Faster, bigger, stronger, new gen boats vs older

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SimonMW
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Faster, bigger, stronger, new gen boats vs older

Post by SimonMW »

In the right corner we have the 9R, Toro, Waka Tuna 2, Gangsta, Newmad. In the left corner we have some current but slightly older boats. The Raptor, Veloc, Karma, Burn, Recon.

With the boats in the right corner on the market, is there still a market for the ones in the left? Given that boats such as the 9R have almost cult like following for their speed, sportiness, and so much rocker that they just sail up and over everything up to the height of a mountain? When you've got comments like those on the Hammer Factor podcast talking about the Gangsta for example in terms that basically says all the older designs are crap in comparison and that you simply don't have to worry about many river features in the same way any more, if you bought a Raptor for instance, are you just wasting money on an inferior boat when you should be getting a Toro?

I am puzzled though as to why most of these new generation boats are all built for pie eaters? There is no update to the Tutea for example to bring it in line with the Tuna 2. There is no smaller Gangsta. The 9R is a big boat too (I've paddled it and it felt huge to me), and Pyranha have no plans for a smaller one.

So, for people who don't eat pies and are of average height, is this a case of just having to paddle gigantic cruise liners of boats despite them feeling like a cork due to size, or is it a case of such paddlers just having to buy older designs with less performance than the newer generation of designs?

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Re: Faster, bigger, stronger, new gen boats vs older

Post by TRDRoberts »

Skinny people of all heights struggle, my mate is 6'4" and skinny but is forced to paddle this ridiculously big boats and I'm 5'9" and skinny and find myself swamped in mediums and only just fitting in smalls (currently weighing up between veloc and raptor).

I can't see anything wrong with the veloc/raptor for general use though if you can get it to fit.

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Re: Faster, bigger, stronger, new gen boats vs older

Post by StillNewish »

It's an interesting question....

I wonder how a more normal-person-sized boat that had massive rocker would actually perform? I suspect it may end up being too 'corky' due to having a very short water line.

I look at it as a positive thing; if I get really fat and heavy later on in life there will still be boats that can fit me....! Hahaha:D :D

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Re: Faster, bigger, stronger, new gen boats vs older

Post by SimonMW »

Skinny people of all heights struggle, my mate is 6'4" and skinny but is forced to paddle this ridiculously big boats and I'm 5'9" and skinny and find myself swamped in mediums and only just fitting in smalls (currently weighing up between veloc and raptor).
I can sympathise with this. I have a Veloc, but kitted up and wet, I am going up towards the upper end of it's capacity, and I have to have the foot blocks right at the end of their travel, since I have a long inseam. The Raptor on the other hand feels too big.
I suspect it may end up being too 'corky' due to having a very short water line.
It shouldn't, since the design would be proportional to the size and volume. It shouldn't be any more corky than for the existing models with the ideal weight of paddler in them.

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Re: Faster, bigger, stronger, new gen boats vs older

Post by Franky »

I've never been in one of the newer boats, but is their stability at the expense of manoevrability? Can you have a boat that holds its line well AND turns easily?

Doesn't it also depend on how much of a challenge you want it to be? In terms of its design I wouldn't call the Burn an inferior boat: it's fun and stable on grade 3, but perhaps on grade 4 requires more skill to paddle than a 9R does. Is that a bad thing?

As for why the new boats don't come in small sizes: I'd have thought that on big water there's no substitute for length. Regardless of the size of the paddler, a 9-foot boat is going to get through a stopper more easily than a 7-foot one.

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Re: Faster, bigger, stronger, new gen boats vs older

Post by SimonMW »

a 9-foot boat is going to get through a stopper more easily than a 7-foot one.
Would it? How so? How would you explain the often preferred use of a playboat or playful river runner for going down a big volume run such as the White Nile, Grand Canyon, or Zambezi?
but is their stability at the expense of manoevrability?
I wouldn't really say they are more stable than previous boats, nor that 'stability' is actually that desirable in a WW boat, depending on what you are talking about? The 9R is actually quite narrow and very edgy. These newer boats are designed to charge. A specific technique and strategy using active paddling. My post is not a complaint about the new designs. I think they are amazing. I just wish the manufacturers would acknowledge more that not everyone eats pies or is as tall as Sam and Jamie Sutton (and believe me, they are tall!)

One company has a solution. What Corran Addison is doing with Soul, designing and making kayaks to order using a brand new manufacturing process, is fantastic. Though it remains to be seen how tough the carbon/foam/carbon material is. Apparently some guys are testing some creekboats made out of it to see how much punishment it can take. But maybe this is the only way. The sacrifice of some material strength (although you get great rigidity) in favour of a one off design of boat that suits precisely both your size, and the type of water/rivers/waves you paddle. Much like the surfboard world. Unless a decent new material can be found that is as tough as the current plastic, and easily mouldable for one offs such as Corran is doing.

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Re: Faster, bigger, stronger, new gen boats vs older

Post by Jim »

I felt I was too heavy for the 9R, it was virtually un-steerable for me.

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Re: Faster, bigger, stronger, new gen boats vs older

Post by Franky »

SimonMW wrote:
a 9-foot boat is going to get through a stopper more easily than a 7-foot one.
Would it? How so? How would you explain the often preferred use of a playboat or playful river runner for going down a big volume run such as the White Nile, Grand Canyon, or Zambezi?
You say often and I ask, how often? I'm guessing occasionally, and by really expert paddlers.

A 9-foot boat can have a longer profile in the water and therefore more directional stability. And if you're boofing over a stopper, you want to haul as much of the boat over the foam pile as quickly as possible... Or maybe it's just that long thing boats are naturally faster. I don't know... But there must be some reason why creek boats are all longer than river runners, and I doubt if it's simply that creek boaters eat more pies. Maybe kayak manufacturers want to make kayaks easier to handle in order to expand their market, and figure that people struggling with higher grades will have bigger waistlines? :)
I wouldn't really say they are more stable than previous boats, nor that 'stability' is actually that desirable in a WW boat, depending on what you are talking about? The 9R is actually quite narrow and very edgy.
I was talking about directional stability rather than vertical. Sorry, should have been more specific.

Incidentally I thought I'd deleted that last post, as I changed my mind about getting dragged into the debate, but well, here I am.

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Re: Faster, bigger, stronger, new gen boats vs older

Post by SimonMW »

A 9-foot boat can have a longer profile in the water and therefore more directional stability. And if you're boofing over a stopper, you want to haul as much of the boat over the foam pile as quickly as possible... Or maybe it's just that long thing boats are naturally faster. I don't know... But there must be some reason why creek boats are all longer than river runners, and I doubt if it's simply that creek boaters eat more pies. Maybe kayak manufacturers want to make kayaks easier to handle in order to expand their market, and figure that people struggling with higher grades will have bigger waistlines? :)
I'm not sure why you are obsessing over length? It isn't the length that is the problem, but the volume and overall size of the boats. Ie they are huge boats with a lot of volume, and not many smaller versions of them like most boats of the past had. If you are a light or smaller paddler this in itself makes them awkward. Length has nothing to do with it. River runners can very often be over 9ft, and I'm very happy to paddle long boats thank you, from RPM's to slalom boats. All longer than 9ft! Most creek boat designs used to have small, medium, and large versions. Now they don't. It's mostly medium and large. And the medium are pretty massive in themselves these days as other people have noted.
You say often and I ask, how often? I'm guessing occasionally, and by really expert paddlers.
Often. Most of those runs are not run by beginners. In other words you won't find beginners on those runs even in creek boats chap. But this is all a distraction. You have utterly missed the point of what I was saying about the new wave of designs not being available in as wide a variety of sizes as before, and have instead focussed on entirely unrelated things.

A case in point. The Tuna was the turning point for all this design, and kick started things after it started wiping the floor in competition. There was a small version of the Tuna. Eventually, called the Tutea. Now we have the vastly improved Tuna 2, but no Tutea 2. Instead we have the Gangsta, which is an even larger boat. With Zet the Raptor and the Veloc are a medium and small version of the same design. They brought out the Director for the pie eaters. Then they released the Toro. Kind of a medium sized boat again, a bit larger than the Raptor, but using the newer rocker style profile. But no sign of any other sizes to update the whole range. The Raptor and the Veloc were never the easiest boats to boof, and these days their rocker profile is quite low compared to all the new boats. So they don't ride over features quite as well, and they require very good boof timing and technique to get the best out of them. This is great for improving technique, but these are boats that don't forgive if you are having an off day.

As a 5'8" guy, 63kg weight, if I wanted to replace my Veloc with a boat that is just as sporty, but has the new wave design basis and performance, my options are pretty limited very much to the Granate, and the small Nomad (Newmad). Or place an inordinate amount of padding into the larger boats and look like an idiot at my size paddling a gigantic barge.

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Re: Faster, bigger, stronger, new gen boats vs older

Post by Dan Yates. »

Boats are bigger now because that's what they need to be. Anyone who had run class 5 multidays in the older generations of boats will be fully aware you had to effectively knock a grade of what you would normally attempt to compensate for the loaded boat. I think Mark R had a quote along the lines of "paddling a loaded kayak is like paddling a normal kayak except it doesn't work anymore" this led to portaging stuff you would normally paddle. Not such a problem anymore, recent descent of the full Royal Gorge and people running Site Zed etc show the results of this. Boats didn't use to be this big because no one had been able to work out how to make them big and still be able to turn.

If you are not running class 5 regularly or planning to multiday on hard whitewater you probably don't need one of the new designs. You would have far more fun, and improve your boating, paddling something more fun like an rpm/rpm max, axiom , braap/mullet , z-one or if you want a bigger boat a Remix. However manufacturers need to sell load of new boats to justify start up costs so may not market them in this way, also everyone wants to paddle the boat that EG or Bren does on the North Fork even when they are beatering down Lee Valley.

In terms of new designs, to be controversial, I don't think the Newmad and Machno have true new school performance, they are bringing the progressive rocker of the Tuna, Granite etc to an easier softer design, making easy 5 and hard 4 easier but perhaps not having what it takes for the really nails stuff. I don't think the Tuna 2 is a massive improvement in performance on the Tuna 1, I would guess the update was as much about moulding strength etc as it was about performance hence why the Tutea hasn't been updated, it's performance is still right up there. They made the Gansta because that size was missing from their range and the 9r and Granite was beating the Tuna in races. I like the Waka model of having 3 different designs for 3 different size paddlers, big guys don't paddle the same way as small girls so resizing the same design doesn't always work. I paddle a large Mamba and weigh 90-100kg depending on the season, I would class it as nearly new school in performance , not quite enough rocker. Loads of people don't rate the Mamba but they tend to be smaller people paddling one of the smaller sizes which just for some reason just don't seem to work as well.

Dan

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Re: Faster, bigger, stronger, new gen boats vs older

Post by SimonMW »

Thanks Dan, some sanity to the discussion! Useful thoughts.

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Re: Faster, bigger, stronger, new gen boats vs older

Post by morsey »

Dan Yates. wrote:In terms of new designs, to be controversial...
Newmad is as Dan describes a boat which makes the 4 & 5's easier. It does that well, better than the old nomad in two key areas: Tracking & bow rocker. Means the boat will hold it's direction through a section and allow a neat boof when required. This makes it a good boat for a lot of paddlers. For me I don't want to spend my time holding bow draws or stern rudders to hold position whilst accelerating down a ramp when I have a crux move to make, I want to be able to transition from paddling to the crux stroke without directional correction. I look at three boats: Shiva, Nomad & Raptor, all good boats, but all which required a preciseness of paddling in difficult sections to hold course and change course as required. Really good paddlers dealt with that, where as average paddlers got caught out. Shiva to 9R transition, instantly the boat tracks better 'un-aided', I will throw this wide and high on laterals and use those to accelerate to the lip and take off. Speed and control opens up lines and moves. But not all paddlers can deal with the speed, back strokes don't aid the style of the boat, the medium 9R is not a large boat, slow it up in whitewater and the tail reminds you there is not masses of volume and edges just behind the cockpit, which allow you to put the boat vertical on edge to flare, make it unstable when slow in broken water and when the current pushes from behind. So the Machno enters the arena and calms things down a little, more rear volume, less length, wider girth. Machno and Newmad are boats that will be around for a long time because they give stable platforms to hit the fours and fives and stand a good chance of making the lines upright.

I like what Dan says about the different boat sizes, it's not just the extremes of sizes of people or gender who paddle differently, it's everyone who paddles differently. Cadence is personal, volume choice is personal, paddle length/angle, etc... Meaning, as much as people like to ask the question "Which is the best boat?", there is no one boat that will suit all. The old Mamba sm,md,lg were three completely different boats, that was good. I saw a slalom paddler in a large old Mamba on class five making it look like the best boat ever, and I thought; I need to change how I paddle, and I need a better boat (Returned from that trip, sold my boat, set about changing my paddling). 9R & 9RL are quite different boats, if you were going to make a third 9R you'd probably size it in between those two, rather than going smaller than the 9R. Having 5 boats (Three Machno's & two 9R's) and the Burn, gives a good range of types as well as sizes. Dagger have similar with six choices. Toro should come in different sizes, for UK a smaller version.


Small Nomad, Mamba Small Machno, Tutea & 9R that's a fair choice of small boats. Seat riser, Seat riser, Seat riser. Boats are designed for a range of paddler sizes, the seats come in the stock 'down' position, ramp them up if you are not tall. I'm talking raising the seat 20, 30, 40 or 50mm's. Try it somewhere calm, see how it improves the way the boat feels, the way your reach is better, less issue with the deck feeling too large. Experiment with different heights. (Adjust the back band, so it can move higher, and set hip pads higher, put padding for knees as you might be close enough for knees to touch the boat as well in the higher position).

Main problem, as I see it, with overloading boats, with kit or paddler size, is putting the bow deep in the water loses the subtle ability to alter course with gentle edging, meaning you have to power the thing to turn, or to stop the turn. That's the opposite of what I want to do. For river playing and running then yup get a tail end sink boat, who doesn't love sinking the stern into an eddy and spiraling down the seam? So you might need two boats. I gave my river play boat away and sold my playboat. Turns out 9R's love to play in holes and grind n spin all day long, and ride drops soo sweet, like candy.

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Re: Faster, bigger, stronger, new gen boats vs older

Post by morsey »

Franky wrote:I've never been in one of the newer boats, but is their stability at the expense of manoevrability? Can you have a boat that holds its line well AND turns easily?
Yes.

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Re: Faster, bigger, stronger, new gen boats vs older

Post by LucyLou19 »

Remember the objective on playboats on rivers like the Nile and Zambezi is different, you're aiming to plug through or under holes/ waves rather than boof/ lift your nose over them. Think more 3D paddling.

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Re: Faster, bigger, stronger, new gen boats vs older

Post by DaveBland »

Does anyone need anything more than a Nano on most British rivers?*

*Actually being serious
dave

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Re: Faster, bigger, stronger, new gen boats vs older

Post by SimonMW »

Does anyone need anything more than a Nano on most British rivers?*
Yes, because the Nano is a horrible boat!
Remember the objective on playboats on rivers like the Nile and Zambezi is different, you're aiming to plug through or under holes/ waves rather than boof/ lift your nose over them. Think more 3D paddling.
Well yes, but Franky was suggesting that there was no substitute for length on big volume, so I was pointing out those examples to show that this isn't the case.

I am thinking that with the size of the white water market, that the only way to get a boat for what you need is to have a system like Corran's, where, like the surf industry, the boat is designed for you and your needs. The sticking point as I mentioned is the material strength. But his composite sandwich of materials should be a lot stronger than the usual simple carbon/glass layup. But I wonder if there is any way to transpose the type of production line he has going for these custom designs to more durable materials? I would bet decent money that many people would have said what Corran is now doing would have been impossible even just over a year ago. And yet there he is, delivering boats.

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Re: Faster, bigger, stronger, new gen boats vs older

Post by Jim »

LucyLou19 wrote:Remember the objective on playboats on rivers like the Nile and Zambezi is different, you're aiming to plug through or under holes/ waves rather than boof/ lift your nose over them. Think more 3D paddling.
And if you do get stuck in the hole, it is much easier to ender or cartwheel a low volume boat to get it spat out. I remember a friend dropping a wavehopper into a relatively small hole for a play and spending a lot longer than he ever anticipated trying to find a way to break either end free and dig himself out - obviously at full pelt downstream it would have glanced over the top, but rapids don't always give you the option of running full pelt directly dwnstream, and once sideways in a hole, a big volume boat is not your friend.

The bottom line for me is that I am no longer interested in the kind of paddling that requires a modern creek boat, I still do some and put up with the burn for it because I'm getting too decripit too cram myself into a playboat and batter my ankles the way I used to. Grade 5 for me is still, and probably always will be, the maximum grade for a single rapid on the run, which must be portagable, as long as I meet it on those terms (rather than continuous multi day grade 5), I will probably continue to tackle it in playboats. It is amazing how much fun you can have on grade 2 and 3 in a fast lightweight composite boat with a race course superimposed on the rapid - I still love to run big volume grade 4 in plastic boats, but I think given a choice between grade 5 in a creeker, or grade 3 in a race boat, I would rather go racing....

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Re: Faster, bigger, stronger, new gen boats vs older

Post by Jim »

SimonMW wrote:I would bet decent money that many people would have said what Corran is now doing would have been impossible even just over a year ago. And yet there he is, delivering boats.
Technically it has been possible for a while, still remains to be seen if the market is really there yet - it is not the boats that are the issue, it is paddlers with their heads up their backsides refusing to accept that it is possible.

On Friday I miscalculated and instead of turning my 16 foot fibreglass canoe away from a rock I ended up powering it even harder onto it getting up onto the rock almost as far as the yoke and needing to perform a rock spin to get most of the boat downstream to drag me off the rock again. The boat in question is polyester and chopped glass (E-glass I think, not S-glass) with wood trim and weighs about 30kg, plus my own 105kg, plus camping kit for 3 days. I left some gel coat on the rock, I didn't spring a leak, and although I could easily identify the scratch that evening, after 2 more days of bumping and scraping over shingle rapids it was lost amongst the minor scuffs over the whole bottom of the boat - which didn't look any worse than the bottom of any of the Royalex or Triple PE boats on the trip. That is the cheapest and weakest of all composite constructions, hitting a rock with over 150kg of weight behind it fast enough to get almost 8 feet of boat onto the rock, and it sustained only superficial damage - most PE kayaks would have had a deeper gouge to show, but everyone knows fibreglass boats are like eggshells and will crack and sink if they so much as look at a rock.

I also have a Vajda iScream in Sport construction (vac baggged carbon/kevlar foam sandwich construction), it is not the lightest but one of the stronger layups they do. I cannot explain how stiff and tough that boat is. Yes I have holed it on pointy rocks at Symonds Yat, on the second attempt (first attempt just left gouges which popped back to shape with careful application of a heat gun), but I have hit a lot of other rocks and rapidblocks in it and taken countless swims out of it all of which have not left a mark (well occasionally a dent in the core which will pop out with gentle heating). I hit a rock in a race the other day which shook me loose in the straps, but there is no mark on the boat.

20 years ago race boats were built like eggshells, and broke frequently, now they are the same weight* but very much tougher because the market wanted better longeveity and the manufacturers adopted already proven techniques from other products and supplied stronger boats, they couldn't go much lighter anyway due to the rules. If you are going to deliberately use rocks to help you attain your line (like the modern fad for running the bow onto a rock to hold it up so you can clear a hole) you probably don't want to be looking at composite boats, if you are the kind of paddler who mainly runs the river and just sometimes accidentally hits rocks, you might be surprised how well a tough spec composite boat would work for you.

If manufacturers were to produce creek boats in tough composite construction, are there other rock dodgers amongst us that would be interested? Surely not everyone actually wants to use their creek boat to grind down roaks, some people must still try to paddle around when possible?

*ICF have just increased the minimum weight of slalom boats to allow split boats to be competitive in international competitions, the increase being the approximate weight of the flange and bolts, other disciplines still use ages old minimum boat weights and still have much tougher boats. Presumably if it works for slalom other disciplines will look to allow split boats too since everyone but freestyle must face the same over-length issue when flying to international events...

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Re: Faster, bigger, stronger, new gen boats vs older

Post by clarky999 »

SimonMW wrote:
Remember the objective on playboats on rivers like the Nile and Zambezi is different, you're aiming to plug through or under holes/ waves rather than boof/ lift your nose over them. Think more 3D paddling.
Well yes, but Franky was suggesting that there was no substitute for length on big volume, so I was pointing out those examples to show that this isn't the case.
It IS the case though, hence why they used creek boats on the Inga Rapids. The advantages of longer boats *for down river* on the likes of the Zam are pretty clear too if you watch Ben Marr's videos in the Braap. The only reason people use play boats on these rivers is because you generally go to the Nile or Zam to surf.

I think you're over thinking the issue a bit, and possibly also just thinking too much of the days when the Nomad 8.5 was a big boat for big people (it wasn't: if you were over ~85kg it sat too low in the water and didn't work properly). For example, Aniol is tiny and can't be any more than 60kg, yet has no problem throwing the Tuna about.

Maybe you just need to spend some more time using modern boats on moving water, not just sitting in them of testing in flat water? They're supposed to feel floaty. If you just don't like that feel maybe it's not a creek boat you need?

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Re: Faster, bigger, stronger, new gen boats vs older

Post by SimonMW »

Aniol is not an average boater. Neither is Benny. I don't think the reason they used creek boats on the Inga rapids was anything to do with boat length (just why are people obsessing with length?) and was more to do with volume! The inga rapids were unlike any others ever paddled. If it was boat length they were after, why not use a Whip-it?!

But like Franky you have utterly missed the point. I really wish people would read what is said first. Whether people use lower volume boats on the Zambezi and Nile for playing or for going down river (which they do, as well as rivers like the Grand Canyon) makes absolutely no odds whatsoever. The fact is that they are using those boats on those high volume rivers without issue, and are having fun with them. Which is contrary to Franky's suggestion that using such boats on such rivers was not desirable. Then you've got the likes of Daz Clarkson doing multi day's in a Loki in places like Nepal.

Either way, the point Franky made was such boats were not as good or usable in big volume. But those rivers prove that they are. Being used for down river play or not.

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Re: Faster, bigger, stronger, new gen boats vs older

Post by clarky999 »

Actually the point (s)he made (which you missed, and repeatedly brought back up) is simply that longer boats carry more speed and punch through stoppers better, and so are better for *paddling down* big volume rapids. Clearly length isn't the only factor and volume is also important...

I haven't been on UKRGB often in the past ~four years, but you were saying the same sort of stuff back then, i.e:
I am puzzled though as to why most of these new generation boats are all built for pie eaters? ... So, for people who don't eat pies and are of average height, is this a case of just having to paddle gigantic cruise liners of boats despite them feeling like a cork due to size, or is it a case of such paddlers just having to buy older designs with less performance than the newer generation of designs?
If I recall correctly, back then you tried a Raptor, decided it was too big and bought a Veloc? I remember at the time thinking that was odd, as I'm 5 foot 9 and just under 70kg and thought the Rapter sizing was perfect for me and they'd probably need to make a bigger one for anyone much heavier.

The recommended weight range for the Tuna is 65-95kg. That's hardly huge - pretty much average size really. I haven't yet come across a pro kayaker or boat design who is a 'pie eater,' and actually most tend to be pretty slim and fit, so your assertion just seems a bit weird. Not sure why you're getting so irate, but I'd suggest you either need to adjust your paddling, your understanding of boat sizing and performance, or just look at different types of boat like river runners rather than big floaty creekers. Simply not liking the feel is perfectly valid, I just don't understand your gripes re. sizes - I reckon it's actually the bigger people who aren't served so well by the market atm!
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Re: Faster, bigger, stronger, new gen boats vs older

Post by DaveBland »

SimonMW wrote:Yes, because the Nano is a horrible boat!
Either way, the point Franky made was such boats were not as good or usable in big volume. But those rivers prove that they are. Being used for down river play or not.
I think both of the above comments depend on the skill of the paddler. Nanos can be a handful if not paddled aggressively, but on low volume rivers offer way more fun for the grade without the inherent pinning dangers of the slicier boats.

And on big volume rivers, 'better' paddlers will get more out of a smaller boat fun-wise, but if just getting down it safely is the issue or a paddler has a lower skill level, a bigger boat will be easier.
dave

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Re: Faster, bigger, stronger, new gen boats vs older

Post by Mark Dixon »

DaveBland wrote:Does anyone need anything more than a Nano on most British rivers?*

*Actually being serious
Maybe not a Nano but I've often thought in comparison to foreign rivers we dont need some of the huge creek boats on offer for most of our paddling, I have 9R for higher water but havent needed to use it in over a year, went to Treweryn week before last, done 1 run in my Nomad, 1 in a Braap and 6/7 in a Riot Booster as it was more fun. My lad has just sold his Tuna as he feels he has no need for it in UK, he'll paddle an RPM from now on.
People feel comfy and secure in larger boats so there is a big market in UK for them but skillfull paddlers have no real need unless a river is in absolubte spate.

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Re: Faster, bigger, stronger, new gen boats vs older

Post by Mike A »

Mark Dixon wrote:
DaveBland wrote:Does anyone need anything more than a Nano on most British rivers?*

*Actually being serious
Maybe not a Nano but I've often thought in comparison to foreign rivers we dont need some of the huge creek boats on offer for most of our paddling, I have 9R for higher water but havent needed to use it in over a year, went to Treweryn week before last, done 1 run in my Nomad, 1 in a Braap and 6/7 in a Riot Booster as it was more fun. My lad has just sold his Tuna as he feels he has no need for it in UK, he'll paddle an RPM from now on.
People feel comfy and secure in larger boats so there is a big market in UK for them but skillfull paddlers have no real need unless a river is in absolubte spate.
Totally agree, but its an argument that a lot of people struggle with because they see that you can easily progress to getting through rapids without problem / paddler x is paddling this biiger boat / most people are now paddling bigger boats so they must be best.

Unfortunately they miss out on the extra fun that lower volume boats give on most common UK rivers / water levels, and the better development of boat control that is crucial.

Big boats have their place, and can certainly aid development, but their is a lot to be said for boats like the Inazone and I3 - I just wish they had had more foot room.

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Re: Faster, bigger, stronger, new gen boats vs older

Post by morsey »

People said the Shiva was too big!
Image

9R is boring
Image

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Re: Faster, bigger, stronger, new gen boats vs older

Post by davebrads »

I don't get your point. The Shiva is too big and the 9R is boring if you are paddling a river that is well within your ability, which to be honest most of us do most of the time. They aren't if you are using them in the right environment.

Actually this applies to any of the boats mentioned in this discussion. In the right environment they are all good, in the wrong they aren't. The trouble is we haven't all got the money and space to have the "right" boat for every river, so we make a compromise depending upon our ability, the rivers we want to paddle and what our expectations are. By default if we have to choose a single boat most will choose a bigger boat because nobody wants to walk away from a river because our boat is too small. This especially applies if you are going away for a multi day paddling trip. Most of the time there is not an option to take more than one boat so we will take the boat that will get us down everything that we might potentially be doing, and as a result perhaps regret our choice on the majority of the rivers that we end up paddling.
it's not a playboat, it's a river runner

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Re: Faster, bigger, stronger, new gen boats vs older

Post by morsey »

9R No fun on class threeImage

Touring rivers in it would be lame


Dull on flat water


Definitely can't be any good for flatwater training sessions
Image

Is the boat the limiting factor?

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Re: Faster, bigger, stronger, new gen boats vs older

Post by DaveBland »

morsey wrote:9R No fun on class threeImage
You are wrong. 9Rs are crap fun on grade three.

Admittedly you are pulling some stylish old skool shizz right there, but it clearly says "K6" on your boat - obviously a smaller, shorter more fun boat.
dave

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Re: Faster, bigger, stronger, new gen boats vs older

Post by The_Fod »

DaveBland wrote:
it clearly says "K6" on your boat - obviously a smaller, shorter more fun boat.
Now you've got me thinking what a 9r with the front cut down and welded to look like a play boat would be like to paddle...

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Re: Faster, bigger, stronger, new gen boats vs older

Post by DaveBland »

...and we all know which boats are the most fun...

Image
dave

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