Access and facility charging at Canolfan Tryweryn

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gp.girl
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Re: Access and facility charging at Canolfan Tryweryn

Post by gp.girl » Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:31 pm

John K wrote:
Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:01 pm
Franky wrote: It couldn't lead to that, because law-abiding paddlers only launch from public rights of way, which landowners can't charge to use.
There are many places where we access across private land with permission without any fee being charged. In fact I can only think of two places where a fee is charged for access to a river and they are both operated by paddlers.

Whilst charging per paddler might be a legitimate choice for land owners to make I don't think it would be very popular as a general principle.
Tees, Tryweryn, Wye at Symonds Yat, Lake Bala, Rother in Kent (per boat), reservoirs if you can get on them at all. Any others?
Can roll ;)

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DaveBland
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Re: Access and facility charging at Canolfan Tryweryn

Post by DaveBland » Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:49 pm

It sounds like CT should just charge a token small fee for entry to their land to anyone wishing to be on it - walkers, paddlers etc.
Then if you want to make use of the shuttle and changing, there's a wristband or whatever that you can buy that covers that.
That would suit all eventualities and with parking, should make them enough cash to cover the costs without any ambiguity over river access.
dave

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Re: Access and facility charging at Canolfan Tryweryn

Post by PaddyW » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:06 pm

Tryweryn: Great facility and well worth £7 for a day's paddling, (driving, walking, parking on their land and having access to the river, hot showers, toilets, cafe).

CIWW - Cost to me: £17 for a day on an overcrowded course plus have to waste half an hour filling out forms in triplicate every time I go with the exact same information that I entered last year and have to pay £5 for the privilege of doing so. Not worth the hassle or expense.

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Re: Access and facility charging at Canolfan Tryweryn

Post by twicezero » Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:23 pm

gp.girl wrote:
Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:31 pm
John K wrote:
Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:01 pm
Franky wrote: It couldn't lead to that, because law-abiding paddlers only launch from public rights of way, which landowners can't charge to use.
There are many places where we access across private land with permission without any fee being charged. In fact I can only think of two places where a fee is charged for access to a river and they are both operated by paddlers.

Whilst charging per paddler might be a legitimate choice for land owners to make I don't think it would be very popular as a general principle.
Tees, Tryweryn, Wye at Symonds Yat, Lake Bala, Rother in Kent (per boat), reservoirs if you can get on them at all. Any others?
There are a number of places on the Wye where I pay a couple of quid to get on or off. Hoarwithy, Whitney Toll Bridge, couple of camp sites. some have a way to pay, some have honesty boxes. We've contacted a local owner to arrange a fee where there was a great B&B but not any advertised or public access.

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Re: Access and facility charging at Canolfan Tryweryn

Post by feedbackproblem » Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:48 pm

twicezero wrote:
Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:23 pm
gp.girl wrote:
Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:31 pm
John K wrote:
Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:01 pm

There are many places where we access across private land with permission without any fee being charged. In fact I can only think of two places where a fee is charged for access to a river and they are both operated by paddlers.

Whilst charging per paddler might be a legitimate choice for land owners to make I don't think it would be very popular as a general principle.
Tees, Tryweryn, Wye at Symonds Yat, Lake Bala, Rother in Kent (per boat), reservoirs if you can get on them at all. Any others?
There are a number of places on the Wye where I pay a couple of quid to get on or off. Hoarwithy, Whitney Toll Bridge, couple of camp sites. some have a way to pay, some have honesty boxes. We've contacted a local owner to arrange a fee where there was a great B&B but not any advertised or public access.
Linton Lock (Ouse), Sleningford Watermill (Ure), Mile End Mill (Dee) and of course HPP and Tees Barrage which are both accessible from "free bits of river" if you were that way inclined.

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morsey
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Re: Access and facility charging at Canolfan Tryweryn

Post by morsey » Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:49 am

PaddyW wrote:
Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:06 pm
CIWW - Cost to me: £17 for a day on an overcrowded course plus have to waste half an hour filling out forms in triplicate every time I go with the exact same information that I entered last year and have to pay £5 for the privilege of doing so. Not worth the hassle or expense.
Do you go to Lee Valley?

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DaveBland
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Re: Access and facility charging at Canolfan Tryweryn

Post by DaveBland » Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:42 am

Blimey! 20 quid for a days paddling when there's no ware elsewhere.
What is the problem?
dave

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John K
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Re: Access and facility charging at Canolfan Tryweryn

Post by John K » Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:17 am

There appears to be one school of thought that says we have a right to park wherever we want to and access rivers across other people's property without ever having to pay anything. I don't think we do have that right, and unless we get land reform similar to Scotland that's unlikely to change.

The main "access" debate going back decades has been about the right to paddle along a river, and it seems to be much more accepted these days that we *can* pretty much paddle where we want to.

The sticking point is always going to be access *to* the water as in many cases there simply isn't public access to the put in points we want to use.

Canolfan Tryweryn charges for access to the river across its land. This is something within its powers that most paddlers appear to think is reasonable although some don't agree.

For me the biggest problem is that CW refuse to be up front about it and weasel around pretending it's just a "facilities" fee. This obfuscation, along with insisting that paddlers sign on before they get on the river, makes it look like the NGB is claiming control of the *river* and not just its banks. This is why it appears to go against policy.

Charging for access to a river across private land is a defensible decision. CW have made this decision and need to stop pretending.

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Re: Access and facility charging at Canolfan Tryweryn

Post by gp.girl » Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:28 am

morsey wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:49 am
PaddyW wrote:
Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:06 pm
CIWW - Cost to me: £17 for a day on an overcrowded course plus have to waste half an hour filling out forms in triplicate every time I go with the exact same information that I entered last year and have to pay £5 for the privilege of doing so. Not worth the hassle or expense.
Do you go to Lee Valley?
£25 for 5 hours on Lee Valley. No forms though and had a great day even if it was bumper kayaks :)
Can roll ;)

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Re: Access and facility charging at Canolfan Tryweryn

Post by PaddyW » Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:21 am

morsey wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:49 am
PaddyW wrote:
Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:06 pm
CIWW - Cost to me: £17 for a day on an overcrowded course plus have to waste half an hour filling out forms in triplicate every time I go with the exact same information that I entered last year and have to pay £5 for the privilege of doing so. Not worth the hassle or expense.
Do you go to Lee Valley?
About 1-2 times per year.

Not sure how the initial proposal, (i.e. people "should be charged for specific facilities that they use".), is supposed to work. Do you pay someone to follow everyone who enters the centre to record individual use of any facility, (e.g. entered facility = 50p, drove on road in facility = £1, parked in car park = £1 per hour, walked on path for 100m = 50p, went to toilet: no 1s = 25p, No 2s = 50p, etc etc etc). Or do you have video surveillance everywhere or drones following everyone? Perhaps someone could clarify?

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Re: Access and facility charging at Canolfan Tryweryn

Post by swiftgit » Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:29 pm

Maybe they could charge so much per litre of boat volume maybe with a discount for open boat 🤣

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Re: Access and facility charging at Canolfan Tryweryn

Post by box2k2 » Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:56 pm

jmmoxon wrote:
Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:51 pm
Amazing the similarity of discussion to when they introduced parking charges in 2010 (charging for paddling the river having been dropped in 2008 - from £14):
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=64141

& background to the current charges:
http://www.songofthepaddle.co.uk/forum/ ... ales-board

Mike
I never had a problem with the 2010 onward charges. It's a model that seems to work quite well for bike trail centres. CT just seemed bad at ensuring people actually paid for parking.

Comparisons with HPP, Lea Valley etc seem misplaced as these are all completely artificial sites. At it's core CT is natural river and would be there rafting centre or not.

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Re: Access and facility charging at Canolfan Tryweryn

Post by jmmoxon » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:40 pm

It is indeed, but would not be paddleable most weekends if it weren't managed...

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Re: Access and facility charging at Canolfan Tryweryn

Post by Chalky723 » Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:39 pm

PaddyW wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:21 am

Not sure how the initial proposal, (i.e. people "should be charged for specific facilities that they use".), is supposed to work.****Waffle Snipped**** Perhaps someone could clarify?
Turnstiles, coin operated doors to toilets, changing rooms. Barrier on car park. Vests (spend some of the earned money actually policing it) - you'd soon identify non-payers & it would also give the impression that it was a managed site rather than a "normal" river

Loads of ideas out there but if they can't be bothered to implement or enforce them is it any surprise that people don't follow them?

As an aside - is it a legal requirement to sign on the river then? I've signed on but not off & have never had any follow up to make sure I'm still alive, plus only the car driver tends to do it....

D
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Adrian Cooper
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Re: Access and facility charging at Canolfan Tryweryn

Post by Adrian Cooper » Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:01 am

Chalky723 wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:39 pm
it would also give the impression that it was a managed site rather than a "normal" river
But it is a 'normal' river which is why we are discussing it.

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Re: Access and facility charging at Canolfan Tryweryn

Post by PaddyW » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:56 am

Adrian Cooper wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:01 am
But it is a 'normal' river which is why we are discussing it.
Most rivers are not dam released with release times tailored to benefit the paddling community.
Most rivers do not have such great facilities on private land to benefit the paddling community. Facilities cost money and as such it is not unreasonable to pay towards costs. If you enter someone's land you are using their facilities.
As such it is not a "normal" river in UK.

I think some people mistake the right to navigate with right to do what they want on private land. Would you like general public parking on your driveway or traipsing through your back yard?

There are always people who do not like paying for things and will do what they can to avoid doing so.

There are other places in UK where you have to gain access to the river and pay to park or put on.

The Dart gets overcrowded in season with lots of anti social parking on local roads because people don't want to pay to use the Country Park.

Time for some people to get more realistic and pay towards having facilities where they exist.

Same applies in other sports such as MTB: some places runs are free, some you have to pay to park etc, others have voluntary contributions.

If you don't like paying at a specific site then paddle elsewhere.

I am still not sure what is being suggested as a better solution than current set up at Tryweryn. Why not do a poll? I think you would find that most people are ok with current set up.

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Re: Access and facility charging at Canolfan Tryweryn

Post by Chalky723 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:12 pm

PaddyW wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:56 am
Time for some people to get more realistic and pay towards having facilities where they exist.
It's the last time I'm going to say it as I'm bored of repeating myself to the hard of understanding - I do pay for the facility I use - 1 parking space. (I quite happily pay to park at the Dart too).

A river is not a facility.

D

(On a side note - I went to the cinema yesterday & took my own nibbles! I'm just a crim through & through!!)
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Re: Access and facility charging at Canolfan Tryweryn

Post by SimonMW » Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:13 pm

No one complains about paying for CIWW yet we get complaints for paying for CTWWC. Are paddlers happy the centre is shutdown and releases are random as and when the water board want them and not advertised? As an occasional visitor it seems a good resource when it's dry in Devon.
CIWW is not really comparable. CT has water releases regardless, and the centre isn't in control of them apart from only on special occasions where they will pay for a release. But that is rare. CIWW has pumps that cost over £500-600 an hour to run. Yet it still costs less to go to than CT. In addition, CIWW don't charge double the price for non BC or CW members!

That's my real gripe with Tryweryn. If non members only paid £1 or £2 more than BC and CW members, fine. But double?! That's just a rip off. And it's the main reason that we have rarely gone up there in the last few years, whereas we used to go all the time. I don't mind paying for car parking, and I don't mind paying for a shuttle (if I select to use that service), but I don't see why I should be subsidising and making up the income shortfall that members aren't paying for. And the unfairness in the pricing makes me even more resistant to joining BC

People can say "CT can charge whatever they like" That is very true! But the fact that people like me no longer go up there because they have priced us out of going for the weekend, means that the current charging structure is losing them money, not gaining it. I'd go there for £8, but not £14. They do not have anything like the same overheads as CIWW. If they make the pricing more reasonable we would go more.

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Re: Access and facility charging at Canolfan Tryweryn

Post by SimonMW » Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:18 pm

Most rivers are not dam released with release times tailored to benefit the paddling community.
Most rivers do not have such great facilities on private land to benefit the paddling community. Facilities cost money and as such it is not unreasonable to pay towards costs. If you enter someone's land you are using their facilities.
As such it is not a "normal" river in UK.
The Tryweryn has had pretty sporadic releases recently, and we are already getting close to it's shut down time again. Last year that went on for months!
Same applies in other sports such as MTB: some places runs are free, some you have to pay to park etc, others have voluntary contributions.
Do those places charge you double if you aren't members of British Cycling or whatever it is called?
If you don't like paying at a specific site then paddle elsewhere.
We do. And such avoidances do not help CT raise money. In other words they are shooting themselves in the foot with the current charging structure. There's a lot of people who used to go, but who no longer don't.

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Re: Access and facility charging at Canolfan Tryweryn

Post by John K » Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:51 pm

PaddyW wrote: The Dart gets overcrowded in season with lots of anti social parking on local roads because people don't want to pay to use the Country Park.
The River Dart Country Park doesn't charge paddlers to access the river across its land like Canolfan Tryweryn does. The only charge is for car parking.

Just think how much worse it would be if they tried to switch to the CT model.

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Re: Access and facility charging at Canolfan Tryweryn

Post by MikeVeal » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:52 am

Chalky723 wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:12 pm
PaddyW wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:56 am
Time for some people to get more realistic and pay towards having facilities where they exist.
It's the last time I'm going to say it as I'm bored of repeating myself to the hard of understanding - I do pay for the facility I use - 1 parking space. (I quite happily pay to park at the Dart too).

A river is not a facility.

D

(On a side note - I went to the cinema yesterday & took my own nibbles! I'm just a crim through & through!!)
So you don't access and egress from CT land?

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Pam Bell
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Re: Access and facility charging at Canolfan Tryweryn

Post by Pam Bell » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:32 pm

The themes emerging from this discussion seem to be:
A) Do charges at CT impact on the wider access campaign?;
B) For what can (not necessarily should) CT charge and remain within CW/BC access policy?
C) What would be the solution?
D) What would be a reasonable charge?

Do charges at CT impact on the wider access campaign?
Canoe Wales wrote:The facility fees charged at Tryweryn are for the use of the facilities on the site, but not passage on the water itself…
…Paddlers are welcome to enter the water from an alternative access point and pass through the site without paying the fee
By stressing that their charging system does not apply to linear access and passage Canoe Wales acknowledge that the charging system can impact on the wider access campaign. However there is a body of opinion that they have not succeeded in making the separation.
John Kennedy wrote:I am also very uncomfortable with the situation at the Treweryn as it does seem to undermine our position on access, despite protestations to the contrary.
Adrian Cooper wrote:As a consequence, whereas they could make a small charge for parking and access to the river would be for free, they really are asking for a payment to paddle the river contrary to their stance that rivers are free publicly navigable routes.
Mike A wrote:Funding needs to be smarter than current method, which is why i really liked it when we paid for parking only, otherwise people will use it as a stick to fight access. IE, if we are tring to argue that a footpath to a river equates to launch spot, its hard when people can freely walk to the Tryweryn, but then to launch you have to pay.
John Kennedy wrote:I am also very uncomfortable with the situation at the Treweryn as it does seem to undermine our position on access, despite protestations to the contrary.
Adrian Cooper wrote:As a consequence, whereas they could make a small charge for parking and access to the river would be for free, they really are asking for a payment to paddle the river contrary to their stance that rivers are free publicly navigable routes.
There is a body of considered opinion that the current system of charging at CT does impact on the wider access campaign.


For what can (not necessarily should) CT charge, and remain within CW/BC policy?
Chalky723 wrote:A river is not a facility.
Canoe Wales wrote:That public or private rights to the use of waterways do not in themselves grant paddlers any rights to cross land to access those waterways.
John Kennedy wrote:Charging for access to a river across private land is a defensible decision. CW have made this decision and need to stop pretending.”
…“The "facilities" fee clearly includes a launch fee, and it's perfectly legitimate to charge paddlers to use private land to access a river. I think that CW have got themselves in a bit of a twist and in trying to find the right way to describe it have ended up with a description that is a bit weasely and unclear. They'd be better off just calling it a launch fee.
Mike Veal wrote:I'm not trying to justify the charges, only the fact that CT have a right to charge what they like for access to their land.
I'm trying to say that if you want to access the river from their land, then you should pay their charges. If you don't want to pay, you shouldn't use their land.
There seems to be a consensus that Canolfan Tryweryn is perfectly justified in charging for access to, and permitted use of, the land it leases.


What would be the solution?
box2k2 wrote:I never had a problem with the 2010 onward charges. It's a model that seems to work quite well for bike trail centres. CT just seemed bad at ensuring people actually paid for parking.
Adrian Cooper wrote:I see your term 'the facility' but of course it is a collection of facilities. If CW had done something like was done at Symonds Yat, just move the rocks around and then let people use it or like BC have done at the Dart, just buy a strip of land and allow members to access there no-one would be complaining. What there is is a collection of teaching blocks, slalom control huts, showers, toilets, carparks, etc all of which need maintenance and upkeep and for which they are making a charge even though I suspect the majority of paddlers make little use of.
DaveBland wrote:It sounds like CT should just charge a token small fee for entry to their land to anyone wishing to be on it - walkers, paddlers etc.
Then if you want to make use of the shuttle and changing, there's a wristband or whatever that you can buy that covers that.
That would suit all eventualities and with parking, should make them enough cash to cover the costs without any ambiguity over river access.
John Kennedy wrote:For me the biggest problem is that CW refuse to be up front about it and weasel around pretending it's just a "facilities" fee. This obfuscation, along with insisting that paddlers sign on before they get on the river, makes it look like the NGB is claiming control of the *river* and not just its banks. This is why it appears to go against policy.
Starter for 10:

All reference to the River Pass to be deleted.

Basic facility charge to include parking (per car, not per person), access to and permitted use of the land (up to the water’s edge) which comprises the CT site, and permitted areas of the main building e.g. toilets. Permitted use of the land to include launching and landing of boats. An honesty box for those who arrive at the site under their own steam, for an appropriate contribution to maintenance of the basic facility.

A map detailing the extent of the CT leased land would be useful.

Paddlers could launch and land on the site, launch elsewhere and land at the site, or launch at the site and paddle downriver, provided they have paid the basic facility fee to cover launching/landing/parking if they do any of these.

A separate charge for specific facilities not included in the basic facility, e.g. keycode for shower/changing room doors, wristband for shuttle etc



What would be a reasonable charge?
What the market will stand!
Costings obtained over the years have shown that the income formerly derived by charging paddlers ‘per person’ can be replaced by appropriate parking/facility charges, adequately enforced.

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DaveBland
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Re: Access and facility charging at Canolfan Tryweryn

Post by DaveBland » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:20 am

Wow,you are the master of the quoting option. That must have taken ages!

For me, CW are very clear in their statement that their charging is not for passage down the river. They even say up front that anyone is entitled to pass down the river from outside their land.

But yes I agree, their charging structure is totally messed up and nonsensical, plus quite possibly working against them in that it's seen as prohibitively high by many. But that's up to them how they do that.

Ultimately you are right that they could have a 'cleaner' and clearer charging structure that wouldn't even need them to have a statement to clarify things – but ultimately is there really a conflict with the access debate – as they clearly state they are not charging for passage down the river?
dave

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Re: Access and facility charging at Canolfan Tryweryn

Post by DaveBland » Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:25 am

Sorry Pam, should have said... the fact that this thread has well over 2000 views would suggest that CW really were out of order to dismiss your concerns for the Board meeting. Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the protocol for such things. Hopefully they'll take note. They really should.
dave

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Adrian Cooper
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Re: Access and facility charging at Canolfan Tryweryn

Post by Adrian Cooper » Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:42 am

I wouldn't be surprise if it had already been used but, if I was from another stakeholding interest in the access debate, the fact that CW charge their own members for using a river they look like they own would be ammunition for me to say that my argument that paddlers cannot use 'my' river is valid.

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Re: Access and facility charging at Canolfan Tryweryn

Post by Pam Bell » Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:52 am

DaveBland wrote:
Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:20 am
Ultimately you are right that they could have a 'cleaner' and clearer charging structure that wouldn't even need them to have a statement to clarify things – but ultimately is there really a conflict with the access debate – as they clearly state they are not charging for passage down the river?
Canolfan Tryweryn wrote:FACILITY FEE
The Facility Fee for paddlers helps us to provide and maintain the world class facilities at the National White Water Centre. If you are a NGB member you will need to bring your membership card with you in order to receive the discounted price. Upon paying your fee you will be issued with a parking ticket and river pass:
River Pass? Yes, I'd say there is a conflict with the access debate!

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Re: Access and facility charging at Canolfan Tryweryn

Post by frankthesurf » Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:27 am

In 1985 ish we where challenged by the the land owner at the get out of Fairy Glen ie Beaver Pool.

He asked us for money for paddling and getting out. Of course we replied NO.

His answer

Why not YOUR GOVERNING BODY CHARGES YOU !!

so how do you answer that one?

I've always voiced concern over charging on CT. Now with the new bill going through landowners may pick up on this ( as one has on the DEE) and start charging for all access.

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Adrian Cooper
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Re: Access and facility charging at Canolfan Tryweryn

Post by Adrian Cooper » Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:09 am

frankthesurf wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:27 am
so how do you answer that one?
It's actually a simple little legal matter.

Assuming you were on his land, then you were trespassing and his remedy is to ask you to leave and to sue you for any damage you may have caused.

If he wanted to make a charge, he should have established the terms of such a contract (since a contract it would have been) before the service (your use of his land) was provided.

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Re: Access and facility charging at Canolfan Tryweryn

Post by Neptune » Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:25 pm

On that note, Trespass is normally dealt with as a 'civil' offence as opposed to a 'criminal' offence unless it is on railway property (don't ask me why?).

It would therfore probably cost him a lot more to take you to court than any money he would recover, unless that is, you have caused a lot of criminal damage to his land and or property.

I have been following this thread from the start, very interesting.

Peter

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Re: Access and facility charging at Canolfan Tryweryn

Post by AdurYakker » Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:45 pm

As a (fairly) local and regular paddler to the T, I had a few thoughts on the matter.

Amongst my peer group, all of whom are fairly young and not full of pocket, there is consensus that the fee at the centre is simply too high. It's seen as somewhat of a deterrent to those in our group who are new to the sport, and seems to funnel regular paddlers into a Canoe Wales membership.

I, and many others use the shuttle when we pay our fee, but this and parking in rural Wales doesn't really justify £14, especially with an average of three laps per paddle. This is even more ridiculous for those who only paddle the lower and make zero trips on the shuttle bus. It seems to just be a bum deal for locals to the centre.

Lastly, if people are being charged a fee for paddling, and a shuttle, how about a more obvious way of telling who has paid? It is really really easy to get away without paying at the Tryweryn, there is nothing other than a wristband (which often comes off in the water anyway) to identify the legitimate customers of the centre. Make it more difficult to get away with, and reduce the fee, to maybe £10 for non members (this justifies the parking and shuttle) and I doubt there will be many problems!

p.s: I'd happily pay £5 to park my car and walk up each time without using the shuttle or changing rooms, and I doubt I'm alone!

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