Jim, to be honest it's so long since I've been up there I couldn't remember the detail - but I do recall a few blind corners at low levels.

Next time we'll take you along as guide...

Steve B

cheeky
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Paddle signals

Post by cheeky »

"Is it acceptable for "line of sight" to be over such a distance that only paddle signals can be used to communicate?"
And the reason (other perhaps than aiding clarity) for using paddle signals is???!! :D

"Darwin (blah blah...)" - Chris W.
Conway Falls '89 = Darwin selection procedure?? You don't need to be last in the group! :rollin

Steve B
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Re: Paddle signals

Post by Steve B »

The current line according to BCU WWS&R (therefore 'best practice' - don't underestimate the importance of this if you ever have to justify your actions!) is to use hand signals, never paddle signals.

Which was, in fact, the point of the question :-)

Steve B

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Stronze
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"duracell bunny syndrome"

Post by Stronze »

Chris,

That is no way to refer to Kevin... even when in Devon.

Neil

magic knees
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Darwin

Post by magic knees »

'Cheeky' (blah blah)- well, given that there were only two of us on the water, I was last. Oh, the irony.

Chris W.


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