Pinned paddler and Rescue - Lots to discuss...

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DaveBland
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Pinned paddler and Rescue - Lots to discuss...

Post by DaveBland » Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:07 pm

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Re: Pinned paddler and Rescue - Lots to discuss...

Post by waverley610 » Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:31 pm

"As I was calculating the risks of what I was about to do, none of that mattered. It was my birthday and I just wanted that guy to have another birthday.

"My brain went into automatic mode, and I knew that if I didn't act immediately, we would be recovering a body."
These are the do'ers of this world and I'm thankful we still have them. Great job Obadiah Jenkins & Co

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Re: Pinned paddler and Rescue - Lots to discuss...

Post by BobbyR » Sun Aug 20, 2017 8:35 am

The paddlers were unaware that someone else, 64-year-old Daniel Hartung of Indian, followed several minutes behind. Hartung was in a recreational kayak designed for calm water such as lakes. Although he wore a personal flotation device, Hartung also donned a bicycle helmet and chest waders, neither suite...
Wow. Where to begin with that?

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Re: Pinned paddler and Rescue - Lots to discuss...

Post by Poke » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:04 am

BobbyR wrote:
Sun Aug 20, 2017 8:35 am
The paddlers were unaware that someone else, 64-year-old Daniel Hartung of Indian, followed several minutes behind. Hartung was in a recreational kayak designed for calm water such as lakes. Although he wore a personal flotation device, Hartung also donned a bicycle helmet and chest waders, neither suite...
Wow. Where to begin with that?
Everyone makes mistakes. He could well have researched kayaking, improvised with the kit and thought he was well equipped. I'm sure many of us have probably done the same with other sports in the past, where if we'd had an accident, we'd have been bashed by those more experienced for being ill equipped. Probably best not to read too much into that.
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Re: Pinned paddler and Rescue - Lots to discuss...

Post by BobbyR » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:44 am

Everyone makes mistakes. He could well have researched kayaking, improvised with the kit and thought he was well equipped. I'm sure many of us have probably done the same with other sports in the past, where if we'd had an accident, we'd have been bashed by those more experienced for being ill equipped. Probably best not to read too much into that.
I was not passing judgement. If someone wants to run class 4 in a rec-boat then good luck to them, neither his motivations nor prior experience are given. There is plenty of footage of experienced people going down rapids on inflatable toys and judgement does not get passed.

I just did not know where to begin discussing this. The thread title is quite accurate, both from the perspective of the rescuer's actions and that of the rescued.

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Re: Pinned paddler and Rescue - Lots to discuss...

Post by DaveBland » Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:20 pm

I guess the wisdom of running G4 in a rec boat with not the best equipment is self evident.
For me, there are a few points that are worth noting that are relevant to any rescue, to be learned.

Of course the guy that did the rescue did a good job and brave thing. Especially as it wasn't even anyone in his 'group', just a random paddler.
But as I was watching it I was getting angrier and angrier. It just took so long for anyone to do or try anything different.
It should have been a simple live bait right from early on. As soon as it was clear that he wasn't budging from just hanging on the rope.
It took forever, even though it worked out in the end.

The lesson to learn is that it's simply not okay to keep trying the same thing if its not working. The 'victim' will just get colder and weaker and the quicker they can be freed, the better shape they will be in to handle what happens after they are freed. This will be safer for them and safer for whoever is rescuing.
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Re: Pinned paddler and Rescue - Lots to discuss...

Post by Chalky723 » Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:36 pm

DaveBland wrote:
Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:20 pm
It should have been a simple live bait right from early on. As soon as it was clear that he wasn't budging from just hanging on the rope.
I don't think I personally could have attached a rope to myself & jumped into that situation - what if the log didn't give way? You'd end up right next to him or worse.

Rope under the armpits & try to pull upstream - from both sides if possible would have been a good option to try rather than just watching him hang onto the line though...

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Re: Pinned paddler and Rescue - Lots to discuss...

Post by Adrian Cooper » Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:47 am

I'm always wary of criticising with the benefit of 20:20 hindsight to these situations. Notwithstanding any video editing, it looks like there was 2 - 2.5 minutes between having got the chap holding onto the rope and trying to haul him up to the chap on the bank deciding he just needed to dive in. This including a period to establish that hauling isn't working even after another body joins in. I'm not even sure it was obvious that there was a log under the water?

Maybe what was wanted was what Morsey did on the Lyn a little while ago, lower someone down to attach a line to the victim's BA and drag him up and back. But whether you can decide this in two minutes......?

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Re: Pinned paddler and Rescue - Lots to discuss...

Post by jamiemagee » Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:33 pm

The victims BA probably wasn't capable of being used as a harness anyway. I think as it says in the article instinct takes over. You can't let someone drown if you can do something. The guy who jumped in clearly was kitted up and confident of those around him helping if he needed it.

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Re: Pinned paddler and Rescue - Lots to discuss...

Post by DaveBland » Wed Aug 23, 2017 1:55 am

Adrian Cooper wrote:
Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:47 am
I'm always wary of criticising with the benefit of 20:20 hindsight to these situations. Notwithstanding any video editing, it looks like there was 2 - 2.5 minutes between having got the chap holding onto the rope and trying to haul him up to the chap on the bank deciding he just needed to dive in. This including a period to establish that hauling isn't working even after another body joins in. I'm not even sure it was obvious that there was a log under the water?

Maybe what was wanted was what Morsey did on the Lyn a little while ago, lower someone down to attach a line to the victim's BA and drag him up and back. But whether you can decide this in two minutes......?
I tend to agree apart from with the timing. Lowering someone down or pretty much wading out to them [The eddy above him was pretty calm] would have been easy and quick to set up. Especially as there was a bunch of slack water below.

My only issue is with the time taken. It was a long time on the video even disregarding extra time lost in editing.

It is harsh to criticize – particularly as this was a bunch of random folks on the bank, not a pre-set up safety group – but it is good to hear folks opinions as it all helps inform decisions and effective thinking if ever in a similar situation.
dave

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Re: Pinned paddler and Rescue - Lots to discuss...

Post by chriscw » Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:43 pm

I note that the article does say the casualty could not hear any instruction being shouted to him. This is pretty often the case and does make rescue difficult.
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Re: Pinned paddler and Rescue - Lots to discuss...

Post by Adrian Cooper » Wed Aug 23, 2017 3:05 pm

DaveBland wrote:
Wed Aug 23, 2017 1:55 am
it is good to hear folks opinions as it all helps inform decisions and effective thinking if ever in a similar situation.
Absolutely!

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Re: Pinned paddler and Rescue - Lots to discuss...

Post by RichA » Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:31 pm

I've been in a (very) few high stress situations, a few of them rescues. One thing that I often think about when looking back at them is "where did that idea come from?". You don't have 5 minutes to ponder a solution, you have to react almost instantly and decisively. I absolutely think that discussions like that are really valuable sources of "ideas" in situations where you don't have time to think. Ideas that appear to pop up from your subconscious on the spur of the moment, are (usually) actually bits of information you had stored away in the past without realising.
Sometimes as a result of discussions like this (lots of ideas being thrown about, you may file them away for safe keeping just in case), and sometimes just as a result of idle "what if" pontification. Not sure if it's just me, but I'll sometimes imagine made up scenarios and solutions to them. Not intentionally, but if I'm daydreaming something will popup and I'll try to 'solve it'. I think in high stress quick 'thinking' situations, all this background information is useful.
Lucky guy anyway, the stars aligned with a willing volunteer swimmer and an easily displaced bit of wood!

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Re: Pinned paddler and Rescue - Lots to discuss...

Post by morsey » Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:54 am

The take away from this video, do a safety course and get your buddies to do one also.

Dude was brave diving in, probably knew he could get pinned also.

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Re: Pinned paddler and Rescue - Lots to discuss...

Post by chriscw » Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:34 am

Indeed practice rescues so they become as instinctive as possible. As others have said to the white water safety and rescue course, and if you have done it before maybe do it again.
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