New access charge for the Dee???

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Jim
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Re: New access charge for the Dee???

Post by Jim » Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:11 am

Quite apart from the sign about parking charges there is a huge billboard that suggests you are entering a rafting centre or similar - difficult to see approaching from town but so is the entrance, as soon as you start turning in you will see it. Very visible if you are driving from Horseshoe falls direction

The "we didn't know" argument is really very very weak in this case.

For thise airing an opinion that clearly have never been, the entrance and gate is at the top of quite a steep hill with a driveway running parallel to the main road to a parking area at the bottom of the hill leading back towards the mill, which since a fire a few year ago mostly appears derelict. The toilets are on the end of the mill next to the car park. To get to the cafe you have to walk along the path on the river side of the mill and up a couple of steps. The cafe has no windows onto the car park or driveway or toilets and is in diagonally the opposite corner of the building from the entrance to the site. It usually staffed by just one person.

Quite clearly a number of paddlers exploit the difficulty in managing the site - whether the OP (and group) are amongst them or were genuinely unaware/surprised is not for me to guess, but the fact is that people do deliberately abuse the fact that it is very difficult for the cafe proprietor to oversee the parking area and make sure people are coming in to pay their fees. It is quite unnacceptable that some members of the boating community have taken to giving her abuse when she does manage to get out of the cafe and check the car park, but I understand this is happening quite regularly - again it may not have been the OP, she may have already been abused by other groups that day and lost her charm by the time the OPs group came along.

As I have said before, it is not a site I would normally have used as access or egress in the past, to me it is in the middle of the obvious trip, but more recently I have started to go there, sometimes only paddling at the site and I do think it is a useful resourse rather than simply an access point or car park.
What would make it even better for me is if it could have permanent slalom gates again like in the old days (when I used to sometiems stop and play in the gates in the middle of a trip through), but I guess most of the site users aren't interested in that, and there certainly isn't likely to be any money available to do it.

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Re: New access charge for the Dee???

Post by John K » Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:24 am

BoofandSwim wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:37 am
I'm concerned because the OP made an innocent mistake and came on these forums to seek clarity from the paddling community. I believe they did so in good faith that people's responses would be reasonable and respectful.

Instead, they were met with dismissive derisions and general hostility. In my view, this is not what these forums should be about.
I think clarity was achieved pretty quickly. The thread seemed to go downhill when you joined in though :)
Further, and rather crucially, there is still a fundamental unwillingness by certain members here to engage with the OP's experience. The land owner's alleged behaviour was appalling, and it's highly concerning how unwilling certain members, including you, have been to condemn it.

I mean, for crying out loud, the land owner allegedly sprung a charge on a group of people who hadn't actually used the facilities and then threatened to lock them in if they didn't pay money they didn't owe. That's not a case of "could have been handled better"; it's a case of "Let's get to the bottom of this and, if true, let's ensure appropriate measures are taken to promote reconciliation so we can all get along smoothly and peacefully in future".
According to the OP a group of 11 people used the site as their get out: "We paddled the river and got out at the cafe". There is a charge for that which they refused to pay because they felt they didn't need to.
This language of "stop moaning", "leechers", and the gaslighting "there's a grand total of two of you" falls well below the standards of a community I'm ordinarily proud to be a part of.
Gaslighting? You said "I wonder why so many people are posting here about adverse experiences". I see posts from you and the OP. Unless I've missed something that's two people. Maybe you'd like to check back on what you and the OP have posted and see if it comes up to the standards you'd expect? You're coming across as pretty aggressive.

So in summary:

There is a charge of £3 per person per day for anyone getting on or off the river here, you need to pay in the cafe before paddling. There is no extra charge for parking or using the other facilities. Most people know the score, but there's new signage going up soon to make it even clearer. Sorry the OP had a bad experience, sorry the the site operator has to deal with people refusing to pay.

I know it's not quite what you want, but how's that for a compromise?

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Re: New access charge for the Dee???

Post by Jim » Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:23 pm

I can't work out how to copy/link facebook content here, but there is a photo of the apparently invisible sign on facebook (taken at night yet I don't have any trouble seeing it in the photo). Apparently the sign has been in place for 3 years.

Apparently it is going to be moved onto the gate to make it even more obvious, since the gate will now remain locked and you will have to call the office (No. on sign) to get in or out.

For those quibbling about the details the sign says:
Monday - Friday 0900 - 1700
Saturday and Sunday 0830-1700
All visitors to the site must sign in at the office
Cost for using the site is £3 per person

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Re: New access charge for the Dee???

Post by John K » Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:37 pm

Image

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Re: New access charge for the Dee???

Post by BoofandSwim » Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:56 pm

John K wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:24 am
The thread seemed to go downhill when you joined in though :)... how's that for a compromise?
The path to compromise only begins with belligerent insults if you are Donald Trump and Kim Jong-un. Otherwise, it's a guaranteed way for things to end in bitter disagreement - something of which I'm sure you were aware when you wrote that.
John K wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:24 am
I think clarity was achieved pretty quickly.
Your narcisism is making you irrational. You cannot draw outright equivalence between you spouting your opinions and clarity being achieved, which leads me to my next point...
John K wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:24 am
Unless I've missed something that's two people.
You did miss something. There are two threads on these forums, posted within hours of each other, full of confused people. Some are confused whether there is a fee, others about what the fee is for, and still others about whether the fee is even legal (of course, if there is appropriate signage, then it is). This is hardly the hallmark of a perfectly-functioning system. Trying to convince me that only two people have had issues is gaslighting.

Ultimately, you are clearly unwilling to engage objectively with the two core issues here. The first is the OP's experience, and the second is the way the OP was treated when they came to these forums seeking help from the community.

This could of course go back-and-forth for a while, but I don't think that would serve any constructive purpose. You are inextricably entwined with your ego and your intransigence in a way that precludes healthy debate.

I can only encourage you to engage in self-reflection in the hope that you see there are far more respectful, healthy, and constructive ways to engage with others than you have demonstrated in this discussion.

Good luck with your future endeavours, John.

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Re: New access charge for the Dee???

Post by John K » Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:06 pm

I like you. You’re funny. We should go paddling together sometime :)

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Re: New access charge for the Dee???

Post by jmmoxon » Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:20 pm

Between the two threads there are two people who questioned the charge having been caught out (who may have been in the same group), two others who questioned it, but apparently haven't been there recently. Rest either knew there was a charge, but weren't necessarily clear what it was for, or were unaware of it. Majority of answers are civil if you look back through the threads, until certain people got belligerent because others were disagreeing with them...
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Re: New access charge for the Dee???

Post by DaveBland » Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:38 pm

BoofandSwim wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:37 am
I believe they did so in good faith that people's responses would be reasonable and respectful.
Now your last post above was well argued and reasoned. But to be fair your others before were less so. So while yes, you have a good point, it's a bit rich suddenly taking the high ground on posting style after your earlier posts on this topic.

The whloe thing seems a little bezzare to me. On one side, crap signage and probably [we don't know, we weren't there] a bit of a shitty attitude.
On the other side, a facility operator who is probably under the financial gun a bit and racked off with paddlers who they are trying to service, taking the piss.
Sounds like the OP got the brunt of some frustrations there.

Ultimately, 3 quid each? Who cares?
dave

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Re: New access charge for the Dee???

Post by Chalky723 » Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:50 pm

BoofandSwim wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:56 pm
Your narcisism is making you irrational. You cannot draw outright equivalence between you spouting your opinions and clarity being achieved, which leads me to my next point...
John's a better person than me, I'd have just told you to fuck off....

;-)

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Re: New access charge for the Dee???

Post by Jim » Mon Nov 26, 2018 3:15 pm

Hmm, page 2 and we have swear words already, I wonder if we will get to page 3 before Godwins law takes over?

(I'm not optimistic)

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Re: New access charge for the Dee???

Post by Adrian Cooper » Mon Nov 26, 2018 3:50 pm

Unless explicitly stated otherwise, all members of the public can enter/exit the car park using the implied right of access. The 'land owner' has the right to withdraw the implied right of access, but must do so clearly and in advance.
I might be a bit rusty, but I think I know a little about land law. So, just to be clear, the second point is sort of correct, a landowner or tenant may withdraw an implied right of access at any time, unless payment has been accepted. However, you must assume that there is no right to enter without permission, you cannot assume an implied right and certainly 'unless explicitly stated otherwise' is not correct (I am not allowed to walk into your living room without your specific exclusion although, if you have a sign giving access charges, I might reasonably expect to be able to provided I pay for the enormous privilege).

As to charges, you might think that per person is the wrong way to charge for parking, this is irrelevant. If someone wants to charge and advertises the rates beforehand, they must stick to those rates (in law these are described as 'invitations to treat' and are covered by consumer law as they are for goods in shops. But a landowner does not have to have a scale of charges; the law will prevent one from making discriminatory charges to individuals based on eg sex, sexual orientation, race, religion, etc., but you are perfectly able to discriminate on other grounds like 'the cut of your jib', your ability to pay, offering lower rates to students, children, pensioners (even though this could be translated as charging higher rates to people falling outside of those categories), and maybe even people who look like they can afford to pay more. Such prices all to be negotiated on an individual basis.

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Re: New access charge for the Dee???

Post by Adrian Cooper » Mon Nov 26, 2018 3:51 pm

Sorry, should have said 'gender'.

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Re: New access charge for the Dee???

Post by BoofandSwim » Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:00 pm

Adrian Cooper wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 3:50 pm
I am not allowed to walk into your living room without...
A living room is different because there is no implied right of access.

To my knowledge, access to car parks is implicit by their nature (unless stated otherwise). Actually parking there is a slightly different matter and I'm not sure where the law would stand on this if there were no signs withdrawing access or stating parking fees.

Of course, it's good practice to ensure that you have permission to park somewhere anyway, and if someone is allowing you to park somewhere out of generosity/hospitality, then it's surely reasonable to return the favour with custom or another appropriate form of remuneration.

What isn't reasonable is extortion, threats, and abuse towards those who have allegedly been extorted and threatened.

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Re: New access charge for the Dee???

Post by Chris Bolton » Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:41 pm

I suspect there may be misunderstandings by both parties; the OP not being aware of the facility charge and the owner/tenant of Mile End Mill, being aware of a number of paddlers who do know that should pay but don't, being unnecessarily forceful with people were not aware. But I'd like to go back to something in the first post, just as clarification.

The OP wrote:
Any paddler worth their BA understands that the Tryweryn is a managed river and so an access charge is perfectly reasonable, the Dee most certainly is not managed and I'm completely unaware of any access agreement specific to mile end mill regarding access to the Dee.
This is another misunderstanding (and the situation has been controversial, I'm not being critical). The charge for the Tryweryn is a facility charge, for use of the land to get to the water and the toilets, changing rooms, parking, etc. It's not a charge for using the river, and the fact that it's a managed river isn't relevant (the Dee is also managed, so far as flow is concerned). The only difference in concept between the facility charges at MEM and at Trywern is that there's nowhere upstream of the Tryweryn centre where there is access across land to reach the river, so Tryweryn users have no option but to pay, while Dee users have the option not to use MEM facilities.

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Re: New access charge for the Dee???

Post by Dave Manby » Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:28 pm

Chris Bolton wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:39 pm
So far as I know there's been a charge for launching/landing at Mile end for 20 years, but they don't charge people who paddle through the site without using any of the facilities they have created. Did the person asking for the charge specifically say it was for parking, or might it have been for using the facility?

If I parked in a cafe car park to go paddling, even if I was using the cafe I'd ask them if it was OK to leave a car.
There is no charge for launching nor is there a charge for parking for various legal and technical reasons, so there is a charge for using the facilities it is a bit convoluted for what is basically a charge for leaving your car on a piece of ground!

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Re: New access charge for the Dee???

Post by Adrian Cooper » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:39 am

BoofandSwim wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:00 pm
To my knowledge, access to car parks is implicit by their nature (unless stated otherwise).
I would be interested to understand your legal basis for this.

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Re: New access charge for the Dee???

Post by TinyPaddler » Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:36 am

Thank you to those that have managed to put aside my childish decision to not pay and run away and look into what caused this unfortunate series of events, ultimately seeking to prevent this from happening again.

What coursed this issue was that I had not seen a sign stating a charge before I parked and so it seemed like it had been brought out of nowhere and at the time seemed unreasonable. However a friend of mine has since sent me a picture of the sign at the entrance to the car park that does in fact state the cost of using the site. Therefore my claim of "there's no sign" is incorrect and I have been taking steps to get in contact with the cafe owners to arrange for me to pay what I owe and apologise face to face. Whilst we didn't use the facilities, by parking in the car park, having seen the signs or not, we entered an agreement for using the site for a stated price and therefore it would be immoral for me to not try and put things right.

I'd like to thank everyone that took part in this discussion, even those that were rather blunt. My mistake was a simple one and all that was necessary to put me right was to point out why I was wrong. I accept I was wrong and I will do everything I can to make up for it.

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Re: New access charge for the Dee???

Post by Chris Bolton » Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:35 am

Thanks for that post, Tinypaddler. Another possible clarification: you say you didn't use the facilities, but in my understanding the use of the site to get to and from the water is one of the main 'facilities' that the charge relates to. While most paddlers now believe there is a public right of navigation along rivers, there's no legal basis at all for a right to cross land to reach the river unless there's a public footpath or other right of way. If, for reasons of convenience or necessity, we want to put in or take out on private land, we should expect that we might be asked to pay.

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Re: New access charge for the Dee???

Post by Adrian Cooper » Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:08 am

Excellent post TinyPaddler.

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Re: New access charge for the Dee???

Post by BoofandSwim » Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:13 am

TinyPaddler wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:36 am
I'd like to thank everyone that took part in this discussion, even those that were rather blunt. My mistake was a simple one and all that was necessary to put me right was to point out why I was wrong. I accept I was wrong and I will do everything I can to make up for it.
Glad this looks like it will soon all be resolved amicably.

Hopefully the owner will balance your apology with an apology of their own for threatening to lock you in and phone the DVLA, despite it being clear you had made an innocent mistake!

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Re: New access charge for the Dee???

Post by TinyPaddler » Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:54 pm

Thats a fair point Chris Bolton

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Re: New access charge for the Dee???

Post by SPL » Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:21 pm

Does everyone who visits the cafe i.e. general public get charged £3 each?

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Re: New access charge for the Dee???

Post by Chalky723 » Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:24 pm

That's what the sign says.

Every time I used it you had to fill in your details on a sheet in the shop. detailing how many were in the car amongst other things.

Not been there for a while, but doubt it's changed significantly.

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Re: New access charge for the Dee???

Post by SPL » Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:59 pm

I understand the issue with the carpark being used by non customers but if me the wife and kids go for a coffee and our bill is £12 before we order anything I would go elsewhere.

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Re: New access charge for the Dee???

Post by jmmoxon » Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:35 pm

As they don't advertise the cafe I doubt they expect anyone apart from activity customers (who's use fee is presumably included in their price) & kayakers...
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Re: New access charge for the Dee???

Post by Chalky723 » Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:11 am

SPL wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:59 pm
I understand the issue with the carpark being used by non customers but if me the wife and kids go for a coffee and our bill is £12 before we order anything I would go elsewhere.
Unless you're in the habit of taking them to dank car parks for your days out it's a non issue really. You'd be better off parking in town.

As above, the only reason anyone uses it is water activity related.

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Re: New access charge for the Dee???

Post by jmmoxon » Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:16 pm

Chalky723 wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:11 am
Unless you're in the habit of taking them to dank car parks for your days out it's a non issue really. You'd be better off parking in town.
He is a kayaker...
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