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Krab on a Throwline?

Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:23 am
by Liam1909
Recently got back from paddling in the alps, and a few of the lads there had a krab attached to the end of their throwline.

Whats peoples opinion on this? Is it worth doing or is the risk too great?

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Re: Krab on a Throwline?

Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:11 pm
by Chalky723
I have a krab on mine, sometimes i take it off before throwing, other times not. Depends how much time I've got from getting out of the boat. If it's thrown on the bag it's screwed shut, so not going to catch anything.

D

Re: Krab on a Throwline?

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:10 am
by MaverickvRS
Chalky723 wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:11 pm
I have a krab on mine, sometimes i take it off before throwing, other times not. Depends how much time I've got from getting out of the boat. If it's thrown on the bag it's screwed shut, so not going to catch anything.

D
Won't catch anything, just knock the recipient unconscious? ;)

Re: Krab on a Throwline?

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:06 pm
by Chas C
When I did my 5* few years ago we'd all agreed that when teaching new paddlers or early * rescues then leaving the krab off to avoid injuries was best.

However when paddling with your peers its probably better to have something that can be used assuming the recipient knows what's coming, if they are unable to see the line/bag being thrown then probably best to remove the krab.

Re: Krab on a Throwline?

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:35 pm
by Chalky723
MaverickvRS wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:10 am
Won't catch anything, just knock the recipient unconscious? ;)
Nah, it's only a ickle one - gives them a good incentive to catch the bloody bag though!

D

Re: Krab on a Throwline?

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:59 pm
by DaveBland
I fill mine with rocks. Makes it easier to hit em in in the head with.
...dumn ass swimmers. Learn to roll.

Re: Krab on a Throwline?

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:37 pm
by jmmoxon
Bag should be thrown beyond the swimmer anyway, if they grab hold of it they'll just run out to the end...

Mike

Re: Krab on a Throwline?

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:35 am
by Ian Dallaway
jmmoxon wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:37 pm
Bag should be thrown beyond the swimmer anyway, if they grab hold of it they'll just run out to the end...

Mike
That isn't always the case. In stoppers for instance you are looking to hit the swimmer with the bag. the rope alone is too easy to miss and sinks quickly in the aerated water.

A better idea with the karabiner is to attach it to the rope inside the bag. It is always there then and can be used for equipment recovery. When the rope is used to rescue a swimmer the krab is padded by the bag and won't hurt anyone.

Either clove hitch it inside the bag next to the knot, or with the Palm bags you can tie it to the rope and clip to the tape or ring. (The Palm setup gives you the option to remove the bag from the end of the rope, leaving just the krab on the end.) I've had it this way for a number of years and it works very well in all scenarios.

Re: Krab on a Throwline?

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:51 am
by andypagett
I keep a krab on my throwline. That way I always have a krab and a throwline together if I need them (e.g. in a hurry e.g. live bait). Of course if I'm setting safety on the bank I'll remove the krab. If I'm ever in a situation where I have to use the throwline but don't have time to remove the krab, getting hit in the face by a krab is probably less of a concern to the victim than whatever alternative meant I didn't have the time.

Re: Krab on a Throwline?

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:36 pm
by Chalky723
andypagett wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:51 am
I keep a krab on my throwline. That way I always have a krab and a throwline together if I need them (e.g. in a hurry e.g. live bait). Of course if I'm setting safety on the bank I'll remove the krab. If I'm ever in a situation where I have to use the throwline but don't have time to remove the krab, getting hit in the face by a krab is probably less of a concern to the victim than whatever alternative meant I didn't have the time.
Yeah, that's exactly my thinking...

D

Re: Krab on a Throwline?

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:48 pm
by Liam1909
Thanks guys

on that note, what kind of Krab do you use?

Re: Krab on a Throwline?

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:29 pm
by Ian Dallaway
Liam1909 wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:48 pm
Thanks guys

on that note, what kind of Krab do you use?
The ideal karabiner is a large HMS screw lock type - larger the better ideally, as then it is much easier to use with cold hands and it will pass a knot if you need to set up a tension diagonal with 2 ropes joined together. You ideally need to carry at least 2 of them per person, so that within the group you have enough to set up a pulley or pig-rig system if required.

The thing with large karabiners is they can potentially hurt the swimmer if the rescuer is careless enough to leave it clipped to the end of the bag when throwing it.

Maybe this is a big advert for doing a WWS&R course where you get to practice these skills in a safer environment, and better understand the reasoning behind such practices.

Re: Krab on a Throwline?

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:17 pm
by StillNewish
Chalky723 wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:36 pm
andypagett wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:51 am
I keep a krab on my throwline. That way I always have a krab and a throwline together if I need them (e.g. in a hurry e.g. live bait). Of course if I'm setting safety on the bank I'll remove the krab. If I'm ever in a situation where I have to use the throwline but don't have time to remove the krab, getting hit in the face by a krab is probably less of a concern to the victim than whatever alternative meant I didn't have the time.
Yeah, that's exactly my thinking...

D
Yep, I'd agree with this. If there's time, it can always be removed before throwing, but if someone is getting a beating they'd rather have a line with a crab on it, quickly, than not have one...

Re: Krab on a Throwline?

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:10 pm
by Chalky723
Liam1909 wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:48 pm
on that note, what kind of Krab do you use?
The one on the throwbag is a small/medium screwgate one. I have a large HMS screwgate on my sling in the front pocket, a large spring gate in there too. A large HMS screwgate& a normal screwgate in a side pocket (other side is a mars bar) and there are normally a couple of normal size screwgates securing kit in the back of the boat....

D

Re: Krab on a Throwline?

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:22 pm
by Liam1909
Thanks for all the advice, hopefully booking on a WWS&R course sooner rather than later

Re: Krab on a Throwline?

Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:15 pm
by TechnoEngineer
Ian Dallaway wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:35 am
A better idea with the karabiner is to attach it to the rope inside the bag. It is always there then and can be used for equipment recovery. When the rope is used to rescue a swimmer the krab is padded by the bag and won't hurt anyone.

Either clove hitch it inside the bag next to the knot, or with the Palm bags you can tie it to the rope and clip to the tape or ring. (The Palm setup gives you the option to remove the bag from the end of the rope, leaving just the krab on the end.) I've had it this way for a number of years and it works very well in all scenarios.
Interesting idea - do you have any pictures or video to illustrate the point?

Re: Krab on a Throwline?

Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:18 pm
by Chalky723
I tried it with one of my palm throwbags, but I found the karabiner more useful on the outside - you can clip it into the boat etc....

D

Re: Krab on a Throwline?

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:36 am
by Ian Dallaway
TechnoEngineer wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:15 pm
Ian Dallaway wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:35 am
A better idea with the karabiner is to attach it to the rope inside the bag. It is always there then and can be used for equipment recovery. When the rope is used to rescue a swimmer the krab is padded by the bag and won't hurt anyone.

Either clove hitch it inside the bag next to the knot, or with the Palm bags you can tie it to the rope and clip to the tape or ring. (The Palm setup gives you the option to remove the bag from the end of the rope, leaving just the krab on the end.) I've had it this way for a number of years and it works very well in all scenarios.
Interesting idea - do you have any pictures or video to illustrate the point?
Sorry, I don't have any pictures to hand to show my setup. It's fairly easy to do though... With the modern Palm throwlines, untie the rope from the bag and tie it to a suitable locking karabiner instead (your choice of knot, but I chose a bowline with a good stopper knot as it is easily undoable, for when I want a totally clean rope for other rescue scenarios). Then simply clip the krab into where the rope was originally tied into the bag.

It makes for a very versatile setup, as you can remove the bag totally for live bait rescues, or you can reach inside the bag to clip the krab to a boat for equipment retrieval. A simple throwline rescue works normally, without the added fear of causing injury to a swimmer by the karabiner as it is safely inside the bag.

I store my rope in front of the seat in a Pyranha boat, using the supplied fastex buckle (most other boats have a similar storage area).

Re: Krab on a Throwline?

Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:44 pm
by Simon Westgarth
As ever with these things, it depends. Most of the time, I keep my krab on the throwbag, as I mainly deploy my bag a swimmers, where by I am at a similar level/height, so the bag is thrown beyond the swimmer during the rescue. At other times, when I throw from a point of elevation, or to a swimmer in a stopper, I am trying to deliver the bag into the paddler's grasp, and thus on this occasion I would possibility remove the krab. Ian's ideas are interesting, but from my experience rescues that are successful, tend to be simple and prompt.

Re: Krab on a Throwline?

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:44 am
by garya
Salamander do throw lines with a pocket on the side for the Krab to sit in. If you need it you just pull it out of the Velcro pouch.

https://salamanderpaddlegear.com/catalo ... throw-bags


I don't know why other suppliers don't use this idea unless the design idea is protected.

Even a just bag full of rope traveling at speed is going to sting if it hits you in the face, maybe we just tell paddlers to dip their face to present the top of there helmet if they know its going to hit them full face. I have found holding the line up and taut so that a krab can be clipped on and flicked to the bag end is also a useful skill to develop and practice.

Spare krab in your front BA pocket with a prussik attached is helpful too in many situations.

Gary A

Re: Krab on a Throwline?

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:43 am
by SimonMW
They will be wearing helmets. The slight risk of a cut eye is probably more preferable to swimming off down a G4-5 rapid. If your bag is krabbed into the boat for security you may not have time to faff around removing it. If I was in the water I'd prefer someone to just throw the damn thing rather than pussyfoot around fettling with their gear.

Re: Krab on a Throwline?

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:17 am
by Ian Dallaway
SimonMW wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:43 am
They will be wearing helmets. The slight risk of a cut eye is probably more preferable to swimming off down a G4-5 rapid. If your bag is krabbed into the boat for security you may not have time to faff around removing it. If I was in the water I'd prefer someone to just throw the damn thing rather than pussyfoot around fettling with their gear.
Do all canoeists wear helmets? I've seen a few that don't, especially on easier whitewater.
Either way, you get the swimmers attention, they look at you and you throw a rope at them. the chance of hitting them in the face is high.

I'd much rather the would be rescuers were dynamic enough to adapt to the situation, rather than simply adopting a 'one solution fits all' approach that may well make the situation much worse.

I've mentioned it before - get on a WWS&R course where you can try these things out in a safer environment.

Re: Krab on a Throwline?

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:00 am
by davebrads
Ian Dallaway wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:17 am
Either way, you get the swimmers attention, they look at you and you throw a rope at them. the chance of hitting them in the face is high.
Not in my experience it isn't. The swimmer is lucky if the bag lands anywhere near them

Re: Krab on a Throwline?

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:04 am
by SimonMW
I've mentioned it before - get on a WWS&R course where you can try these things out in a safer environment.
I have, many times thank you, and I have raised this specific question with the coaches who have run them. If you've got your throwline krabbed into the boat for security and a situation arises, throw the damn thing instead of wasting time fannying about taking it off. In some situations you might not have time. By all means if you are running safety for something like Serpents Tail where you can all get out and pretty much eat lunch before the first paddler comes down, take it off if you like. But otherwise if I'm heading towards oblivion I'd rather risk the bloody nose.
The swimmer is lucky if the bag lands anywhere near them
Spot on.
Do all canoeists wear helmets? I've seen a few that don't, especially on easier whitewater.
Then they are silly.

Re: Krab on a Throwline?

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:04 pm
by scottdog007
Incidentally the large sprung karabiner will clip on a paddle shaft. These are the crabs you often get with a sling. I have a sling with 2 of these on in my BA.

So when say someone is stuck on an island with loads of water rushing around them, throw them a line with this crab on it, attach the paddle and take this back first. Re-throw to get the person.

Re: Krab on a Throwline?

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:19 am
by Chalky723
scottdog007 wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:04 pm
Incidentally the large sprung karabiner will clip on a paddle shaft. These are the crabs you often get with a sling. I have a sling with 2 of these on in my BA.

So when say someone is stuck on an island with loads of water rushing around them, throw them a line with this crab on it, attach the paddle and take this back first. Re-throw to get the person.
We did exactly this on the Middle Guil last week when I ejected... "Save the paddle" was my frantic cry...

Image

D

Re: Krab on a Throwline?

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:15 pm
by John K
Nice photo :D