BCU insurance - leading youths

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kayaker_13
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BCU insurance - leading youths

Post by kayaker_13 » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:51 pm

Hello,

This may seem a bit of a daft question, but I have been told by a BCU coach that my BCU membership doesn't cover me to lead under 18's on a grade 2/3 river.
I am a qualified 5 star WW leader so have the relevent bits of paper.

I was also told that I need an AALA licence, I have checked their website and I don't as far as I can see because I am not taking payment for the trip. I am happy that the AALA bit was wrong but as I couldn't find anything on the insurance forms about the youth bit I wanted to double check.

Are there any other issues that I should know about?
I know the parents and have consent, this is a private trip and not linked to any clubs.

Thanks
Nick
When in doubt PLF!

Nick

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Re: BCU insurance - leading youths

Post by GregS » Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:52 am

AALA could not be clearer: "if you do not provide licensable activities to young people in return for payment then you do not need a licence" - so that bit is easy.

If you are operating under the insurance provided by British Canoeing membership you should be aware of any expectations... but this certainty doesn't preclude taking youngsters to fun places.

You also have a Duty of Care... and should certainly ensure the responsible adults are fully aware of your plans... but if you know what you are doing, neither should be a barrier.



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Re: BCU insurance - leading youths

Post by DaveB » Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:40 am

I thiknthe BCU coach you quoted in the OP is wrong.

You are an individual BCU member ( not just a member of an affiliated club) and you are not leading on a commercial basis. You are insured against 3rd party liability.. SImple as that in my opinion.

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Re: BCU insurance - leading youths

Post by Adrian Cooper » Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:56 am

People often talk rubbish about insurance.

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Re: BCU insurance - leading youths

Post by kayaker_13 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:23 am

Thanks for the replies, I thought I was doing it correctly but I wanted to double check just in case!
When in doubt PLF!

Nick

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Re: BCU insurance - leading youths

Post by AGNorwich » Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:40 pm

The BCU insurance schedule (accessible from https://www.britishcanoeing.org.uk/memb ... towergate/) has a clause "....coaches must hold a qualification as recognised by the insured, If this condition is not complied with, the policy coverage will not be operative".

The syllabus for all the leader awards says that it "is a leadership award and not a coaching award."

I suspect your contact is linking these two things together.

viewtopic.php?t=123195 gives a useful discussion of the issues in relation to adults.

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Re: BCU insurance - leading youths

Post by Adrian Cooper » Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:57 pm

On the basis that context is everything, where does it say that? I couldn't find it in my speed reading of the various documents on that link.

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Re: BCU insurance - leading youths

Post by Chris Bolton » Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:42 pm

Adrian, it's in Policy Schedule. But it seems to me unclear what Coach is defined as - elsewhere in the schedule it says coaches are covered if their turnover is less than £35k. The FAQ says experience and qualifications can be taken into account, so it could be argued that "a qualification recognised by the Insured" means that. I am surprised BC have not ensured better clarity.

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Re: BCU insurance - leading youths

Post by Adrian Cooper » Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:32 am

Better clarity indeed! 'The Insured' includes coaches but also members. It is a condition that all coaches hold a recognised qualification.

Let me suggest that, if you do not hold a recognised coaching qualification then you are not a coach for the purposes of the insurance but you would certainly remain a member for the purposes of the insurance so you are covered. N'est pas?

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Re: BCU insurance - leading youths

Post by Hengle » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:38 am

On the British Canoeing Website here https://www.britishcanoeing.org.uk/memb ... towergate/

it states in the FAQ, in the Coaches paragraph towards the bottom of the page:

"The policy schedule says all coaches must hold a qualification, does this mean as an experienced volunteer, I am not covered for helping at club sessions anymore?
Under the terms of the policy both "experience" and formal qualification is included. British Canoeing recognises the important work that goes on in clubs via experienced personnel. We would recommend that clubs ensure they audit these volunteers against their experience. "

"The types of activities being run by experienced individuals will typically include running basic and improvers skills sessions, competitive training events, time trials or club trips or journeys."

Hengle

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Re: BCU insurance - leading youths

Post by Adrian Cooper » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:48 am

And the policy schedule describes 'members and voluntary helpers'. So it seems BC have tried to cover volunteers and have created another ambiguity. Are these voluntary helper required to be members? If all coaches are required to be members then why separate coaches out from other members? If they are coaches with different qualifications like, say, ML then for the purpose of the insurances the qualification is irrelevant but if they are still members then that's fine. If the volunteers are not members, maybe they are not covered, maybe they are, if not, why mention them?

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Re: BCU insurance - leading youths

Post by Hengle » Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:39 pm

Hi Adrian
There are volunteers that volunteer for British Canoeing directly and so are listed separately, there are also volunteers who volunteer as part of a club, the same break down could also be made for members.

on the clubs page in the benefits of affiliation it states "Combined Liability insurance cover – for your members and club activities up to £10 million" and you have already looked at the individual members question above.

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Re: BCU insurance - leading youths

Post by Adrian Cooper » Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:48 pm

So a volunteer for a club would not be covered?

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Re: BCU insurance - leading youths

Post by Hengle » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:17 pm

A volunteer is part of a club as per the statement "Combined Liability insurance cover – for your members and club activities up to £10 million" they are asked to do a role by the club and are taking part in club activities.

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Re: BCU insurance - leading youths

Post by Chris Bolton » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:03 pm

Adrian Cooper wrote:if you do not hold a recognised coaching qualification then you are not a coach for the purposes of the insurance but you would certainly remain a member for the purposes of the insurance so you are covered. N'est pas?
Again, I find it not clear - the definition of "Insured" (section 15.2 of the policy wording) says
any registered Member of the club, association, league or entity or voluntary worker but only whilst acting in connection with club, association, league or entity activities
That could be taken to mean members are only covered when participating in BC events, or it might be that "entity activities" included paddling in any circumstances. I went to look at the FAQ for clarification; maybe it's my inability to find it, or has the FAQ disappeared from the BC website? The problem is that the FAQ isn't the policy; in the event of a problem, the policy wording will take precedence over the FAQ.

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Re: BCU insurance - leading youths

Post by Adrian Cooper » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:17 am

In the policy schedule the definition of 'insured' includes members as well as coaches. In the policy wording you have referenced, the use of the expression 'member of the club' I think means a member of BC rather than a member of an affiliated club who is not also a member of BC. We need to be careful to read these in the insurers terms rather than our own.

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Re: BCU insurance - leading youths

Post by GregS » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:49 am

OK - the page already linked addresses most "FAQ" - see https://www.britishcanoeing.org.uk/memb ... towergate/
Affiliated Clubs [...]

Members of affiliated clubs are insured for recognised sessions and activities of the club. However, these club members will not be insured if they are canoeing or kayaking at other times.

If you think you will be canoeing outside of sessions organised by your club you will need to purchase your own membership from the Home Nation where you live.

Coaches

Coaches are provided with the insurance cover as individual members, and also to Professional Indemnity insurance cover [...] To be entitled to this extension of cover, coaches will need to be current and updated.

What activities are clubs covered for?

In addition to recognised British Canoeing activities, clubs are covered for all activities typically associated with the running of a club, including administration and social events.

Are club members insured via the club for arranging their own paddles through social media?

No, they would need to be individual members to be insured. If, however, this is a club activity and the club has deployed a suitably experienced leader, cover would be in place for the club and its members.
To clarify: I take "recognised British Canoeing activities" to mean anything British Canoeing has recognised... so pretty much all traditional canoe / kayak activities... but maybe not throwing yourself out of a hot air balloon to see if you can hit the bottom of a waterfall faster than Bren Orton can by paddling over the lip!

If anyone doubts that interpretation I can get official confirmation... but I assure you that it doesn't just mean BC events / training courses and so on!

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Re: BCU insurance - leading youths

Post by Chris Bolton » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:24 am

Thanks Greg. The FAQ I can't find is the one referred to in the linked page - it says:
you can find a full list broken down into Individual Members, Clubs and Coaches within the Useful Download section
but there is no such item in the Useful Downloads.

My concern is that the BC interpretation of who is covered for what is quite high level, and I'd expect to find more detail in the missing FAQ sections or the linked Towergate documents. But the Towergate documents appear to be a standard wording for sports clubs, and don't read well when applied to a sport where the individual members do the sport in small peer groups. If the FAQ was written or endorsed by Towergate, I'd be more confident.

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Re: BCU insurance - leading youths

Post by Adrian Cooper » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:54 pm

I'm right there with you Chris, I would always want to see what is written in the policy rather than the interpretation.

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Re: BCU insurance - leading youths

Post by Robert Craig » Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:16 pm

Hengle wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:38 am
On the British Canoeing Website here https://www.britishcanoeing.org.uk/memb ... towergate/

it states in the FAQ, in the Coaches paragraph towards the bottom of the page:

"The policy schedule says all coaches must hold a qualification, does this mean as an experienced volunteer, I am not covered for helping at club sessions anymore?
Under the terms of the policy both "experience" and formal qualification is included. British Canoeing recognises the important work that goes on in clubs via experienced personnel. We would recommend that clubs ensure they audit these volunteers against their experience. "

"The types of activities being run by experienced individuals will typically include running basic and improvers skills sessions, competitive training events, time trials or club trips or journeys."

Hengle
This is misleading. It's the inclusion of the "experienced" which I've highlighted above which makes it misleading. The real question to which people want the answer (and it's been asked so often that it must be tops of the FAQs) is: "does this mean that as an unqualified volunteer club member I am not covered for helping at club sessions ..."

My reading of the insurance (backed up by a conversation with the brokers) is that all club members, competent or incompetent, experienced or not, are covered for negligence which on club activities.

I really don't know why the FAQ remains as it is. I've asked BC to change it - 'cos it's misleading, but got obfuscation.

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Re: BCU insurance - leading youths

Post by Adrian Cooper » Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:57 pm

I think it also needs to make clear the difference between 'members' who are part of the list of 'the insured' who will be BC members and have a membership number and 'members of affiliated clubs' who are an entirely different category but still covered by the public liability insurance in very particular circumstances which should be spelt out.

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Re: BCU insurance - leading youths

Post by Robert Craig » Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:21 pm

GregS and others in the know - any comment?

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