Clothing leakage

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Bashy
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Clothing leakage

Post by Bashy »

Hi folks

I have the Palm Surge or Peak Combi (shortie) and Peak Storm pants and i wear them in this order, trousers, as high as they can go (inner) - cag (inner), trousers (outer), spray deck, cag (outer). all are new this year (early summer), there's no leaking from any seams, material or gaskets. I get some water ingress through the waist, not much but enough to make it damp in there.

For the price of these items i didn't expect to get damp, the trousers alleged 10m waterproofing, now whilst i know there's no way on earth i could dive in them (lol) to 10m, i did expect them to keep me dry inside else calling them "dry" is misleading.

Is it my clothing setup that's the issue? should i keep the spray deck tube below the top of the trouser velcro area as thats what i am doing at present? see image, please. Also the inner trouser tube is up near the breast area, the back of the spray deck tube is a fair bit higher than the front as the back of the trousers go a fair bit higher than the front but still keeping the top of the spray deck tube a fraction below the mark shown in the image.

Any tips that may improve water tightness, please?

Image
PlymouthDamo
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Re: Clothing leakage

Post by PlymouthDamo »

Bashy wrote:
Thu Jul 20, 2023 3:17 am

Any tips that may improve water tightness, please?
Many years ago, I bought the very expensive Kokatat Whirlpool bibs and cag. These have a 'roll together' system, so that your cags and trousers are joined by rolling two flaps together, a bit like how you roll together the neck of a drybag. It didn't work, despite Kokatat's advertising claiming it would work like a drysuit. I tried to improve the koktat system by replacing their elasticated flaps with longer smooth ones, so that they would roll together more cleanly, but this still didn't work - when I did test swims with it, it kept the water out for a few seconds more, but then it came flooding in.

So basically, you're never going to get a drysuit seal with a 2-part system, unless you go for one of the very expensive zip-together systems, but then you're paying more than for a drysuit so there's no point.

If you're not swimming, then a 2-part system might prevent, or limit, water getting inside your trousers/cag from inside the cockpit, but there's no guarantee of this - I found the water would eventually find its way through to me if I was doing a lot of capsizing and rolling. I did think about getting one of those 'cag decks' which might keep you dry providing you've got excellent wrist/neck seals as well as a perfect seal between the deck and the boat. And the only 100% dry seal between a boat and my spraydeck has been with an ocean cockpit, and I don't think you'll find one of these in a white water boat.
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Poke
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Re: Clothing leakage

Post by Poke »

You don't actually state where it is getting damp?
You seem convinced that water isn't coming in via the waist?
So that leaves via the material, or via the other gaskets.
I've always found shortie cags to be fairly leaky. Firstly because if you tense your bicep, you can end up with gaps (just like you do with wrist gaskets if you tense your tendons in your hand) but the seal is closer to your body so more water can get into the body section.
First step if you want to stay dry would be to ditch the shorty (though I don't know why you'd wear a shorty cag and dry trousers - for me if its warm enough for a shorty cag, I'm in shorts)!

As per the other comment on here, you'll never get a 100% dry seal between cag and trousers at the waist. I'm a big advocate of the bib-trouser / cag set up you have here, rather than a dry suit. Provides good flexibiltiy when travelling abroad... but also because even drysuits get leaky after a little while, which is even harder on the wallet than the separates.

Final leak path is via the material/seams. Turn them inside out and look for delamination / seams that haven't been taped. Can't see it being this given they've only been used a handful of times. If it is then I'm sure Peak or Palm would gladly repair/replace under warranty. If there is nothing obvious and it is really bugging you, turn the trousers inside out, hang them up and fill them with water. Should see if any water is getting through like that.

The other source of water is yourself. If you can't pinpoint where the damp is coming in, it might well just be sweat. "But my kit is breathable" I hear you say. Well, yes, but if it is covered in water (which it normally is when you're boating), then there is nowhere for the sweat to breathe out to!

Hope some of that is of assistance!

Note though no "dry" kit I've found has ever been truly dry after a few months of use.
My general take on it is "kayaking is a watersport, expect to get a bit wet"! Probably not the answer you were looking for mind!
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Chris Bolton
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Re: Clothing leakage

Post by Chris Bolton »

I agree with the posters above that a two piece will never seal completely. I'm assuming that you're getting damp while paddling, not swimming; what kind of paddling? How deeply into the white water are you, eg, hitting big stoppers hard, submerging after big drops, rolling etc? Water will find its way through anything but a drysuit.You might try fully interlocking the trousers and cag, with the spraydeck over the cag entirely. You may then get slightly more water in the boat, but perhaps less inside your clothing, try it and see.
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Re: Clothing leakage

Post by ike »

You’ve got 5 layers of material plus the foam of your PFD wrapped around your core, plus whatever baselayer you’re wearing. Sorry but no amount of manufacturer advertising will convince me that there’s any meaningful breathability left with that setup. Damp baselayer from sweat is inevitable if you’re doing anything vigorous.
Simon Wyndham
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Re: Clothing leakage

Post by Simon Wyndham »

Chances are, with all those layers at this time of year, it's sweat and condensation. Shorty cags, as others have said here, are usually not that dry anyway. If you're swimming a lot then separates will usually have some leakage.
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Re: Clothing leakage

Post by Bashy »

Hi folks, sincerest apologies, i didnt get a notification email for the replies...

Sorry, i should have been a little clearer, I deffo get sweat damp through paddling.
I am referring to swimming and from what i understand from the above, i should have expected to get some leakage.

To be fair, the 1st time i took a swim, i was in there for about 5 mins or more having to fight a small back current and get the boat to the side and i was completely dry.
Subsequent swims, its ranged from a little damp to full-on soaked, half a sock of water in my left foot.

I think the wetness varies due to how i am positioned in the water, the 1st time i think i was mostly legs up, the rest were legs down for the most part.

Hindsight, from what I've just spent this year, i could have bought a new Peak PS white water suit, or at the very least a decent used one :(

Thanks for all your replies, very much appreciated and again, my apologies.

PS, so the spraydeck, as per the image above, should it be slightly below the trouser tube and can it go right up past it?
If it has to stay below then it means i get some pooling as the deck drops a littlest the waist
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Re: Clothing leakage

Post by Franky »

If you're swimming in anything other than a dry suit, you will get wet. You can't change the laws of physics. Water goes through holes.

For kayaking trousers to be watertight during a swim, they'd need a huge latex waist tube so tight that you wouldn't be able to paddle, or probably even to breathe!

Even in a dry suit, water gets in through the neck and wrist seals, but most paddlers are happy taking "dry" to mean "slightly damp at the edges" :)

To be fair to Peak, their web page for Storm pants doesn't use the word "dry" anywhere. In think in the old days companies marketed cags with latex seals as "dry cags" but it was understood that this meant "dry as long as you don't capsize". Now that paddling is more popular, manufacturers have to be more careful with their wording because less is taken as understood.
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Re: Clothing leakage

Post by Bashy »

Franky wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2023 4:16 pm
If you're swimming in anything other than a dry suit, you will get wet. You can't change the laws of physics. Water goes through holes.

For kayaking trousers to be watertight during a swim, they'd need a huge latex waist tube so tight that you wouldn't be able to paddle, or probably even to breathe!

Even in a dry suit, water gets in through the neck and wrist seals, but most paddlers are happy taking "dry" to mean "slightly damp at the edges" :)

To be fair to Peak, their web page for Storm pants doesn't use the word "dry" anywhere. In think in the old days companies marketed cags with latex seals as "dry cags" but it was understood that this meant "dry as long as you don't capsize". Now that paddling is more popular, manufacturers have to be more careful with their wording because less is taken as understood.
Hi, if you google peak storm pants, its right there in the meta information...

Legwear - Storm Pants X2.5 | Canoe & Kayak

Peak UK
https://peakuk.com › product
Peak storm pants from peakuk.com
The Storm Pant is our best selling dry trouser and is used by all paddlers from whitewater, sea kayak, open canoe and more. Tough, comfortable and high ...
£225.00

And if you go into the legwear section, its in the description at the top...

"Waterproof and breathable legwear designed specifically for kayaking and canoeing. Semi or full dry pants available in men's and women's versions, constructed using the finest quality components and materials."

Also just about all sites list them under the menu heading, Dry Trousers.

When someone like myself comes along that's just starting back up after 30+ years (never wore anything by tracky bottoms back then) and I am after the correct clothing and search for something suitable and just about every site if not all that I have come across calls them dry trousers, and even says waterproof up to 10m, it's really quite misleading, especially when one would be thinking that 10m wouldn't actually mean whilst sitting in the kayak as how wet would one get using a dry cag and spray deck (remember, I'm new to proper clothing), I have the Evo Combi - waterproof to 20m and the Palm Surge, I can't remember if that said a depth, actually, thinking about it, the 1st time I took a swim and stayed dry, I was wearing the Storm Pants x3 and Palm Surge, the last time i took a swim was during training and i wore the Palm Surge again and I got slightly wet, but I cannot remember how I had the spray deck tube positioned of which is the actual reason for the thread.
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Re: Clothing leakage

Post by Chris Bolton »

When they give the waterproofing as 10m an 20m, it's a measure of the porosity of the fabric itself, not the whole garment.
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Re: Clothing leakage

Post by Bashy »

Chris Bolton wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2023 7:53 am
When they give the waterproofing as 10m an 20m, it's a measure of the porosity of the fabric itself, not the whole garment.
Thanks, but as I said, it's quite misleading for the uninitiated.

And I'm still none the wiser as to where to position the top of the spray deck tube, should it be over the top of the outer trouser top or below it?
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Re: Clothing leakage

Post by Chris Bolton »

it's quite misleading for the uninitiated
That's why I explained it for you. I can't be responsible for what Peak say.
I did suggest above:
You might try fully interlocking the trousers and cag, with the spraydeck over the cag entirely.
You received various answers because it wasn't clear whether the problem was while paddling or while swimming. If the problem is when swimming, I would put the cag over the trousers, and the spraydeck over the cag. The trouser top should be under the cag, so where the spraydeck is in relation to it isn't significant. If it fits with where the deck should align on the boat, putting the spraydeck tube over the join where the cag overlaps the trousers might help.
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Re: Clothing leakage

Post by Poke »

Chris Bolton wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2023 11:15 am
You might try fully interlocking the trousers and cag, with the spraydeck over the cag entirely.
Whilst this may help whilst swimming, this would leak like crazy when you're actually kayaking though. Any water that ends up on your cag can then drop straight into the boat!?
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Re: Clothing leakage

Post by Bashy »

Thanks for the replies guys, if there is one thing this WS Ethos 9 doesn't like it's water inside, it becomes pretty unstable even with a small amount (inch or so deep).

As i had already spent a small fortune on outer clothing and then the paddle, so sadly a decent dry suit was out of my grasp but there was Ali Express :) so I took a punt and got one for under £180. I will do another post on that lol
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