Warm When Wet

Inland paddling
Snacko
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Warm When Wet

Post by Snacko » Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:38 pm

Hi All,

I wear a dry cag and dry trousers as I can't afford a drysuit. Unfortunately when I swim the water simply enters in the join between the cag and trousers, which is no fun in this weather I can tell you. Swam 3 times at the Tees Barrage last week and lost all interest due to being wet and cold. Can anyone recommend what to wear under my dry cag that will keep me warm when dry and also when I have a swim and get wet?

Should I buy a wetsuit, 1mm neoprene top or a thermal long sleeved rashy or are there any other options out there?

Any recommendations would be most appreciated.

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Re: Warm When Wet

Post by G7AFM » Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:41 pm

5mm winter wetsuit bit restrictive not cheap or used drysuit from EBAY.

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DaveBland
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Re: Warm When Wet

Post by DaveBland » Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:28 pm

If you are getting wet, you'll get cold. Wetsuit kinda works, but under a dry top/bottoms would be a lot of gear.

Easy to say and not meaning to sound sarky, but I'd work on the whole 'not swimming' thing and stay drier.

And maybe look at how the drytop and bottoms connect and seal. Maybe a neoprene strip with velcro that adds extra 'hold', if one of them is a bit loose?
dave

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Re: Warm When Wet

Post by Franky » Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:41 pm

I actually find that a decent fleece top and fleece undertrousers keep me tolerably warm even when they're wet. As long as you're not swimming all day long, and are wearing a good cag and overtrousers, your body heat warms up the water. I paddled three winters with separates before I bought a dry suit.

My top is Sweet and my undertrousers are Elephant. They've both served me well.

Can't speak for everyone, but I maintain it's possible to paddle relatively comfortably in separates.

(Also, don't underestimate the unpleasantness of al fresco toilet breaks that involve wet suits.)

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Re: Warm When Wet

Post by BoofandSwim » Thu Nov 22, 2018 7:06 pm

Thought for a moment this was going to be another case of someone claiming wetsuits are warmer when they're wet.

Alas, no physics lecture today...

I had the same problem when I used to use the cag/trousers combo. No way around it really. I know they're expensive, but drysuits really are life-changing. Lots of good second-hand ones; some are sold on the forums here. Keep an eye out.

Snacko
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Re: Warm When Wet

Post by Snacko » Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:30 am

Thanks for the advice everyone.

For the short term I'm going to invest in a decent thermal fleece top, but sounds like there's no getting around the fact I need to save for a dry suit.

Cheers Dudes.

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Adrian Cooper
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Re: Warm When Wet

Post by Adrian Cooper » Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:49 pm

It wasn't so very long ago that the 'normal' combination was a long-john wetsuit and a dry cag and everyone put up with that. Not so great for canoeists with legs exposed to the elements so we usually used dry trousers.

Indeed, if you saw the Shaun Baker video posted a couple of days ago, you would have seen the wetsuit/cag combo worn by all of them.

But, yes, save up for a dry suit; I saw one SH on FB only this morning at less than half price.

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Jim
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Re: Warm When Wet

Post by Jim » Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:09 pm

I haven't really looked recenty, but it used to be that a drysuit cost the same or less than decent separates, I usually tell people get a drysuit first, especially if looking at this time of year, and then think about separates when you get better and don't need to spend so much time in the water.
Personally I have totally wimped out now - I'm paddling in trackie bottoms and short sleeve speedskin at the moment, occasionally a long semi-dry top if it is particularly cold or raining. Last winter I was wearing shorts and semi-dry top in the snow - actually I will probably switch back to shorts when it snows, the bottoms of the trackies will get wet wading throug the snow and then stay cold in the boat, my legs will dry off after a few minutes and then feel OK.

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Adrian Cooper
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Re: Warm When Wet

Post by Adrian Cooper » Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:03 pm

I think for the average drysuit, you get quite a well engineered product, sure there are some cheap alternatives available but if you consider the 'normal' Palm, Peak, Nookie, IR, you cannot get much under about £500. If you go to separates, you can select from cheaper alternatives within the product range and come out saving albeit with lower quality.

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Re: Warm When Wet

Post by DaveBland » Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:24 pm

Adrian Cooper wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:49 pm
It wasn't so very long ago that the 'normal' combination was a long-john wetsuit and a dry cag and everyone put up with that.
Indeed. It's actually a great solution as the wetsuit bit legs is good for impact protectionon your legs.
Jim wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:09 pm
I usually tell people get a drysuit first, especially if looking at this time of year, and then think about separates when you get better and don't need to spend so much time in the water.
I found recently, I use my drysuit less and less. So much so, I sold it. I'm pretty happy with some nice Shambala shorts and a drytop and paddling in nice weather.
dave

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Re: Warm When Wet

Post by Sheepskin » Fri Nov 23, 2018 7:02 pm

Fibre pile , mardale,trax or expensive buffalo

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Jim
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Re: Warm When Wet

Post by Jim » Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:17 pm

DaveBland wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:24 pm
I found recently, I use my drysuit less and less. So much so, I sold it. I'm pretty happy with some nice Shambala shorts and a drytop and paddling in nice weather.
Ha ha, why only in nice weather - I refer you back to my closing statement:
SomeIdiot wrote: Last winter I was wearing shorts and semi-dry top in the snow - actually I will probably switch back to shorts when it snows, the bottoms of the trackies will get wet wading throug the snow and then stay cold in the boat, my legs will dry off after a few minutes and then feel OK.

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DaveBland
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Re: Warm When Wet

Post by DaveBland » Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:53 pm

Jim wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:17 pm
Ha ha, why only in nice weather - I refer you back to my closing statement:
I suspect we may have differing experiences of 'not nice weather' due to locational variation :)

But then that's just an excuse. I'm a wimp therse days – and have had a "double digits" rule for several years now.
dave

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Jim
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Re: Warm When Wet

Post by Jim » Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:04 am

DaveBland wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:53 pm
Jim wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:17 pm
Ha ha, why only in nice weather - I refer you back to my closing statement:
I suspect we may have differing experiences of 'not nice weather' due to locational variation :)

But then that's just an excuse. I'm a wimp therse days – and have had a "double digits" rule for several years now.
For sure where you are gets colder than where I am but sounds like you stop paddling way warmer!

Earlier this year we did a training session on the Tay on a day when the cars were registering -8C (suspect even cooler at water level), I was wearing shorts then, admittedly with a semi dry top and pogies. There was a photo going around of me at the end of the day (I think 2 runs from Aberfeldy to Tully followed by some laps of Tully) with icicles hanging from the (normally soft) peak on my helmet - it's fair to say I was struggling to see the lines past them by the end of the day. I think that was the same day my hand brake froze on and I had to fit snow socks to get enough traction to break it free so I could drive home. It wasn't our only sub-zero training day, we had some sub-zero races too, just the most memorable.

I guess you didn't see my FB retaliation to all my friends who kept posting skiing/snowboarding videos (can't ski, won't ski). Aha, here is a link (you'll get the picture in the first 5 seconds, I was wearing shorts):

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Jim
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Re: Warm When Wet

Post by Jim » Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:37 am

Hmm, high tide at 15:07 today (I try to go just before high tide to minimise tidal effect on the circuit) and the forecast is for 4C, 17-33mph wind and light sleet by then.
Yesterday in shorty speedskin and short thermal I was feeling hot 5 mins in although regretting not using my pogies, but today I think I'll have to go for long sleeve semi dry top and pogies, the question is, long or short sleeve thermal underneath???

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DaveBland
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Re: Warm When Wet

Post by DaveBland » Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:29 pm

That's hardcore. You do realise that all that time you were paddling, there was a perfectly good sofa waiting at home with your name on it, right?
Honestly, there should be laws about that sort of thing...
dave

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Jim
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Re: Warm When Wet

Post by Jim » Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:04 pm

No, that's my lunchtime* training circuit, all I had to do instead was sit in a freezing cold office :)
*which I now move to suit high tide

I'm definitely not the only person paddling in these conditions, all the slalom and WWR paddlers I know will be out training, the paddlers looking at GB selection will be doing 2 sessions most days through the winter, 3 or 4 of those days will be 2 paddling sessions, others will be one paddling and one gym. We had to draw the line at polo training when fingers are too numb to pick up the ball... If the rivers are up, Scottish creek boaters head out whatever the ground conditions are like - admittedly that much snow at sea level often means the rivers are down, but not always.
You just need a thermal, a windproof and high work rate and you can be perfectly warm. Definitely no swimming though.

I'm guessing you don't get those intermediate conditions where its freezing cold but the rivers aren't solid enough to drive on?

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Re: Warm When Wet

Post by DaveBland » Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:33 pm

Jim wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:04 pm
I'm guessing you don't get those intermediate conditions where its freezing cold but the rivers aren't solid enough to drive on?
It's not so much that... the water's always super cold. It's that in the spring and autumn, there are other games to play.
If the paddling's on-tap more in season, the need to go and catch it is less - when it's out of season and nasty out.
dave

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Adrian Cooper
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Re: Warm When Wet

Post by Adrian Cooper » Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:51 pm

DaveBland wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:53 pm
have had a "double digits" rule for several years now.
I assume that's double digit C not double digit F

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DaveBland
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Re: Warm When Wet

Post by DaveBland » Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:41 pm

I think you have to live in Trumpton to use the Fs don't you?
dave

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Re: Warm When Wet

Post by Adrian Cooper » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:56 pm

You North American continentals, I really don't know. :-)

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StoneWeasel
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Re: Warm When Wet

Post by StoneWeasel » Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:18 pm

I am going to go the other way than most with my advice for keeping warm.

You do not need a drysuit to keep warm in my opinion, you need good thermals!

My dry kit is really not very dry these days (I'll buy some new stuff eventually) but I am never cold when paddling. I find a nice super thin base layer with a layer of transpire fleece over the top and I am snug and warm even when taking a soaking on the coldest of days.

Personally I rate Helly Hanson Dry or IQ thermals (I got some cheap through sport pursuit) as a base layer with some Reed transpire fleece over the top.

With those thermals on I am more than happy to paddle in an old leaky cag and trousers combo all winter long. and it is a damn sight cheaper than a dry suit

Denzil

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Re: Warm When Wet

Post by Chris Bolton » Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:57 pm

A lot depends on the person; I could not cope with what Denzil wears. My body is poorly heated or poorly insulated and I feel the cold. In 4ºC (air temp and possibly water temp too, in Iceland) I was wearing a silk thermal, a Brynje top (=polyester string vest), a thick thermal and two layers of fleece, under my drysuit, and I was not hot.

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Adrian Cooper
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Re: Warm When Wet

Post by Adrian Cooper » Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:04 pm

Chris Bolton wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:57 pm
My body is poorly heated or poorly insulated
Ah! If only!

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Jim
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Re: Warm When Wet

Post by Jim » Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:44 pm

Adrian Cooper wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:04 pm
Chris Bolton wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:57 pm
My body is poorly heated or poorly insulated
Ah! If only!
Careful what you wish for, I find the winters much harder since losing weight!

Counterintuitively I am usually warmest when apparently wearing not enough warm kit - but only because I'm working hard in a race boat (shorty cagdeck again the last couple of days, admittedly if there had been anyone to see me yesterday they would have been confused by the combination of shorty cag and pogies).

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Re: Warm When Wet

Post by gp.girl » Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:44 pm

Jim wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:44 pm
Adrian Cooper wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:04 pm
Chris Bolton wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:57 pm
My body is poorly heated or poorly insulated
Ah! If only!
Careful what you wish for, I find the winters much harder since losing weight!

Counterintuitively I am usually warmest when apparently wearing not enough warm kit - but only because I'm working hard in a race boat (shorty cagdeck again the last couple of days, admittedly if there had been anyone to see me yesterday they would have been confused by the combination of shorty cag and pogies).
Totally sensible I do t shirt and gloves when cycling.

Oddly I'm only forced to wear a jumper cycling when it's below freezing but a total wimp when kayaking. People turn up at work in jumper, coat, fluffy hat and a car and complain about being cold!
I can roll :)

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Re: Warm When Wet

Post by LucyLou19 » Sat Dec 01, 2018 6:49 pm

Id ditch the drytrousers for neo bottoms, and then wear a neo top under your drycag. I was paddling today in this and was fine. Drysuit is for 5 degrees celcius and below (well currently not a thing as it needs new neck seal).

Thermals from a snowboarding range (ie sweet protection type) or merino wool would be good. But if you have drytrousers with feet and you are getting that wet id be concerned about water pooling in your feet?? Also, do you have bib-dry trousers. As i can be dry for a quick swim in my drytrousers and top but they are bib trousers. Are you sorting out your waist seals properly?

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Re: Warm When Wet

Post by jmmoxon » Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:24 pm

Adrian Cooper wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:56 pm
You North American continentals, I really don't know. :-)
Canada - centigrade, USA - farenheit, pounds & (different) gallons
http://kayakworldguide.forums-free.com Links to websites with info on white water, touring, sea & surf.

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Re: Warm When Wet

Post by Mini2 » Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:03 pm

Seen the topic
Older man new to kayaking (40ish)
Not done much cold weather
Thinking going out at local beach, over holidays
I got fleece rash top under wetsuit would it be a good idea to wear a fleece top over wetsuit under splash cag would this keep me warm when wet
Thanks

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Re: Warm When Wet

Post by andynormancx » Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:25 pm

A fleece top isn't very useful for keeping you warm when it is wet.

Water in contact with your skin conducts heat away from you at something like 25 times faster than air in contact with your skin.

Fleece is warm mainly because it traps lots of against your skin and also inside the fleece material itself. Once fleece is wet you are basically wearing a jacket made of water. Wet fleece won't keep you warm.

Neoprene in comparison keeps you warm because the material itself conducts heat a lot slower that water, but also because the material contains lots of trapped air bubbles.

When neoprene gets wet it doesn't soak up water, the air bubbles are still there. I keeps you warm even when it is wet.

If you are concerned that your wetsuit isn't warm enough for the conditions, get a thicker wetsuit, not a fleece.

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