Personal Performance Awards - review

Inland paddling
Psamathe
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Re: Personal Performance Awards - review

Post by Psamathe » Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:37 pm

twopigs wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:55 am
Maybe the FIRST question for a Personal Performance Review should be - What are they for?

For those who get into the coaching route they are pre-requisites that show you have some mastery of the skills you are going to coach. For others?? Maybe for young people they provide some kudos - but for adults??
......
I would agree and related to that, what is "broken" in the current system that the proposed new scheme will address. You can e.g. remove the dual discipline from 2* and remove the leader training from higher * levels without a complete re-design. So what are BC trying to address in the complete redesign and will the proposed scheme achieve that?

Phrases like "wider appeal" and "greater involvement" are no more than sound bites and couple be achieved under the current star scheme.
twopigs wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:55 am
....
To me the idea of making the awards more accessible by having more providers suggests that BC see the awards as a revenue stream ....... Is there any evidence of pent up demand because clubs are either unable to offer the current star awards or because paddlers have to travel to find an assessment centre??
In my own case I would have progressed my training under the star scheme except the 2* dual dicipline requirement meant more than double time and double cost (and I don't need to get the awards so I haven't). Even with the dual discipline 2* requirement I'd probably have done it had there been somewhere local.

Revising the award scheme is unlikely to make more recreational clubs start offering more courses (so no improved geographical coverage from clubs under the new scheme). Best would be more training centres offering the training - but to achieve that we'd need to know why they are not already offering such training and how the proposed re-design will encourage them to.

I was nearly going to travel 100+ miles each way to a training centre to do my dual discipline 2* this year (£100+), but telephoned the centre early in the year and they had decided to no longer offer BC star courses any more. My impression was that they were not getting enough attendees to make them viable and said they would run a course if I got a big enough group together. So is the re-design going to get the training centre more attendees?

I thing BC need to disclose their analysis as to what exactly is wrong with the star awards and why changes will address the shortcomings. e.g. are they seeking more attendees on training centres or what?

Ian

Psamathe
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Re: Personal Performance Awards - review

Post by Psamathe » Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:38 pm

Robert Craig wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:15 pm
The devil will be in the detail
I agree and my concern is that there is no detail at the moment. And I am concerned that this is the consultation and the next we hear will be BC announcing the new award scheme without any further consultation on "the detail".

Ian

Psamathe
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Re: Personal Performance Awards - review

Post by Psamathe » Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:09 pm

SPL wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:27 am
Would it make sense to have grades 1-5 mirroring river grades to show what level someone is competent to paddle at?
Apologies if that's what the stars do but with no aspiration to be an instructor I lost interest in collecting stars.
The difficulty comes in the different disciplines. Say I get to level 3, I show you my certificate and you let me lose on a grade 3 river, except the grade 3 I have meant I know tides, how to call the RNLI, etc. The award levels needs to be able to cover all disciplines.

I do wonder if the basic, intermediate, advanced with or made up from endorsements in disciplines might be the easiest way to use a single award scheme across the different disciplines.

In the days of my scuba-diving (which is somewhat more "policed" and certification is pretty obligatory), your log book was as important as your certification. Pairing-up on e.g. Red Sea dives what was in your log book was crucial (e.g. were you likely to get "nervous" 1st shark you met or were you familiar with the waters ...).

Another interesting training scheme was learning to glide (in France) where there were a number of skills needed before your 1st solo. These were listed in your training book (Livret de Progression) and each flight (or most flights) the instructor would tick the skills you had demonstrated/learnt. You have to have each skill tricked several times (e.g. landing ok just once was not enough!!!).
example of such a record:
Image
(I've obliterated some of the written comments for privacy reasons)

something more along those lines would encompass both club and training centre, any individual could use both club and training centre to do different parts of an award. BSAC scuba used to use similar for your training dives - I did some of mine with my club, some at a training centre but they all counted towards the certification award.

If BC are having a radical re-think have they considered the full breadth of possibilities or are they just doing a marketing/PR re-branding.

Ian

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Re: Personal Performance Awards - review

Post by Ian Dallaway » Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:25 pm

Psamathe wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:37 pm

I thing BC need to disclose their analysis as to what exactly is wrong with the star awards and why changes will address the shortcomings. e.g. are they seeking more attendees on training centres or what?

Ian
I guess some easy answers as I see them are:

1. The Leadership awards have now been separated from the Personal Performance Awards. This means that the 4 & 5 star awards are now defunct.
2. There was seen a need to separate the multi-discipline element of the 2 star award. (bizarrely there is resistance to this separation, just as there was resistance to it being combined originally!)
3. The name 'star' awards, even though it has been around for decades, really means nothing to people outside paddlesport.
4. The desire to remove the requirement of Personal Performance awards as a pre-requisite to Coaching or Leadership awards.


I for one think it's great that evolution is taking place and we are finally modernising the performance awards. Clearly there's lots of detail still to be worked out and announced, but it looks good to me so far. Who knows, The new awards might even reflect what paddlers really do when we go paddling.

At the end of the day - if paddlers see no relevance in the new awards then they simply won't do them! There is/will be no driver to force anyone to do these awards.
Ian

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Adrian Cooper
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Re: Personal Performance Awards - review

Post by Adrian Cooper » Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:56 pm

Of course the 4 and 5 star awards are not 'defunct', they have merely been renamed and they still contain personal skills requirements as well and leadership skills

I can see there might be a desire to separate personal skills from leadership skills at 4 and 5 star but I think it is a nonsense to remove the requirement for personal skills from the leadership awards, you really can't have someone leading on advanced water if they do not have the skills to be there. Coaching, I can see being a discussion point but once you get past 3 star you can't really coach from the bank.

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Re: Personal Performance Awards - review

Post by Franky » Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:00 pm

Adrian Cooper wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:56 pm
I can see there might be a desire to separate personal skills from leadership skills at 4 and 5 star but I think it is a nonsense to remove the requirement for personal skills from the leadership awards, you really can't have someone leading on advanced water if they do not have the skills to be there. Coaching, I can see being a discussion point but once you get past 3 star you can't really coach from the bank.
Surely nobody should be coaching *anything* that they can't do themselves? The only exception I can imagine is if the coach can no longer paddle to their former standard, owing to injury, illness etc.

Coaching from the bank or from the river makes no difference - if you can't do what you're telling others to do, why the heck are they paying you money to teach them? Imagine if you could qualify as a driving instructor without having passed your test! I'm sure this is not what is meant by "Remove the link of personal performance awards to coaching qualifications", but it is badly worded because it leaves open that interpretation.

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Re: Personal Performance Awards - review

Post by Ian Dallaway » Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:23 pm

Adrian Cooper wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:56 pm
Of course the 4 and 5 star awards are not 'defunct', they have merely been renamed and they still contain personal skills requirements as well and leadership skills
You are correct of course Adrian. What I was referring to was that the names 4 & 5 star are now defunct as these awards are now correctly named for what they really are.
Adrian Cooper wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:56 pm
I can see there might be a desire to separate personal skills from leadership skills at 4 and 5 star but I think it is a nonsense to remove the requirement for personal skills from the leadership awards, you really can't have someone leading on advanced water if they do not have the skills to be there. Coaching, I can see being a discussion point but once you get past 3 star you can't really coach from the bank.
.

The Personal Paddling awards, the Coaching awards and the Leadership awards will obviously share lots of common ground, as determined by the chosen environment. How can it not?
I'm sure the assessment process of the leadership and coaching awards currently is, and will be in the future, robust enough to prove competence in that given environment.

We need the detail of the new awards before we can see what that common ground is.
Then we should be able to see how the individual strands link together.
Ian

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Simon Westgarth
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Re: Personal Performance Awards - review

Post by Simon Westgarth » Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:56 am

Ian Dallaway wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:23 pm
The Personal Paddling awards, the Coaching awards and the Leadership awards will obviously share lots of common ground, as determined by the chosen environment. How can it not?
I'm sure the assessment process of the leadership and coaching awards currently is, and will be in the future, robust enough to prove competence in that given environment.
Sadly too much focus has been placed on leadership and not enough on the requirement to be skilful, rather than simply competent. The opening up on the personal performance awards to demand skilful and perhaps set in chain a desire for excellence is a very good thing. On recent leadership assessments, I have had some great leaders, but their paddling was hardly competent, this is a skills creep, where we should be driving towards skills excellence.

Ian Dallaway wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:23 pm
The Personal Paddling awards, the Coaching awards and the Leadership awards will obviously share lots of common ground, as determined by the chosen environment. How can it not?
I'm sure the assessment process of the leadership and coaching awards currently is, and will be in the future, robust enough to prove competence in that given environment.

We need the detail of the new awards before we can see what that common ground is.
Then we should be able to see how the individual strands link together.
We as a community are talking about structure, the content as I understand it will come afterwards.

Still as ever, it's not what you do, but the way that you do it, that's what gets results.......ha ha ha.

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Adrian Cooper
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Re: Personal Performance Awards - review

Post by Adrian Cooper » Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:06 pm

The transferrable skills of an old jazz standard to a pop number by Bananarama

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Re: Personal Performance Awards - review

Post by Chalky723 » Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:51 pm

To be honest, for most paddlers this is something for the peeps running the coaching course to worry about or the club officials who need to make sure the club meets the latest requirements. It makes not a jot of difference to "normal" paddlers.

I have no idea what "official" qualifications any of my peer group have aside from WWSR - quite simply it bears no relevance.

We've all met through paddling or friends of friends & people are invited on trips dependent on their ability to paddle or willingness to stretch themselves.

I think coaching is valuable & very important - but it's not my place to worry about the names of the pre-requisites (or not) that the coaches have to fulfil.....

D
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Re: Personal Performance Awards - review

Post by DaveBland » Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:36 am

Psamathe wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:09 pm
If BC are having a radical re-think have they considered the full breadth of possibilities or are they just doing a marketing/PR re-branding.
Nail and head.
dave

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Re: Personal Performance Awards - review

Post by Simon Westgarth » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:15 pm

DaveBland wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:36 am
Psamathe wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:09 pm
If BC are having a radical re-think have they considered the full breadth of possibilities or are they just doing a marketing/PR re-branding.
Nail and head.
I understand that it is a root to branch review being undertaken.

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Re: Personal Performance Awards - review

Post by LucyLou19 » Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:23 pm

My 2p's.

I think the current standard of 4* or 5* or whatever it is called now is fine. There is 100% an argument for an international standard guiding award, an IFMG standard award.

Because someone with a history of paddling advanced white water in the UK and the alps, wouldnt neccesarily be the person I'd want to follow down a big volume rapid on the Zam, Ottawa or Nile for example- and if im paying for a qualified guide, thats what I'd want.

If there is a problem in people being passed with inappropriate personal standards I think fundamentally this is the fault of the assessors. In Dec 2015 I did my 4* training and then in March 2016 my 4* assessment. Because of the providers willingness to run this course on a river which was empty I definatley do not think he assessed to the standard of the award I was trained for. People had issues with rolling (and I know there is an argument as a leader you shouldn't be going upside down), no one was assessed on a simple boat chase unless it happened on the course, and the river was so empty id barley call it class II.

I also dont think you can actually seperate out leadership and personal paddling in an advanced water environment. A true class IV/V paddler should be able to fluidly interchange a leadership role, rather than blindly follow someone down a class IV/V rapid.

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Re: Personal Performance Awards - review

Post by Chris Bolton » Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:58 pm

As above, the important question is what, and who, the awards are for. Before I paddled, I sailed and climbed; in both sports, I learned from my peers and by experience, not by formal training, and I took the same approach to learning about paddlesport. In doing so, I didn't have any use for Stars. It concerns me slightly that the emphasis in several posts above is about training, rather than assessment. I don't think you can learn everything from training; you need experience. Training solely for an assessment is not good; I've met some holders of 4 star who were trained just to gain the award, and who I wouldn't have a lot of confidence in if things turned tricky.

More recently, I've retired from work and may be looking for people to paddle with, so being able to say I' have '4 star' could be helpful. I'm also assisting (not leading) a school DoE scheme, as a volunteer, and concluded that it would help if I had an assessment of my leadership (and, by implication, personal competence). So I need to be assessed at 3 Star, then do training, then assessment at 4 star. Although I'd be happy just to be assessed on my leadership experience, straight off, I don't mind the training, because it seems to be the best way to find out what the 'expected' skills and knowledge for the assessments is - I know this isn't supposed to be so, but there seems to me to be a 'way it should be done', which contrasts with my experience that there are many ways. In writing this, I've referred to 4 star because "sea kayak leader" and "Sea Kayak Leader" seem too easily confused, but I know that change is now made.

So, what am I saying? Personal performance awards are sought for different reasons, and the structure needs to recognise that. People who want an award because they will be legally responsible for others have a different requirement to those whose responsibility is only 'duty of care' in a peer group, and different again from those (possibly young people) who like to measure their progress with awards rather than paddles completed.

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Re: Personal Performance Awards - review

Post by Simon Westgarth » Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:47 am

LucyLou19 wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:23 pm
If there is a problem in people being passed with inappropriate personal standards I think fundamentally this is the fault of the assessors. In Dec 2015 I did my 4* training and then in March 2016 my 4* assessment. Because of the providers willingness to run this course on a river which was empty I definitely do not think he assessed to the standard of the award I was trained for. People had issues with rolling (and I know there is an argument as a leader you shouldn't be going upside down), no one was assessed on a simple boat chase unless it happened on the course, and the river was so empty id barley call it class II.

I also dont think you can actually separate out leadership and personal paddling in an advanced water environment. A true class IV/V paddler should be able to fluidly interchange a leadership role, rather than blindly follow someone down a class IV/V rapid.
At 3 Star a roll on white water should be reliable, if not being able to roll is still an issue when paddlers go for assessment, they have clearly been ill-informed.

One of the fallout's from the move 10+ years ago to create leadership awards under the 4 ad 5 Star banner, is that unless paddlers are legally responsible, that is 18 or over, they can not progress through a scheme that until they are 18, in affect does not welcome them. Also on leadership training courses, there has often been too much focus on leading, and less on personal performance. Thus in some cases the standard of paddling has arguably dropped. This comes out in MWE Training, when trainee coaches understanding on their paddling on white water is challenged, and noticeably falls short of excellence or even skilful. Therefore in my view there is a need to create a demand for more skilful paddlers with a wider breath of experience and a richness to their paddling. As such less about levels, more about paddling.

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