LV lake assessments?

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Bashy
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LV lake assessments?

Post by Bashy »

Hi folks, I am wanting to progress into WW so I have booked a lake assessment at LV, just wondering what to expect as I cant find any YT videos for the lake assessments, its not often ya cant find a video on a subject lol.

I am going to take my Ethos 9 as thats what I have been using all year, I am an ex 90's 3 star paddler, i say ex because i cant remember most of it so i have just completed the Explorer award, (2 star equiv' by all accounts)

I can paddle on edge, ferry, self rescue, including get back in the boat on my own. I just want to learn to eddy in/out etc

What i have noticed in videos with actual WW boats, they can edge much higher than what i can in the Ethos 9, is that down to the boat type or the paddler?

Thanks
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Re: LV lake assessments?

Post by Franky »

Looking at the Lee Valley booking pages - there is no lake assessment, only a Legacy/Lake assessment. So it sounds as though you will be paddling on the Legacy course.

I took my Legacy assessment back in 2014, so things might have changed since then. But here's what I remember...

The assessors will be looking for basic white water competence. You don't have to style it, but you'll be expected to be able to avoid hitting other paddlers, and to get into and out of a few eddies, rather than bombing down the middle of the course in one go. They'll probably ask you to ferry-glide as well.

If you go through the whole assessment without capsizing, you're likely to pass. If you capsize and roll, the roll will count in your favour.

If you swim, that does not automatically fail you, but you wll be expected to self-rescue. Try to avoid swimming multiple time though :)

I can recommend Lee Valley's paddlesports courses (https://www.better.org.uk/leisure-centr ... rt/courses). I did one of these after failing my first assessment. It got me used to the course - difficult to do if you haven't passed the assessment; it's a chicken-and-egg situation - and I learned a lot of useful skills. I passed at the end of the course.

One other thought - the Ethos 9 looks like a big crossover boat that's not ideally suited to the tight turns you need to do to get into and out of eddies. But I may be wrong, I've never paddled one. You used to be able to hire boats from the centre; I'm not sure if you still can. You certainly can hire demo boats from the on-site shop, Above and Below.

Hope that helps.
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Re: LV lake assessments?

Post by Bashy »

Franky wrote:
Mon Aug 28, 2023 11:23 pm
Looking at the Lee Valley booking pages - there is no lake assessment, only a Legacy/Lake assessment. So it sounds as though you will be paddling on the Legacy course.

I took my Legacy assessment back in 2014, so things might have changed since then. But here's what I remember...

The assessors will be looking for basic white water competence. You don't have to style it, but you'll be expected to be able to avoid hitting other paddlers, and to get into and out of a few eddies, rather than bombing down the middle of the course in one go. They'll probably ask you to ferry-glide as well.

If you go through the whole assessment without capsizing, you're likely to pass. If you capsize and roll, the roll will count in your favour.

If you swim, that does not automatically fail you, but you wll be expected to self-rescue. Try to avoid swimming multiple time though :)

I can recommend Lee Valley's paddlesports courses (https://www.better.org.uk/leisure-centr ... rt/courses). I did one of these after failing my first assessment. It got me used to the course - difficult to do if you haven't passed the assessment; it's a chicken-and-egg situation - and I learned a lot of useful skills. I passed at the end of the course.

One other thought - the Ethos 9 looks like a big crossover boat that's not ideally suited to the tight turns you need to do to get into and out of eddies. But I may be wrong, I've never paddled one. You used to be able to hire boats from the centre; I'm not sure if you still can. You certainly can hire demo boats from the on-site shop, Above and Below.

Hope that helps.
HI, thanks for the reply, this is the email i got back from them when i enquired

To move onto our white water courses you will have to first complete a flat-water assessment to show our instructors that you do know the basics and have the base to move onto our introduction to white water course.

You can book a Lake assessment online at a date suitable to you, once you pass that you can book onto our introduction to white water course from there.


From that email i assumed that the assessment was just lake, i think (i may be wrong) that when booking the Legacy/Lake they are booked using that single item but are unique bookings. i.e. you are either doing Lake or Legacy but never both and i am assuming that when you get there, you will be asked which one are you being assessed for.

Its a big assumption I know but I certainly wasnt expecting to touch the Legacy without any coaching else i might as well just leave the kayak at the top and swim from the get go lol

Depending on the outcome of the assessment will depend on which course i need to take, Flat or WW, just hoping its WW as i am a competent flatwater paddler.

You might be right about the Ethos 9, but it will turn on a dime when told but, that is on the flat, its also pain keeping on track (i dont use the skeg) so some work is involved, its nothing like my old Perception Mirage lol Ideally i would like to learn in but if an when i hit the WW intro course and it turns out its hindering me then i will hire one of the boats there.

I used to be able to do the roll, had to to get my 3 star back in the day, brings back some memories, that was done in an old Perception Mirage with no outfitting, just a seat :o also, i cant roll now, it was over 30yrs ago mind. I can do a pretty good high brace, up to half a roll :D We are starting pool sessions either September or October, i am hoping to have the roll sorted before the year is out as i know exactly what i should be doing in theory :)
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Re: LV lake assessments?

Post by Franky »

Hi Bashy,

Apologies for my assumptions - I was just going by what I found on the LV web site.

I don't know what a lake-only assessment is like. If you've got your 3-star, even if a long time go, I'd have thought you'd be fine. The lake is very sedate. There is some moving water (Grade 1) in the area at the bottom of the white water courses, which they might ask you to ferry across etc.

It might be an idea to get some practice on a local lake, river or canal if you have these near you, to get back into the swing of it. But it sounds as though you've nothing much to worry about.
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Re: LV lake assessments?

Post by TheEcho »

When I did my Legacy assessment they said that the first couple of minutes were actually the Lake assessment. We were asked to put on spraydecks, capsize and either swim to the side or roll, and once everyone had ticked that off we were told to paddle across the lake to the start of the Legacy course. If anyone had looked like they were unsafe or uncontrolled on flat water they would be failed then and there, but as we were all WW paddlers it was a formality and they let us all go up onto the course for the main event.
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Re: LV lake assessments?

Post by Bashy »

Franky wrote:
Tue Aug 29, 2023 9:25 pm
Hi Bashy,

Apologies for my assumptions - I was just going by what I found on the LV web site.

I don't know what a lake-only assessment is like. If you've got your 3-star, even if a long time go, I'd have thought you'd be fine. The lake is very sedate. There is some moving water (Grade 1) in the area at the bottom of the white water courses, which they might ask you to ferry across etc.

It might be an idea to get some practice on a local lake, river or canal if you have these near you, to get back into the swing of it. But it sounds as though you've nothing much to worry about.
Hi Franky, thanks and sorry for the late reply and no worries,

I have been with a local club over the year and completed the Explorer award, plus practising on my own time too, so at least its knocked some cobwebs out of the old brain lol.
I dont mind some moving water as i like to play in weirs and have done a little eddy practising at the local weir (not great mind lol) and ferrying, plus i like to hit Felixstowe when theres some chop.

I have watched a few FPV videos on the Legacy course, it doesnt look as intimidating as i 1st thought, i reckon i could bomb it and maybe catch the odd eddy (if im lucky) but that would be about it as i have no WW experience but i am a competent swimmer so self rescue isnt an issue.
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Re: LV lake assessments?

Post by Bashy »

TheEcho wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2023 9:43 pm
When I did my Legacy assessment they said that the first couple of minutes were actually the Lake assessment. We were asked to put on spraydecks, capsize and either swim to the side or roll, and once everyone had ticked that off we were told to paddle across the lake to the start of the Legacy course. If anyone had looked like they were unsafe or uncontrolled on flat water they would be failed then and there, but as we were all WW paddlers it was a formality and they let us all go up onto the course for the main event.
Thanks for the reply,

I can easily do those items youve mentioned except for the roll, still trying to relearn that, although, ive not had much practise this year due to lack of assistance, we have pool sessions starting late October so heres hoping :)

From the sounds of it, me travelling 1.4hrs for 10min lake assessment may feel like a total waste of time and fuel, i am thankful its just outside of Sadistic's ULEZ zone lol
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Re: LV lake assessments?

Post by Bashy »

A further query if I may, having watched a good few legacy assessment videos, it appears that the roll is mandatory, do they teach this on the intro to white water, as its only 4 I'm thinking not? Perhaps I'd best get it dialed in before I even think about the intro course...
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Re: LV lake assessments?

Post by Franky »

Bashy wrote:
Sun Sep 03, 2023 11:13 am
A further query if I may, having watched a good few legacy assessment videos, it appears that the roll is mandatory, do they teach this on the intro to white water, as its only 4 I'm thinking not? Perhaps I'd best get it dialed in before I even think about the intro course...
Maybe the roll is mandatory now, I don't know. If I recall correctly, when I took mine, they did ask you to attempt a roll, but if you swam but were otherwise a good paddler, they might let you through.

By all accounts, it did depend on the assessor. Some were stricter than others.

I've dug out a thread that I started in 2014 after failing my first assessment:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=114941

This reminds me that I swam twice on my successful assessment. I think the assessor passed me because she had seen me roll fairly consistently during the paddlesport course, and put it down to nerves.

I don't know whether they teach the roll on the introduction to white water. They might touch upon it. However, successful rolling would require a dedicated 4-week course in itself, and even then it takes most people a lot of subsequent practice to get it totally dialled in.

That said, if you could roll 30 years ago, the muscle memory is probably in there somewhere, and it should in theory be quicker to relearn it than to start from scratch.
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Re: LV lake assessments?

Post by Bashy »

Franky wrote:
Mon Sep 04, 2023 12:42 pm
Bashy wrote:
Sun Sep 03, 2023 11:13 am
A further query if I may, having watched a good few legacy assessment videos, it appears that the roll is mandatory, do they teach this on the intro to white water, as its only 4 I'm thinking not? Perhaps I'd best get it dialed in before I even think about the intro course...
Maybe the roll is mandatory now, I don't know. If I recall correctly, when I took mine, they did ask you to attempt a roll, but if you swam but were otherwise a good paddler, they might let you through.

By all accounts, it did depend on the assessor. Some were stricter than others.

I've dug out a thread that I started in 2014 after failing my first assessment:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=114941

This reminds me that I swam twice on my successful assessment. I think the assessor passed me because she had seen me roll fairly consistently during the paddlesport course, and put it down to nerves.

I don't know whether they teach the roll on the introduction to white water. They might touch upon it. However, successful rolling would require a dedicated 4-week course in itself, and even then it takes most people a lot of subsequent practice to get it totally dialled in.

That said, if you could roll 30 years ago, the muscle memory is probably in there somewhere, and it should in theory be quicker to relearn it than to start from scratch.
Thanks Franky, I have a bad feeling that they may tell me I that I have to take the flat water course 1st,be ashame mind as I be just completed the Explore Award.

I tried the roll again today wearing a mask, gave me more confidence under the water, enough so that I gave it 2 tries in one, alas, I still failed, I didn't hip snap at all, why? I really have no idea lol
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Re: LV lake assessments?

Post by gp.girl »

Absolutely no need to be able to roll to pass the legacy assessment. Doing my kayak one I swam 4 times, couldn't even do a T-rescue and passed! It's more about control, hitting a few eddies and not running anyone over. Wasn't even asked to roll when I did it in a canoe and didn't capsize either. Which is a good thing as I can't roll a canoe....

About half the people passing their Olympic swim as well as roll. I was told I'd passed as I pulled myself out of course to see where my boat had got to. Did roll before the swim though :)

Got a date in mind? Unless you are totally unsafe it's most of an hour on the course for the same money.
I can roll :)
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Re: LV lake assessments?

Post by Bashy »

gp.girl wrote:
Mon Sep 04, 2023 5:37 pm
Absolutely no need to be able to roll to pass the legacy assessment. Doing my kayak one I swam 4 times, couldn't even do a T-rescue and passed! It's more about control, hitting a few eddies and not running anyone over. Wasn't even asked to roll when I did it in a canoe and didn't capsize either. Which is a good thing as I can't roll a canoe....

About half the people passing their Olympic swim as well as roll. I was told I'd passed as I pulled myself out of course to see where my boat had got to. Did roll before the swim though :)

Got a date in mind? Unless you are totally unsafe it's most of an hour on the course for the same money.
Hi, thanks for sharing your experience, by all accounts I'm just doing the lake assessment to see if I'm suitable to do the Intro to White Water course. I doubt I will touch the legacy loop, although, can't rule it out as I am not 100% sure, will find out at 18:30 on Thursday I suppose.

To be fair, I can only just do the high brace, but not had the chance to use it as yet, I do practice it though, each time I hit the water. I would feel l happier if I could roll before I hit the Legacy. The only eddie's I had I go on are the ones at weirs, I live in Norfolk, it's flat, we don't have any white water, so I can't even work in it to get at least some experience.
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Re: LV lake assessments?

Post by andynormancx »

There might not be much in the way of whitewater in Norfolk. But there are some places you can practice crossing eddy lines and ferry gliding.

The mill right in the middle of Thetford has some decent flow with eddies either side.
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Re: LV lake assessments?

Post by Franky »

Bashy wrote:
Mon Sep 04, 2023 6:10 pm
I would feel l happier if I could roll before I hit the Legacy. The only eddie's I had I go on are the ones at weirs, I live in Norfolk, it's flat, we don't have any white water, so I can't even work in it to get at least some experience.
I live in Cambridgeshire, so I was in a similar position to you before I passed the Legacy assessment.

Before that, I'd been on 5 or 6 club trips to Wales and Teesdale over a two-year period - not regular enough to make very quick progress... though enough to make me determined to keep at it, because on every trip I got better.

There was a sluice in Cambridge that our club used to practise on. It was feasting off crumbs, but better than nothing! However, the council decided they weren't happy with the club having a sluice key, and that was that.

Does your club go on any beginners'/improvers' white water weekends in hillier places? You can improve a lot just over a weekend if you're on the water all day. The Lower Tryweryn is a good place to start. But then - so is the LV Legacy course.

If you've got the Explore award, I'd be surprised if LV made you take the flat water paddling course. Hopefully you can get straight onto the white water beginners' course. If you do, there will probably be quite a few people on it who can't roll. You have to start somewhere, so don't stress about it. (Shame the price of LV courses has gone up so much. When I did my first one, it was £60 for 4 weeks - those were the days :\ )
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Re: LV lake assessments?

Post by Bashy »

andynormancx wrote:
Mon Sep 04, 2023 7:35 pm
There might not be much in the way of whitewater in Norfolk. But there are some places you can practice crossing eddy lines and ferry gliding.

The mill right in the middle of Thetford has some decent flow with eddies either side.
HI and thanks, I only learnt of the mill about a month ago, I only go there for Tesco or PaH as a rule, but been over twice since hearing about it and its just been a trickle lol
Brandon Staunch (lock) is about mile from me, thats my go to weir, its only really any good when they lower the left sluice but its still has an eddy to practice in.
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Re: LV lake assessments?

Post by Bashy »

Franky wrote:
Mon Sep 04, 2023 8:13 pm
Bashy wrote:
Mon Sep 04, 2023 6:10 pm
I would feel l happier if I could roll before I hit the Legacy. The only eddie's I had I go on are the ones at weirs, I live in Norfolk, it's flat, we don't have any white water, so I can't even work in it to get at least some experience.
I live in Cambridgeshire, so I was in a similar position to you before I passed the Legacy assessment.

Before that, I'd been on 5 or 6 club trips to Wales and Teesdale over a two-year period - not regular enough to make very quick progress... though enough to make me determined to keep at it, because on every trip I got better.

There was a sluice in Cambridge that our club used to practise on. It was feasting off crumbs, but better than nothing! However, the council decided they weren't happy with the club having a sluice key, and that was that.

Does your club go on any beginners'/improvers' white water weekends in hillier places? You can improve a lot just over a weekend if you're on the water all day. The Lower Tryweryn is a good place to start. But then - so is the LV Legacy course.

If you've got the Explore award, I'd be surprised if LV made you take the flat water paddling course. Hopefully you can get straight onto the white water beginners' course. If you do, there will probably be quite a few people on it who can't roll. You have to start somewhere, so don't stress about it. (Shame the price of LV courses has gone up so much. When I did my first one, it was £60 for 4 weeks - those were the days :\ )
Hi, wow, their own key, stupid council, I bet it was great whilst it lasted though, the one near me is automatic, so probably dependent on excess water above the lock,
The club I'm with use the lower weir at Swanton Morely, sadly that was only really good for the 1st session in April this year, since then it slowed down fast each week so its only really been a trickle, its also dependent on whether they open the gates upstream and i don't think they did, well, they did one test but it wasn't on our night lol, there is still a small flow, enough to get soak the bow when you nose in to surf what little there is, but to be honest, it was only really good for edge control as you move along the wall. When i tried to eddy out it was very lackluster lol

The club did an intro to white water at Matlock in March (the water wasn't fast enough by all accounts), i joined too late, they are doing another one to the river Wharfe in Yorkshire next year sometime, but my main issue is my dogs (recuses from a puppy farm) as i live on my own and i can only leave them with 1 person and shes away 40% of the year, so a few cards have to fall into place for me, hence the idea on doing the course at LV.

Not sure if I've mentioned this already and to be perfectly honest (not that I've lied at all lol), i only joined my local'ish club to learn the roll and had hoped to have dialed that in by now but no one was willing, so i have resigned myself to wait for the pool sessions in October, i want the roll for when i play at Felixstowe but over the year I have wanted to get more and more out of it and the logical next step would be the Intro to WW. All being well I am being anxious about nothing :)
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Re: LV lake assessments?

Post by Bashy »

For your enjoyment, this is what the weir the club plays at has been like 95% of the year, its a short video, one i uploaded just to show and outtake from my high brace practice.



and here's a failed roll from yesterday lol FYI, i totally forgot to hip-snap, I know i raised my head some on the 1st try but the second i kept it low and but there was even less of a start so i bailed :/



One more longer video from Brandon Staunch, it was March or April time and my 1st time with any weir action since the mid 90's, heck, even the boat was new to me, i was used to the Perception Mirage, anyhoo, The sluice was lowered a fair bit and I had been playing for about an hour, ferrying about and trying to surfing a little, this video starts about 5 mins before the end and at the end i decided to call it, headed back over to the side where the slip is and erm, not sure what happened, the only thing i can think of is, i kept the upstream edge up so when i hit the eddy that had a little back flow, it took me over.

The only downside to that place is the concrete walls either side of the sluice, makes me so nervous, even a year in and i will keep away from the walls even now when the flow is minimal.

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Re: LV lake assessments?

Post by Chris Bolton »

I thought the high brace was deprecated. It can result in shoulder dislocation and so far as I know doesn't have any advantage over a low brace, particularly if using an active blade. I can't remember the last time I did a high brace.
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Re: LV lake assessments?

Post by andynormancx »

Bashy wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2023 5:52 am
andynormancx wrote:
Mon Sep 04, 2023 7:35 pm
The mill right in the middle of Thetford has some decent flow with eddies either side.
HI and thanks, I only learnt of the mill about a month ago, I only go there for Tesco or PaH as a rule, but been over twice since hearing about it and its just been a trickle lol
August probably isn't the best month ;)

It will get better.
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Re: LV lake assessments?

Post by Bashy »

Chris Bolton wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2023 7:26 am
I thought the high brace was deprecated. It can result in shoulder dislocation and so far as I know doesn't have any advantage over a low brace, particularly if using an active blade. I can't remember the last time I did a high brace.
Hi, no not deprecated, just altered so you're not over reaching of which can lead to injury,
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Re: LV lake assessments?

Post by Bashy »

andynormancx wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2023 8:47 am
Bashy wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2023 5:52 am
andynormancx wrote:
Mon Sep 04, 2023 7:35 pm
The mill right in the middle of Thetford has some decent flow with eddies either side.
HI and thanks, I only learnt of the mill about a month ago, I only go there for Tesco or PaH as a rule, but been over twice since hearing about it and its just been a trickle lol
August probably isn't the best month ;)

It will get better.
Yeah, without a doubt :)
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Re: LV lake assessments?

Post by Franky »

Chris Bolton wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2023 7:26 am
I thought the high brace was deprecated. It can result in shoulder dislocation and so far as I know doesn't have any advantage over a low brace, particularly if using an active blade. I can't remember the last time I did a high brace.
I was taught that you shouldn't use the high brace, and yet I've never been able to use a low brace under pressure. If you start to capsize on white water, moving your arms into position for a low brace takes half a second that, usually, you don't have. I see very few WW paddlers using low braces.

When I say I use high braces - I mean that I use the concave side of my blade to restore my balance. I try to keep my elbows bent and, if possible, below my shoulders. But I don't think that counts as a low brace since I'm not pushing with the reverse side of the blade.

There are any number of white water moves that run some risk of shoulder injury - rolling for one.

A slight digression... I also see many paddlers reach right across their torso with the top arm when doing draws and rudders. I used to do this, but my shoulders started hurting. Somebody told me there was no risk of dislocation from this move, but from my experience, there is certainly a risk of pulling a muscle or tendon. It does allow for very precise control, but I had to abandon it and fall back on less elegant methods. (Maybe it depends on body shape - if you have narrow shoulders and long arms, there is going to be much less strain on the shoulder.)

In my playboat, I sometimes use low braces, but that's more for boat control than to stop capsizing. In bigger boats, a low brace doesn't give me enough purchase on the water to control the boat's direction.
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Re: LV lake assessments?

Post by Bashy »

Franky wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2023 9:45 am
Chris Bolton wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2023 7:26 am
I thought the high brace was deprecated. It can result in shoulder dislocation and so far as I know doesn't have any advantage over a low brace, particularly if using an active blade. I can't remember the last time I did a high brace.
I was taught that you shouldn't use the high brace, and yet I've never been able to use a low brace under pressure. If you start to capsize on white water, moving your arms into position for a low brace takes half a second that, usually, you don't have. I see very few WW paddlers using low braces.

When I say I use high braces - I mean that I use the concave side of my blade to restore my balance. I try to keep my elbows bent and, if possible, below my shoulders. But I don't think that counts as a low brace since I'm not pushing with the reverse side of the blade.

There are any number of white water moves that run some risk of shoulder injury - rolling for one.

A slight digression... I also see many paddlers reach right across their torso with the top arm when doing draws and rudders. I used to do this, but my shoulders started hurting. Somebody told me there was no risk of dislocation from this move, but from my experience, there is certainly a risk of pulling a muscle or tendon. It does allow for very precise control, but I had to abandon it and fall back on less elegant methods. (Maybe it depends on body shape - if you have narrow shoulders and long arms, there is going to be much less strain on the shoulder.)

In my playboat, I sometimes use low braces, but that's more for boat control than to stop capsizing. In bigger boats, a low brace doesn't give me enough purchase on the water to control the boat's direction.
From what I can work out, the difference between high and low brace is using the power face for high brace to give a bit more power, this will normally occur when either the low brace fails or you've reached the tipping point where the low brace will have little effect. That's my take on it, I could be wrong...

I know I am still over reaching with the high brace as evidence shows above and I am yet to use it in a combat situation, although I did show I can do it on the move, hardly moving mind lol
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Re: LV lake assessments?

Post by andynormancx »

Bashy wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2023 10:49 am
From what I can work out, the difference between high and low brace is using the power face for high brace to give a bit more power, this will normally occur when either the low brace fails or you've reached the tipping point where the low brace will have little effect. That's my take on it, I could be wrong...
The key difference is whether your forearms are turned to point downwards (low brace) or upwards (high brace). That in turn translates into using the backside of the blade for a low brace and the power side for a high brace.

But unfortunately many, many people can't do a high brace and reliably keep their hands out in front of them to protect their shoulders. I'd say at least 60% of the people I see doing high braces quickly end up with their outside hand drifting to be level with or behind their shoulder.

Which is when the shoulder injuries start (not just dislocations, if fact I've not see a dislocation, just lots of other shoulder injuries). When people are young they can easily get away with it, throwing they hands back beyond their shoulders with wild abandon.

But once people get to 35 and above high bracing poorly leads to very easy shoulder injuries that take six months or more to fully heal (with physio).

You can also get away with in dozens of times and then suddenly get unlucky and end up with an injury.

Keep those hands out in front of you if you don't want to be forced to take months off of paddling. Which is of course easier said than done.

<pats currently uninjured shoulder, carefully>

All of this applies equally to rolling of course.
Bashy
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Re: LV lake assessments?

Post by Bashy »

andynormancx wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2023 11:38 am
Bashy wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2023 10:49 am
From what I can work out, the difference between high and low brace is using the power face for high brace to give a bit more power, this will normally occur when either the low brace fails or you've reached the tipping point where the low brace will have little effect. That's my take on it, I could be wrong...
The key difference is whether your forearms are turned to point downwards (low brace) or upwards (high brace). That in turn translates into using the backside of the blade for a low brace and the power side for a high brace.

But unfortunately many, many people can't do a high brace and reliably keep their hands out in front of them to protect their shoulders. I'd say at least 60% of the people I see doing high braces quickly end up with their outside hand drifting to be level with or behind their shoulder.

Which is when the shoulder injuries start (not just dislocations, if fact I've not see a dislocation, just lots of other shoulder injuries). When people are young they can easily get away with it, throwing they hands back beyond their shoulders with wild abandon.

But once people get to 35 and above high bracing poorly leads to very easy shoulder injuries that take six months or more to fully heal (with physio).

You can also get away with in dozens of times and then suddenly get unlucky and end up with an injury.

Keep those hands out in front of you if you don't want to be forced to take months off of paddling. Which is of course easier said than done.

<pats currently uninjured shoulder, carefully>

All of this applies equally to rolling of course.
Hi and thanks, I start off with my arms straight out but i end up with it trailing and i finish up doing the end of a back deck roll lol
I think my roll will end up being a cross between a sweep and a back deck job, will have to see how it progresses under tuition lol

I did end up hurting my left wrist tendons a couple of months back, i was practising the braces, all was well, about 30 mins later my wrist
had swallow and the tendons were grating, self diagnosed as Intersection Syndrome, so i took anti inflam tablets i already had and the cortisone cream
It lasted about 3 weeks, not sure if it was just doing too much and over stretching or if i hurt it loading and unloading the kayak, i will say it was
the former, i over did it, it was quite painful but it didn't stop me going kayaking as the brace helped a lot and I treated myself to a new bent werber Surge
in the hopes that it will help mitigate it in the future. So i know a little about poor skills lol
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Re: LV lake assessments?

Post by Bashy »

Turns out that i was anxious about nothing with regards to the LV Lake Assessment, i may not have mentioned that i was ;) turns out the Lake Assessment is just a paddle to the buoy (20m at most) and a self-rescue (tip and eject) and swim with ya boat back to the bank (steps). Although i could have gone on the Legacy but having no WW experience to talk of i thought it best i didnt.

Anyway, I have wanted to roll since last year (i did it "once" 30 years ago for my 3 star), I tried it 8 times last year at Felixtsowe and failed, and tried it twice this year (river) and failed and i have watched about a hundred rolling videos, so i asked if i could try the roll prior to self-rescue, i thought i might as well get the practice in, plus it was very warm water, low and behold, i blooming rolled (sweep), 1st attempt, he said i didn't need to self recuse so i didn't get wet, well chuffed :) my main reason for failing was the hip snap, i just blanked under when upside down and forgot to do the hip snap, so i kept telling myself, hip snap, over and over, i didnt think about anything else other than that :D
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Re: LV lake assessments?

Post by Franky »

After watching your video from the sluice the other day, I didn't think you had much to worry about. Good news re. the roll.

If you want to do a white water course at LV, I'd recommend booking it now, before winter comes. It's nicer to learn in warmish water!
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Re: LV lake assessments?

Post by Bashy »

Franky wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2023 12:40 pm
After watching your video from the sluice the other day, I didn't think you had much to worry about. Good news re. the roll.

If you want to do a white water course at LV, I'd recommend booking it now, before winter comes. It's nicer to learn in warmish water!
Thanks, Franky, I couldnt believe how warm that water is at present, i really didnt expect that lol.

When looking at the bookings, i can find all other courses but the Intro to WW on there, it was there the week, but no longer there, not even to say fully booked. Oh wait, i just ticked the show booked and its there 28th and 30th of September, so obviously they dont allow you to book untill those courses have passed perhaps.
I have emailed them (last night) and awaiting a reply back, strange that its just missing now.
I also found that its about £30 in diesel for my V70 2.4 :o so i have to factor that in so thats about another £120 and then prob another 80 if i need to hire a boat, im hoping my Ethos 9 will be up to the challenge, no reason it shoulnt be, its got a nice flat bottom, but it just might be the wrong boat to learn WW in, will soon see. Oh, and they the canoe slalom WC on very soon (19th til the 24th) so that doesnt help my cause, so rude and inconsiderate lol.
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Re: LV lake assessments?

Post by Franky »

Oh well, looks like you'll have to wait for an introduction to WW course.

No reason you can't do it in autumn or winter - after all, in the UK, winter is the white water season. It's just that capsizing is a little less "fun" in cold water :)
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Re: LV lake assessments?

Post by Bashy »

Franky wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2023 11:03 pm
Oh well, looks like you'll have to wait for an introduction to WW course.

No reason you can't do it in autumn or winter - after all, in the UK, winter is the white water season. It's just that capsizing is a little less "fun" in cold water :)
There is that, plus, you can wear your dry suit lol
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