Using Playboats On White Water. Bad Idea?

Inland paddling
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AliG
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Post by AliG »

TheKrikkitWars wrote:Looking at the mountain biking parallel, I ride a alu framed XC hartail with 80mm forks, yet frequently ride stuff where I'm constantly meeting guys on freeride bikes with 8in travel, what does this say about me (or the other bikers)?
You ride different bikes?

You are both comfortable on the same thing on different bikes?
Ali

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glupton
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Post by glupton »

It says that if you've got a bit of skill and are not doing silly stuff then you dont really need the full-on kit to do it. As for some of the others maybe they are just all the gear nad no idea.

I've got a alu xc hardtail with 100mm forks and a 6" full sus number. The xc bike is faster for my normal riding over the whole day, but the 6" full sus number is much more fun.
Last edited by glupton on Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Tom_Laws
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Post by Tom_Laws »

TheKrikkitWars wrote:Looking at the mountain biking parallel, I ride a alu framed XC hartail with 80mm forks, yet frequently ride stuff where I'm constantly meeting guys on freeride bikes with 8in travel, what does this say about me (or the other bikers)?
That you should buy a better bike and stop being so smug.

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kevinf
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Post by kevinf »

- ALL PADDLERS F*@K UP! Absolutely without exception.

- When YOU mess up, you want to be in the right boat.

- Those who have to rescue you will want you to be in the right boat.

- People do die on easy grade 3. This is fact, I have been there.

- Playboats have poor attachment points, they will pin and get trapped far more easily than a creek boat due to slicy ends.




Of course you can get away with it time and time again, maybe one day you won't.

I am sad to say this is all based on first hand experience

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Canned
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Post by Canned »

Can anyone else see that this thread seems to be hinting that skills cannot be developed unless you're in a boat that is less stable and less forgiving?

Does that mean that no one is hardcore unless you're either running big drops in a squirt boat or mountain biking on an old Raleigh Grifter?!

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Post by Jay Oram »

My 2pence worth

I have been paddling for a few years and have only enough money to buy a playboat - I have grown up with the boat passing everything from 1* - 3* and gaining level 2 coach (not all in the playboat) and i paddle evrything in my playboat (fluid flirt) never had any problems mentioned on here like pinning, back loops, not enough room for gear, getting caught because of my edges or anything like that.

But when i am coaching i will use a bigger boat, like an RPM as i am quite short and weigh very little and have small feet. A creek boat swamps me and have trouble paddling it - therefore i will paddle better in a playboat and be safer.

I am currently looking for a playboat type creeker any ideas??
-flat hull
- edges
- needs to not swamp me - 5'8 size 6 feet 9.5 stone with all gear.

Jay

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Rick Foster
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Post by Rick Foster »

Ammo, or slightly longer thunder.

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Post by Tom_Laws »

Small burn, small Mamba.

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phil_grice
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Post by phil_grice »

looking for a playboat type creeker any ideas??
Bliss-Stick SCUD! It's just a RAD-185 hull with loads of volume on top. Paddles just like a playboat but with the added volume for storing important stuff like sandwiches and Haribo.

Edit: Oh yeah and it's really short, I had the same problem feeling swamped in proper creekers.

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Post by cswalker »

High Brace wrote:My 2pence worth

I have been paddling for a few years and have only enough money to buy a playboat - I have grown up with the boat passing everything from 1* - 3* and gaining level 2 coach (not all in the playboat) and I paddle evrything in my playboat (fluid flirt) never had any problems mentioned on here like pinning, back loops, not enough room for gear, getting caught because of my edges or anything like that.

But when I am coaching I will use a bigger boat, like an RPM as I am quite short and weigh very little and have small feet. A creek boat swamps me and have trouble paddling it - therefore I will paddle better in a playboat and be safer.

I am currently looking for a playboat type creeker any ideas??
-flat hull
- edges
- needs to not swamp me - 5'8 size 6 feet 9.5 stone with all gear.

Jay
Hoss / Lil Joe, that's what a lot of the coaches in North Wales were / are using!

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iainporter
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Post by iainporter »

Tom_Laws wrote:
TheKrikkitWars wrote:Looking at the mountain biking parallel, I ride a alu framed XC hartail with 80mm forks, yet frequently ride stuff where I'm constantly meeting guys on freeride bikes with 8in travel, what does this say about me (or the other bikers)?
That you should buy a better bike and stop being so smug.
Last time I took my explorer scouts mountain biking I ended up running the Marin trail on my spare bike - a 24" frame with no suspension and ridiculously wide handlebars... oh, and toeclips... because we were a bike short and I was the only one tall enough to use it. What made it worse was watching one of my mates take my lovely 21" aluminium alloy framed dawes thing with actual front suspension and my SPD pedals round while I was shaking myself to pieces and hitting trees. It made the trail an interesting challenge though :-)

Not that that's in any way on topic...

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Post by morsey »

iainporter wrote:dawes thing
You were probably better off with the rigid, unless that also was a Dawes! (Lets hope it was an Overbury's or Argos bike!)

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TheKrikkitWars
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Post by TheKrikkitWars »

Tom_Laws wrote:
TheKrikkitWars wrote:Looking at the mountain biking parallel, I ride a alu framed XC hartail with 80mm forks, yet frequently ride stuff where I'm constantly meeting guys on freeride bikes with 8in travel, what does this say about me (or the other bikers)?
That you should buy a better bike and stop being so smug.
It's brand new, thank you very much, I just don't want or need full sus. I wasn't trying to be smug, only make the point that people buy inappropriate gear, the trails I ride tend have lots of up hills and then moderately steep downhills with the occasional obstruction or drop of a few feet, the XC bike suits, yet all these guys draging themselves round on huge freeriders are killing themselves going up hill and still going slower than me downhill, so why bother?
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Post by jmmoxon »

What everyone seems to be forgetting is that most British grade 5s are not grade 5 AT THE LEVELS WE NORMALLY PADDLE THEM. They are often graded for a high water level, which they rarely stay at for long, or historically still graded for long/fibreglass boats.

Mike

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feelingjustfine
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Post by feelingjustfine »

I think it is whatever boat gets you to the bottom of the river easiest and in the most enjoyable way. I paddle a Critical Mass for my creek boat so it just makes lower grade runs(basically anything that I can take my playboat down) boring, just goes straight through everything and never gets and funky time so I am perfectly happy paddling my Fish down lots of things upto class4+. However, as stated earlier, it totally depends what type of river you are paddling and it works both ways. Now I only ever take my creek boat down the Etive because edges on my playboat just piss me off on any river with rocks you know are going to come into contact with your boat at some point(and if there are absolutley no rocks anywhere on the Etive I'm deffo wanting my CM!). Likewise, when has anyone ever run Hypoxia in a creekboat? Different strokes. I think Tom's point-
There is more room for cameras in creek boats, hence they are safer.
Is a very important one that should never be overlooked. I see so many people out paddling playboats with airbags in the back instead of food and filming equipment, whats that all about? Good example of a playboating river in UK is the Moriston as Banzer said-it is way more fun in playboats and the only part that really makes a difference as far as having a powerfull boat is the bottom stopper of the lower...it can be a bitch!
My 2pence worth

I have been paddling for a few years and have only enough money to buy a playboat - I have grown up with the boat passing everything from 1* - 3* and gaining level 2 coach (not all in the playboat) and I paddle evrything in my playboat (fluid flirt) never had any problems mentioned on here like pinning, back loops, not enough room for gear, getting caught because of my edges or anything like that.

But when I am coaching I will use a bigger boat, like an RPM as I am quite short and weigh very little and have small feet. A creek boat swamps me and have trouble paddling it - therefore I will paddle better in a playboat and be safer.

I am currently looking for a playboat type creeker any ideas??
-flat hull
- edges
- needs to not swamp me - 5'8 size 6 feet 9.5 stone with all gear.

Jay
Fluid Spice M... So over looked as a boat- you can blunt them, creek in them and you don't have to bare the shame of paddling a Pyranah-how cool is that!
Larger kayaks require more skill to perform an effective boof (except for some of the really high rockered designs) and require more paddler technique to catch eddies(in terms of tuurning into smaller eddies).
You need to try missing a boof with a big tow back in a playboat or takinga playboat down a pushy creek mate. This is an utterly stupid misconception that loads of people have. Instead of learning how to tail squirt on a class 2 eddy line why not learn how to paddle a propper boat properly, it won't take as much as you think and will undoutabley save your ass when it matters.
Last edited by feelingjustfine on Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
dam the dart :)

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Post by steddyjames »

TheKrikkitWars wrote:yet all these guys draging themselves round on huge freeriders are killing themselves going up hill and still going slower than me downhill, so why bother?
A full suss XC bike with either an intelligent rear shock or lock out can go someway to solving the uphill struggle.

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Post by Tom_Laws »

TheKrikkitWars wrote:Some stuff
Because they can. Get over it. I ride XC on my singlespeed dirt jump bike, but its hard work. Anyway I was bored of this whole debate a long time ago, so here are some pictures of stuff relating to bikes, for those who are also bored.

Image
Clearing a new line at the local trails.

Image
Riding the result. Mmm, hip jumps...

Image
Chris at Frome Trails

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Post by kendomat »

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Post by iainporter »

morsey wrote:You were probably better off with the rigid, unless that also was a Dawes! (Lets hope it was an Overbury's or Argos bike!)
Not too far off. It's a Saracen I bought for £150 ten years ago. Well, bits of it are.

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Post by kendomat »

Welcome to the bike forum :)

There is a great BMX on the dock side of Salford Quays if any one wants it.... The divers pulled it out from the bottom...

Its a super duper bike, and will get you any where you want...

1 pre requisite for its use... Effort and determination...

Maybe people should carry that on to any sport they participate in...

Then any peice of equipment should do the job :) hahahahahahaha

'More abuse and detrimatal coments ' 'More abuse and detrimatal coments ' 'More abuse and detrimatal coments ' 'More abuse and detrimatal coments ' 'More abuse and detrimatal coments '
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Post by steddyjames »

Tom_Laws wrote: Because they can. Get over it. I ride XC on my singlespeed dirt jump bike, but its hard work. Anyway I was bored of this whole debate a long time ago,
On this occasion Tom I think I actually agree with your sentiments.

Bikes only really matter if serious racing/downhilling is your bag, but geneally who cares what you ride.

I recently competed in the Mountain Mayhem 24hr race. Point proven there. There were categories for uni-cycles, single speeders, people were on hard tails, full sussers, fully rigid and any combination of the above.

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Post by Bod »

I think it is unwise prolonging the bike bit but the only analogy with paddling is that surely the name of the game is to have as many as you possibly can?

You need 5 boats and you need 5 bikes. At least. End of. 1 boat and 1 bike shows a lack of commitment to distribution of disposable income.
John B.

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Post by David Fairweather »

If you want a good compromise between a full on creek boat with rounded hull and the short length of a playboat, then you might find that one of these will suit your needs perfectly.

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Post by Bod »

skip wrote:If you want a good compromise between a full on creek boat with rounded hull and the short length of a playboat, then you might find that one of these will suit your needs perfectly.
Good to see we are back on topic.
John B.

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Dr Repper
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Post by Dr Repper »

kevinf wrote:- ALL PADDLERS F*@K UP! Absolutely without exception.

- When YOU mess up, you want to be in the right boat.

- Those who have to rescue you will want you to be in the right boat.

- People do die on easy grade 3. This is fact, I have been there.

- Playboats have poor attachment points, they will pin and get trapped far more easily than a creek boat due to slicy ends.


Of course you can get away with it time and time again, maybe one day you won't.

I am sad to say this is all based on first hand experience
I am sorry to hear about your bad experience. This is obviously a highly emotive topic for you and believe me when I say that I mean no offence when I take issue with some of your points.

However...

It is IMPOSSIBLE to use a freestyle kayak properly without accepting that it will often be necessary to paddle it down whitewater simply in order to access the feature on which you want to play. 'Park and play' is something of a misnomer really. Only a comparitively small proportion of decent playspots are accessible directly (artificial weirs are something of a freak occurence in the greater scheme of things).

Regardless, whitewater kayaking in all it's forms is an assumed risk activity. People can and will die in even the most seemingly benign of whitewater environments. Even at a park and play feature, especially a big one (like HSR) there is a very real danger of death. Using HSR as an example, at say 700 cumecs the river left broken section of the wave will probably kill you (10 foot foam pile breaking into 18 inches of water) and even on the relatively benign sections of the wave a severe ragdolling could see you dislocating both shoulders and drowning in your boat before anyone can get to you. Even considering this, you'll rarely see anything other than full on freestyle boats being paddled here and deaths are rare. The important thing is to weigh up the risks properly and proportionately. If it's a low volume run with little or no play potential there's no need to paddle a play boat. If it's a big volume run with very little to get pinned on then a playboat may well be suitable. Horses for courses.

Saying that 'sooner or later you or someone you know will come unstuck' tto people that regularly engage in an inherently dangerous activity is a little meaningless given that the sport will always kill a certain proportion of it's participants. I have known a number of people that have drowned or been severely injured paddling and I'm not sure that being in a different boat would have saved any of them. I would certainly never suggest that it's necessary to paddle a creek boat on any water above grade three as such boats are patently unsuitable for most whitewater and can cause more problems than they solve. It's possible that you did not mean to imply this but it's certainly how your post reads.
What's the worst that could happen?

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Post by Mr Hoppy »

Dr Repper wrote:I would certainly never suggest that it's necessary to paddle a creek boat on any water above grade three as such boats are patently unsuitable for most whitewater and can cause more problems than they solve.
Why are creek boats patently unsuitable for most whitewater and what problems do they cause? There may possibly be more suitable boats for a given stretch of water but, in this country, there is very little whitewater where a creekboat would be unsuitable. I can think of plenty of stretches where other types of boats would be unsuitable though.

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Post by Jones Chris »

I think you should paddle whatever the hell you want!

I'm old, and unless there is a great seam for my squirtboat, or a wicked playspot for the playboat, half way down the river I am doing that particular day then I am taking my lovely, comfortable, safe, far too big and far more capable than my standard of paddling; large Burn.

Yes even on Grade 2!

If you wanna take your squirtboat or playboat, coracle or even open boat with me on any river then you are more than welcome - I only care that you are (largely - everyone makes mistakes) capable of doing the river. If you keep having epics that spoil my day on the river I have a very easy solution - I wont paddle with you!

Its not me that has to put up with a bad back or not being able to walk for no reason. That said if halfway down there is a great feature then I too will be in the squirt or playboat.

Paddle whatever you find the most fun! (within reason!)

Chris

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Dr Repper
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Post by Dr Repper »

Mr Hoppy wrote:
Dr Repper wrote:I would certainly never suggest that it's necessary to paddle a creek boat on any water above grade three as such boats are patently unsuitable for most whitewater and can cause more problems than they solve.
Why are creek boats patently unsuitable for most whitewater and what problems do they cause? There may possibly be more suitable boats for a given stretch of water but, in this country, there is very little whitewater where a creekboat would be unsuitable. I can think of plenty of stretches where other types of boats would be unsuitable though.
The rivers of the UK most certainly do not represent 'most whitewater'.

Creekboats are bulbous and often cumbersome, are awkward for a lot of beginners to actually reach around, relatively difficult to outfit to a decent standard of fit, track badly and are prime hole bait. They're okay if you're pretty handy or pretty large but a significant proportion of paddlers find them a great deal harder to move about and as such may well find themselves actually getting into problems more often.

Fundamentally I think you missunderstand my point. Creek boats are for creeks. Most rivers are not creeks.

Anything else?
What's the worst that could happen?

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Post by cswalker »

Dr Repper wrote:Creekboats are bulbous and often cumbersome, are awkward for a lot of beginners to actually reach around, relatively difficult to outfit to a decent standard of fit, track badly and are prime hole bait. They're okay if you're pretty handy or pretty large but a significant proportion of paddlers find them a great deal harder to move about and as such may well find themselves actually getting into problems more often.
I disagree, technology and designs have progressed far from the 'bathtub' style boats!
Dr Repper wrote:Fundamentally I think you missunderstand my point. Creek boats are for creeks. Most rivers are not creeks.
Maybe so, but how do you define a creek from a river, and what do a lot of people paddle in the UK mountains, I would hasten to say, creeks.

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samw
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Post by samw »

I've got two boats. A h3 for Upper Dart and Lyn etc. A gforce for Loop, Exe, Play boating and surf.

I've only got 1 Mtb; a hardtail with 85 - 140mm travel which can take loads of abuse (and has) and is light enough to rise all day. If I really want give it abuse I just pop on my other wheels. Yes a hardtail is a quick as full suss in the right hands. And at the moment I really enjoy riding my hardtail.

The same applies to boats; I feel most happy on the Upper and Lyn in my h3 thats why I got it. Yet people paddle these rivers in playboats just as well if not better. However a creeker won't cartwheel etc as well as playboat thats why I've got the gforce plus it keeps the loop intresting.

If I had the money I would have 6'' AM rig for those days when I really want ride hard, and also a surf boat.

At the end of day paddle/ride what you most happy with. However a creek boat I feel is a good idea from safety point of view.

Thats my ramblings on the subject.

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