British Canoeing - Trespass Policy

Inland paddling
BC Waterways Env
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Re: British Canoeing - Trespass Policy

Post by BC Waterways Env » Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:21 am

bouncyboatbloke wrote:
Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:48 pm
Ditto the Rambliars, who kick started their campaign for the right to access the countryside with a mass trespass on Kinder Scout, [ although in truth most of those attending were from the local communist party who saw it as an opportunity to stick it to the local land owning gentry].
Exactly. The Ramblers, and all 'official' countryside access groups (Open Space Society and Youth hostel Assoc especially) at the time specifically disavowed the kinder Mass Trespass at the time. Most of the people involved in Kinder had previously had no involvement at all in the Right to Roam movement. The galvanising effect of the trespass wasn't the action itself, but public shock at the severity of the punishments for the protagonists. But there were a great many in the Right to Roam movement who still considered it had been counter-productive for many, many years after. Benny Rothman (organiser of the mass trespass) and Tom Stephenson (most prominent of those with the Ramblers, and a civil servant who led the development of the National Parks Act 1949) held a deep mutual resentment towards each other well into the 1980s/90s because of these disagreements over the most productive route forward on the Right to Roam.

We can debate now what effect the Kinder Mass Trepass had - it certainly stuck in the public's mind and helped act as a 'keystone' for those campaigning for access to build the story of exclusion. But without the work of Stephenson and many others working within the civil service and in Ramblers etc change never would have happened. We owe both (and MANY others) a big debt.

It should also be remembered that the Kinder Mass Trespass was in 1932 - the CROW Act (which still doesn't fully solve the issues on land let alone water) didn't come until 2003.

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DaveBland
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Re: British Canoeing - Trespass Policy

Post by DaveBland » Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:00 pm

Paddling-wise how can it be a mass trespass if it's on a river that we have a right to be on?

The thing about any mass action is that to the uninitiated public, it just looks bad and unruly. It gets awareness for sure but is seen as "irresponsible river use" by Joe Public rather than anything else and the real message is lost.
dave

Psamathe
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Re: British Canoeing - Trespass Policy

Post by Psamathe » Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:11 pm

Sounds like the Kinder Scout protest involved other non-access related issues. I wonder if the Hoveton Little Broad/Black Horse Broad example in 1949 might be a better example (though with limited success in that the Black Horse Broad result was good but it did not change anything much beyond that one Broad).

Ian

bouncyboatbloke
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Re: British Canoeing - Trespass Policy

Post by bouncyboatbloke » Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:19 pm

It would need some sort of an angle that would cast "us" as "not the villians of the peace ", but that the public at large were able to empathise with, "us " being the Davids, and the establishment and vested interest groups being shown as the "Goliaths ", we are just merely, exercising our legal right to access, without hindrance, or obstacle natures watery Byways.
Mike

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Re: British Canoeing - Trespass Policy

Post by bouncyboatbloke » Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:22 pm

Does anybody have a celebrity kayaker best friend list???
Mike

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Re: British Canoeing - Trespass Policy

Post by jmmoxon » Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:10 pm

Interesting document from www.anglingtrust.net/core/core_picker/d ... sp?id=2277
Canoeists, rowers and anglers can coexist happily. However, there can be disputes. Here we look at the legal and practical issues surrounding public and private rights of navigation on tidal and non-tidal waters.
Although they seem to think that British Canoeing are encouraging access:
http://www.crickhowellanddistrictanglin ... ng-bodies/

Further info on angling law:
http://www.anglinglaw.co.uk/wp-content/ ... 150319.pdf

Mike
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DaveBland
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Re: British Canoeing - Trespass Policy

Post by DaveBland » Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:13 pm

bouncyboatbloke wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:19 pm
It would need some sort of an angle that would cast "us" as "not the villians of the peace ", but that the public at large were able to empathise with, "us " being the Davids, and the establishment and vested interest groups being shown as the "Goliaths ", we are just merely, exercising our legal right to access, without hindrance, or obstacle natures watery Byways.
Mike
That is very unlikely to the outcome, whatever "spin" is put on it. Quite simply a crap-load of paddlers all smashing down a small river looks irresponsible and goes against all responsible use and behaviour paddlers are claiming.
Plus there will inevitably be some wear and tear on the land from that many paddlers all at once. Plus there's always a couple of irresponsible pratts that muck about. Before you know it you have "damage caused by paddlers" as a headline and some video of someone having a piss on some private land and a few carpark beers after.
dave

nigelhatton
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Re: British Canoeing - Trespass Policy

Post by nigelhatton » Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:22 pm

If someone claims to be a landowner or a representative of a landowner and say you cannot canoe here what can you do?

A few years ago I paddled up the river that joins Southampton water, Test? Anyway there were no signs forbidding canoeing but some fella was very angry and offensive to me. I genuinely thought I was trespassing and may have missed the signs.
What would you do in similar circumstancese?

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John K
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Re: British Canoeing - Trespass Policy

Post by John K » Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:47 pm

Image

BC Waterways Env
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Re: British Canoeing - Trespass Policy

Post by BC Waterways Env » Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:32 am

jmmoxon wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:10 pm
Interesting document from www.anglingtrust.net/core/core_picker/d ... sp?id=2277
Canoeists, rowers and anglers can coexist happily. However, there can be disputes. Here we look at the legal and practical issues surrounding public and private rights of navigation on tidal and non-tidal waters.
Although they seem to think that British Canoeing are encouraging access:
http://www.crickhowellanddistrictanglin ... ng-bodies/

Further info on angling law:
http://www.anglinglaw.co.uk/wp-content/ ... 150319.pdf

Mike
The Fact Sheet Angling Trust presumably refer to here is this one - https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j ... QLCwcJdgrA

It's quite old now (2009), but I've not been able to find any 'policy' more recent.

The following statement is interesting: "Of course, as is well recognised, a public right of navigation may also arise through statute.
This is the most common way in which such rights arise."
On the vast majority of rivers where there is a Statutory Right of Navigation [in addition of course to the general PRN ;-)] canoeing is still vociferously opposed - only on those rivers where there is an active Navigation Authority is it unopposed. Examples include the Sussex Ouse, River Rother, River Itchen etc etc.

Chris

BC Waterways Env
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Re: British Canoeing - Trespass Policy

Post by BC Waterways Env » Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:43 am

We've had a few more reports of people being challenged on or by the river over that past few weeks. Please have a read through this advice (especially the full document), and if possible help us spread this message to more canoeists.

The article is at - https://www.britishcanoeing.org.uk/news ... ey-points/

I'd particularly like to flag up our incident reporting form too - we do follow up on every report we get through this - https://www.britishcanoeing.org.uk/abou ... reporting/

Thanks Chris

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Adrian Cooper
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Re: British Canoeing - Trespass Policy

Post by Adrian Cooper » Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:39 pm

BC Waterways Env wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:32 am
On the vast majority of rivers where there is a Statutory Right of Navigation [in addition of course to the general PRN ;-)] canoeing is still vociferously opposed - only on those rivers where there is an active Navigation Authority is it unopposed. Examples include the Sussex Ouse, River Rother, River Itchen etc etc.
Hampshire Avon !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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