Voluntarily Agreed Fairy Tale Nonsense

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Mark R
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Voluntarily Agreed Fairy Tale Nonsense

Post by Mark R »

Bless the Environment Agency...
http://www.ukriversguidebook.co.uk/cano ... ry2006.pdf

Read the very first line on page 4. I challenge you to be able to read any more than that.
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Post by Poke »

That's so wrong it's funny!
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Post by Mark R »

It's not funny.
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Post by RobMoffatt »

O dear, perhaps they forgot to leave out the percentage of cases in which it works... a number in the region of 0.3%

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Post by Simon Westgarth »

Its as if they have not considered that last 40 years in attempting to make access agreements, and the clear lack of progress in this tactic!! I love the quote of 2 km of river around Ludlow!! Hmmmmm so what about the rest of the river, did not anyone point out that paddlesport is a linear experience. And what about Scotland's successes, its as if its not relavent.

So to the water with us, the only clear way forward is to please ourselves and await legal recourse. Still all good for the BCU's efforts to bang the drum. With the EA firmly rooted in with their main customer, it appears that they are not going to be very neutral on this matter. No one has explained to them that paddlesport and fishermen clearly have had a successful relationship when it comes to sharing rivers, so what makes England and Wales so different.

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Post by Chris W »

Well, I've just waded through it all. My favourite has to be the last paragraph on page 9. Sums it up really- all landowners have the power of veto and no doubt Martin Salter will be quietly telling them just that. If you're an angling lanowner who enjoys an income from sporting rights, what incentive do you have, unless of course, paddlers are turning up and paddling the river anyway?

So far as I can see, none of the 4 pilots feature a decent stretch of upland fly fishing grade 3/4. Bit of a flaw.

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Post by Patrick »

That's so wrong it's not funny.

Nothing in the report sugest a way which might reduce the conflict I have come across. The one thing that it has seamed to achive is to spread the notion that people who own part of a river bank have a right to dictate who canoes past their land.

Seriously bad.

It's hard to understant how the people writing it had come to their conclusion. I decided that they must have had very limited comunication with canoeists, or be intent to write a report with possitive findings for personal reasons (they cirtainly ask for lots of investment, repeatedly.)

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Post by slipperystav »

"28km from Stockport City centre to Carrington"

Thats 28k that really isn't on my list of "stretchs of whitewater I must paddle before I kick it."

http://www.flickr.com/photos/62812635@N ... 16/?page=2

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Post by JamesA »

BBC has posted something today about it, only found it via Search tool: (edit: it was under Norfolk's section)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/5406576.stm

(sorry if this has been posted already)
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Voluntary Agreed Fariy Tale nonsens

Post by Stuart J Woodward »

A nice peice of political correct clap-trap. I liked the statement that 99% of landowners were willing to consider access. Only consider mind you, is that a good basis for negotiation, perhaps we should go back to doffing our caps to Master.

I wonder how much it actually cost to produce a document that advises us to go back to a procedure, that's been proven to work only for one side. Mind according to the EA we have moved on, that the landowners will now, consider our request for what the next 50 years

I do however like the images of exciting white water. Do the images displayed reflect the impression the EA have of Kayaking/Canoeing on rivers in England and Wales. If so it's no wonder that they are so wide of the mark, so wide of the mark they most be on another planet.

Best thing is to just go boating.
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Post by Yakingmad »

It's nice to see what a university education brings, I think this report could be summed up in one 8 letter word that starts with a B and I will let you fill the rest of the letters in.

Well back to the drawing board, perhaps in another 20 years time they will waste more money on a survey!

Perhaps the answer is to stick a fishing rod on the back of our boats and say we are not canoeists we are fishermen!!

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Post by James F »

A bit of a waste of time debunking the report line-by-line but the following headline, which takes up half a page, seems to be blatant misinformation:

"The real significance of our work is that agreements have been acheived on all the pilot rivers"

I might be wrong but didn't they drop two rivers from the study because they were going to be too difficult?

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Post by James F »

That report is so full of baloney its beyond me to not debunk it line by line:

"The British Canoe Union (BCU) and others have expressed concerns about the potential of voluntary agreements to provide access. The study found that these concerns are based largely on the limited results and experiences of local volunteers and an often random, under-resourced approach to negotiating agreements."

...and the money to pay for a network of professional full time access negotiators is going to come from?

"Our study finds that, although concerns have been raised, two legs are in fact good and four legs bad"

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Post by James F »

"Canoeists need to respect any terms and conditions on which agreement for access are granted in order to owners is the cornerstone to negotiating successful and maintain and encourage the confidence of land and riparian owners."

or...

"Somehow it seemed as though the farm had grown richer without making the animals themselves any richer— except, of course, for the pigs and the dogs."

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Post by James F »

"Canoe agreements do not cost much to achieve... "

What?

They said previous attempts were 'under-resourced' a few pages back.

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Post by Bod »

Page 6 is nice. My paraphrase: "BCU stop your nasty anarchic access campaign and get everyone in line"

I can only imagine Corwen Anglers must have been singing in the Valleys last night.

Edit, sorry can't keep up with James!
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Post by James F »

"There are issues about the management of long distance linear agreements that cannot be addressed easily by individuals or groups of riparian owners."

If the word easily is left out of that sentence it makes sense.

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Post by James F »

"Commitment from the BCU (and other paddling organisations) to positively participate in supporting the negotiation, implementation and management of local voluntary agreements. This should include actively encouraging their members and other canoeists to respect the terms and conditions of local agreements and some system of dealing with members who knowingly trespass on water for which no rights exist or abuse local access arrangements."

If the BCU did that they would pretty quickly find themselves up against a wall, smoking a fag and wearing a blindfold.

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Post by James F »

"Research on the value and benefits of canoeing… Research is therefore required to identify, in an accepted form compatible with other studies, the social and economic value of canoeing."

They are actually pitching for their next government funded junket in this report. The cheek of it.

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Post by James F »

What a steaming pile of horse shit. If anyone has any doubts about guerilla marketing the access campaign, now's the time to dispel them. No good will come of rational argument with these people.

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Post by Mark R »

James F wrote:What a steaming pile of horse shit.
Not very interesting, but I used almost the exact same words in reply to Tamsin last night, having received this.


Someone remind me...who specifically was responsible for the Brighton survey? I strongly wish to directly let them know what I think of their conclusions.
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Post by Bod »

I have been re-reading the BCU response to this report in the thread from yesterday:

http://www.ukriversguidebook.co.uk/foru ... hp?t=17805

I think it is fairly robust. Will we also get a statement similar to the WCA one declaring open season?

For all the good work done lobbying, the EDM etc, it is clear the authorities only want us to shut up. I take encourgement from that because I doubt we ever truly got on the radar before.
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Post by Bod »

Shelley Frosdick is the Press Office name on the EA Website attached to the report



http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/news/1483044



And her e-mail address shelley.frosdick@environment-agency.gov.uk



From this I think we can guess the acting Chief Executive will have the address paul.leinster@environment-agency.gov.uk



Might be worth sending responses to both of them?
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Post by Jon Wood »

Someone remind me...who specifically was responsible for the Brighton survey? I strongly wish to directly let them know what I think of their conclusions.
"In 2004 the Minister for Rural
Affairs, Landscape and Biodiversity
asked the Environment Agency to
seek to secure voluntary canoe
access agreements on four rivers in
England (Mersey, Teme, Waveney
and Wear), which had featured in
an earlier feasibility study carried
out by the Countryside Agency."


http://www.defra.gov.uk/corporate/minis ... rdiner.htm

I don't believe Mr Gardiner commisioned the report, but by his job description, certainly warrants getting a full mailbox.

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Post by Mark R »

How about the specific Brighton 'academic' who came to these groundbreaking conclusions? I believe that he/ she should be left in absolutely no doubt whatsoever about what UK paddlers think of the quality of his work.

I couldn't find any clues on the Brighton Uni website last night.
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Post by Alec »

Found this for who was responsible for the original report. Not sure if they're responsible for the latest debacle. Would be interesting to know if anything has been published in high quality peer reviewed journals yet???

http://www.brighton.ac.uk/chelsea/consu ... ryside.htm

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Post by caveman_si »

Shelley Frosdick is the Press Office name on the EA Website attached to the report
http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/news/1483044
And her e-mail address shelley.frosdick@environment-agency.gov.uk
From this I think we can guess the acting Chief Executive will have the address paul.leinster@environment-agency.gov.uk

Might be worth sending responses to both of them?


Yup Bod I think you should get throught to Paul leinster that way whether he actually reads it or not is another matter. If you want to send him a proper letter I believe he is based in the EA offices in Bristol, Rio house I think.

If you are sending emails/letters to people try David King another director at the EA like Paul Leinster (Paul is just acting chief exec as Barbra young I believe is off due to an accident). David King is the person responsible for amoungst other things: Fisheries, Conservation, Recreation and Navigation and something to do with flood defence. David.King@envir.... etc


slipperystav
http://www.flickr.com/photos/62812635@N ... 16/?page=2 ... 16/?page=2
Love the photos of the heron standing by the shopping trolly......

I love that picture too as I know where it was taken, bit of a fishing spot, and that heron has really easy pickings just by that weir.



A lot of those pics show good work by the EA to sort out some of the local problems on that stretch of the Mersey. But theres no pics of the new access points ie canoe steps that were put in as part of that project. ON the other hand some of the the EA people that put those works in have now been exposed to the general paddling communittes view on river access or the lack there of in the rest of the country. :)
Last edited by caveman_si on Thu Oct 05, 2006 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Bod »

Alec wrote:Found this for who was responsible for the original report. Not sure if they're responsible for the latest debacle. Would be interesting to know if anything has been published in high quality peer reviewed journals yet???

http://www.brighton.ac.uk/chelsea/consu ... ryside.htm
I found a similar list of names to Alec here :

http://209.85.129.104/search?q=cache:o9 ... =clnk&cd=9
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Post by BoaterJH »

It has more impact if your MP or MPs office writes for you then they have to reply within a set time (cant rember what it is now, quite quick). May be a letter to the head of recreation and navigation at the EA and maybe a letter to the Dean in charge at the uni in Brighton.

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Post by Jules »

From yesterday's Eastern Daily Press :-


Image


I guess I will be writing to them to put the record on access straight.

Jules

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