Whitewater or White Water

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joereadickins
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Whitewater or White Water

Post by joereadickins »

In a couple of months we'll be releasing Meghalaya Rivers, a guidebook to paddling in Meghalaya, India.

We are in the last last last stages of editing and just got a message from the publishers to change all references to 'whitewater' and turn them into 'white water'.

After a few minutes on google I see that you have White Water Nepal and White Water Consultancy but also the Whitewater Grand Prix and the Whitewater and Touring community forum on UKRGB.

Are they both right? Or are kayakers too lazy to sometimes put in that extra space bar?

Arguments welcome on both sides but as we don't really want to go through the whole book and change our whitewaters to white water, arguments in favor or whitewater more welcome.

Cheers

Joe :)

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Mark Gawler
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Re: Whitewater or White Water

Post by Mark Gawler »

I would go with Whitewater, I note the Pesda Engish White water guide changed to Whitewater for the 2nd Edition.
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Re: Whitewater or White Water

Post by Mark Gawler »

Nealy says its Whitewater, which is as definitive as you'll get.
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Poke
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Re: Whitewater or White Water

Post by Poke »

You need to learn to use "Find and Replace"... 10 seconds, job done! haha.
(admittedly maybe a bit longer if you want to make sure it's not screwed everything up)

So long as you're consistent either way I can't imagine that it matters.

I suspect that their dictionary doesn't contain whitewater, so they want it changed to white water so their spell checker doesn't throw a paddy. Maybe they'll be complaining about words like 'boof' and 'chossy' next ;-)
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Re: Whitewater or White Water

Post by Franky »

Personally, I would use "white water" as a noun ("British white water"). As an adjective, I think either would be OK, but I'd favour "whitewater" to ease readability ("whitewater kayaking").

The term "whitewater" may be sufficiently established that it's acceptable as a noun, in the same way as "blacklist" or "greenhouse" or "brownstone", but to me it doesn't look quite right.

I write for a living, so forgive my pedantry...
Last edited by Franky on Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Jim
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Re: Whitewater or White Water

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morsey
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Re: Whitewater or White Water

Post by morsey »

White water kayakers will not notice, they only want to look at the pretty pictures of the whitewater any way.

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Re: Whitewater or White Water

Post by Poke »

morsey wrote:White water kayakers will not notice, they only want to look at the pretty pictures of the whitewater any way.
This is UKRGB, it's the right place to ask when it comes to such pedantry.

By the way, is it "any way", or "anyway"? ;-)
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Re: Whitewater or White Water

Post by jmmoxon »

Poke wrote:
By the way, is it "any way", or "anyway"? ;-)
Not sure, but it defiantly should be favour (not favor) in the original post, unless you selling to the American market?: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/defin ... whitewater

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Re: Whitewater or White Water

Post by DaveBland »

White Water feels so 80s.

We all know the real colour is "Brown" anyway.
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morsey
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Re: Whitewater or White Water

Post by morsey »

Poke wrote:
morsey wrote:look at the pretty pictures of the whitewater any way.
By the way, is it "any way", or "anyway"? ;-)
Either way! :D
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Re: Whitewater or White Water

Post by Mark Gawler »

According to the UKRGB database:

10914 post containing the text "White Water"
8953 post contain the text "Whitewater"
628 post containing the text "White-water"

I still prefer Whitewater.
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Re: Whitewater or White Water

Post by Dave Manby »

I struggle with this too certainly not with a hyphen though. Mind you I've seen the book and it is very good.

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Re: Whitewater or White Water

Post by feedbackproblem »

We do often abbreviate it as WW which suggests it should be white water otherwise we'd just call it W.

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Re: Whitewater or White Water

Post by joereadickins »

Great to see the usual UKRGB suspects still getting fired up on semantics. Here's a second one for you then:

If it is whitewater, is it also flatwater? Or can whitewater co-exist with flat water?

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Re: Whitewater or White Water

Post by Poke »

joereadickins wrote:If it is whitewater, is it also flatwater? Or can whitewater co-exist with flat water?
Nobody cares about flat water, Joe.
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morsey
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Re: Whitewater or White Water

Post by morsey »

joereadickins wrote:If it is whitewater, is it also flatwater?
And the Lord said, The what?

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Re: Whitewater or White Water

Post by morsey »

If the book is called "Meghalaya Rivers", rather than "Meghalaya White Water" then you've averted the issue of having a typo on the front cover!

Whitewater is deffo not with a hyphen, unless you do that shoddy printing thing of stretching a word over two lines. It's disrespectful of pagination software, only acceptable if you are going full old school hippy and printing on parchment paper. In any case the foxing which will inevitably occur by stuffing damp into dry bags will soon render all punctuation optional.

I've not seen the book, highly reviewed by all accounts, though rather suspect it will be as informative and inspiring as the wonderful talk and film show of the perpetual wildwater rivers of India.

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Re: Whitewater or White Water

Post by Jim »

It's simple, if you are publising in British & World English it is "white water", if you are publishing in North American English "whitewater" is also acceptable, in either case hyphenisation seems to be permissible but not acceptable to paddlers.

I will continue to use both whitewater and white water depending on whether or not I manage not to hit the space bar in the middle of the word/phrase.

Flat water is a term only used by whitewater paddlers, to flat water specialists (wierdos!) it is just water.

Still water is something else again, and when bottled it is usually drinkable.
Sparkling water is an abomination that serves no purpose and should not exist, it is un-drinkable and you definitely can't paddle in it.

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Adrian Cooper
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Re: Whitewater or White Water

Post by Adrian Cooper »

Sea water
River water
Flood water
Glass of water

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morsey
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Re: Whitewater or White Water

Post by morsey »

Ah but Jim are you not forgetting the Wibbly Wobbly Racers? Is it not correct that the Feds use the term wildwater for the international?
Aussies use whitewater, Spanish use wild water, German's use wildwater... The international field, not unlike a boulder garden, is not straight forward.

Applying 'rules' of publishing is very much dependent on the intended demographic. If writing a bachelor of arts English literature dissertation, you follow the rules precisely. The format regulation will also be set out in order to ensure compliance. If writing a pamphlet for tourists you can, if you wish, ignore all manner of punctuation, grammar, even spelling if it engages and fulfills it's purpose. With guide books there is precedent for evolved use of compound nouns; obvs this is a bit trainspotting, literally! Bradshaw's infamous Hand Book has seen the use of that word be compounded and accepted within correct English use. The more common current use guidebook follows similar progression, along with attributive effect upon the new amalgamation. Likewise a similar acceptable arrangement with whitewater.

I'm guessing Joe is looking for some heavyweight published precedent? And, in that respect we shall bow down the prominent lexicographer Susie Dent, in her volume; Dent's Modern Tribes: The Secret Languages of Britain


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Re: Whitewater or White Water

Post by Adrian Cooper »

Susie Dent on the Today programme this morning being countered by some chap complaining about Americanisation of the English language.



Just an aside, Germans are renowned for compound nouns.

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morsey
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Re: Whitewater or White Water

Post by morsey »

'Some chap' - who wrote walked/wrote Engel's England

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Re: Whitewater or White Water

Post by Adrian Cooper »

You must mean Karl Marx?

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Re: Whitewater or White Water

Post by DaveBland »

Remembering every keystroke of a keyboard uses a micro-surge of energy, whitewater" has to be the 'greener' option with less characters typed.
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Re: Whitewater or White Water

Post by jriddell »

For the new edition of Scottish White Water we have been told to use two words. I see English Whitewater went with one word.

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Re: Whitewater or White Water

Post by Jim »

morsey wrote:Ah but Jim are you not forgetting the Wibbly Wobbly Racers?
Not at all, I am one now.
I chose to leave out wild and several other types of water in order not to digress too far (including but probably not limited to: hard, soft, heavy, gripe, mineral)

We either use the term wild water racing, or river racing.
A wild water sprint tends to be on white water, or is it whitewater?
Whereas a classic, at least in the UK, is usually a mix of water* and white-water so wild is a good compromise, or river.

* notice I chose to assume you would understand that water without any other qualifier is flat....

Sunday's sprint was on moving water, I don't recall any of it being white except when we were splashing it around. I even managed to navigate down it in C1WWR, an ancient really wide, really stable one, which was slowly sinking, but I didn't fall in.

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Re: Whitewater or White Water

Post by jmmoxon »

Well, the ICF list Wildwater Canoeing under their WHITE WATER disciplines, whilst British Canoeing has White Water Rafting & Wild Water Racing, the WCA & SCA go with White Water, whilst CANI doesn't seem to mention it on their front page...

Checking my bookshelf, most British guidebooks go with 2 words & US / NZ with one, although Scottish WW has also bounced between the two options!

The Americans have also got flatwater into the dictionary (& flat-water):
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/flatwater
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/flat-water
DaveBland wrote:White Water feels so 80s.

We all know the real colour is "Brown" anyway.
Surely that's coz you were still in the UK back then..?

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morsey
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Re: Whitewater or White Water

Post by morsey »

Adrian Cooper wrote:You must mean Karl Marx?
Always comes round to politics...

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Re: Whitewater or White Water

Post by Adrian Cooper »

I was labouring under the misapprehension that it was comedy. :-)

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