British Canoeing AGM

Inland paddling
cp
Posts: 257
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 5:11 pm

Re: British Canoeing AGM

Post by cp » Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:39 pm

And do you believe them? David Joy add already broken promises made at the consultations

GregS
Posts: 80
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:56 pm
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 8 times

Re: British Canoeing AGM

Post by GregS » Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:31 pm

This controversy has sparked a lot of interest - with strong words being spoken on many fronts.

See here for a summary of where we are at: https://spark.adobe.com/page/wrvYmZWwzceja/

Or just click on this image - which opens the presentation...

Image

If you're a member of British Canoeing... you can have your say directly by voting (by Proxy if need be). If you're not a member - please carry on posting your views here where they're freely available!

User avatar
DaveBland
Posts: 3657
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:01 pm
Location: Calgary Canada
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 12 times

Re: British Canoeing AGM

Post by DaveBland » Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:12 pm

Hi there. The above presentation is nice 'n, all but contains too much detail. As Ivan Lawyer put it in his post, there is only ONE issue that matters and it's really simple.
To paraphrase:

There is only one person who gets to sit in on Board meetings and other high level meetings who is not one of the inside gang. This person is the President, he has no voting rights but can air his and his publics views...

At the moment if you don't like the job [the President does] you have the ability to nominate a person of your choice and he can be voted in at the next election (every 2 years). Any one from any area can stand and represent whatever they choose...

We are ALL about to lose the right to vote for the one position at Board Meetings that can speak directly for us.

IF you don't vote against Albert Woods being given a newly formed Life President role then you will AUTOMATICALLY be losing your right to vote for your own choice of President , the only person you have influence over! This role would, if the Life President role is created, become "appointed" by the Board who would of course install their own man.


I have no stake whatsoever and none of this affects me in the slightest, but boy, does it piss me off that the governing body of the sport I love is behaving in such an underhand/undemocratic way and with no regard for the grass roots of the sport.
dave

dougdew99
Posts: 115
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2007 9:05 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: British Canoeing AGM

Post by dougdew99 » Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:45 pm

I went to a BCU AGM once. It was such a novelty that someone who is not a member of the clique attended, I was asked who
I was and what I was doing there.

I asked how much of their income from recreational members was spent on access. They didn't know and said they would get back to me. They never did.

If a hundred access activists attended the AGM it would cause a sensation. Especially if the press was involved. Meanwhile, the fat cats enjoy themselves in their cozy little club, with no regard for recreational members.

User avatar
John K
Posts: 558
Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:23 am
Location: Brighton
Been thanked: 8 times

Re: British Canoeing AGM

Post by John K » Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:42 pm

Well, for what it's worth I've emailed my proxy forms and ballot paper and Ivan Lawler has my vote.

I honestly don't know if it's of any real importance, because I'm not convinced that British Canoeing will ever be of any real relevance to me, but I live in hope and it's only the work of a minute or two so has to be worth a try.

Forms are here: https://www.britishcanoeing.org.uk/news ... eting-agm/ and you've still got a couple of days to email them in.

Daker
Posts: 517
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 5:01 pm
Location: Scotland
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 8 times

Re: British Canoeing AGM

Post by Daker » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:14 pm

Reminder that the proxy forms need to be in by 22nd folks.


"All members are requested to return the Ballot Form.

Those not intending to attend the meetings are requested to complete the Proxy Form for EGM and AGM.

Forms can be returned by post or by email to urvasi.naidoo@britishcanoeing.org.uk and just be received by 5pm 22nd March 2017."
.
.

User avatar
John K
Posts: 558
Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:23 am
Location: Brighton
Been thanked: 8 times

Re: British Canoeing AGM

Post by John K » Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:32 pm

Latest news from upstairs looks encouraging:

https://www.britishcanoeing.org.uk/news ... h-canoeing

User avatar
Adrian Cooper
Posts: 9711
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 2:26 pm
Location: Buckinghamshire
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 12 times

Re: British Canoeing AGM

Post by Adrian Cooper » Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:41 pm

Procedurally wrong! You can't change the EGM papers three days before the vote based on social media feedback, what if a load of people were intending to turn up to the event to vote in person in favour of the original agenda.

Daker
Posts: 517
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 5:01 pm
Location: Scotland
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 8 times

Re: British Canoeing AGM

Post by Daker » Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:23 pm

This just gets more and more wrong !
What 'Open Letter' - has anyone actually received said letter or were they just hoping to sneak this in ?

User avatar
Adrian Cooper
Posts: 9711
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 2:26 pm
Location: Buckinghamshire
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 12 times

Re: British Canoeing AGM

Post by Adrian Cooper » Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:28 pm

Second open letter received a web link at 3.38pm today:

https://www.britishcanoeing.org.uk/news ... dium=email

Mike A
Posts: 348
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 10:22 pm
Location: In me boat
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: British Canoeing AGM

Post by Mike A » Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:40 pm

I do wonder what this paragraph actually means

"It is also clear that our strategic plan sets out an appropriate direction of travel and members are looking to see the benefits that will flow from it. A number want to see more member benefits and more ways to become a member. Many would like to see more recognition and profile for the sport."

I can understand that people want the profile of the sport raised.

The bit I am unsure about though is the repeated statemens of "benefits".

In the first usage it would appear that members are keen to see how the governing bodies actions that might be taken in the future, might benefit the sport - but no clear message as to what these benefits may be.

The second usage would appear to be finacial / linked benefits, but again its not clear what these benefits are. If it is discounts at shops / gyms / health foods etc, that is all well and good, but other than the few quid off at cotswolds, who uses any of the current benefits? It's a nice to have but i wonder if these benefits are more about creting cashflow for the governing body than anything else. Does anyone really join BC for discounts? I imagine most join becuase they have to (competition / coaching) or to get the insurance / canal license.

That aside, this all does appear eroneous waffle. Surely what members truly want is for the governing body to represent us in a reasonable manner (ie ask its member what they want and then try to deliver), and they are the focal point to deliver access / the right to take part in our sport WITHOUT any fear of abuse from other members of the public.

User avatar
Adrian Cooper
Posts: 9711
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 2:26 pm
Location: Buckinghamshire
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 12 times

Re: British Canoeing AGM

Post by Adrian Cooper » Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:21 am

Maybe one of the problems with badly worded consultations:

Q - Do you want more benefits? Yes or No - what is everyone going to answer?

Q - What else would you like from your NGB - are more benefits going to be at the top of your list?

User avatar
davebrads
Posts: 1809
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2002 11:42 pm
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: British Canoeing AGM

Post by davebrads » Thu Mar 23, 2017 5:47 pm

Maybe I'm a bit perverse but I vote no to more benefits as I would rather they focus on things that matter. Nothing comes without a cost implication and I would rather not pay for something I don't want or need.
it's not a playboat, it's a river runner

Dave Manby
Posts: 2012
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 10:36 am
Location: Llangollen
Been thanked: 10 times
Contact:

Re: British Canoeing AGM

Post by Dave Manby » Sat Mar 25, 2017 9:05 pm

I went got there to discover the reason I had gone had been withdrawn from the EGM - wasted journey but I stayed to hear the handling of the issues described as "cack handed" and not by a gobby youth!

TheEcho
Posts: 103
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 5:11 pm
Location: Essex
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: British Canoeing AGM

Post by TheEcho » Sun Mar 26, 2017 5:25 pm

More benefits could also mean the licence being expanded to more rivers, but I am not holding my breath, handy as it would be as a paddler to be able to hold my breath indefinitely...

Anyway I see Ivan has been elected. Hopefully this will be the start of a much needed shake up.

User avatar
Adrian Cooper
Posts: 9711
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 2:26 pm
Location: Buckinghamshire
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 12 times

Re: British Canoeing AGM

Post by Adrian Cooper » Sun Mar 26, 2017 8:19 pm

Without doing any research, I am supposing that the current BC licence covers pretty much all of the rivers where a licence is required. I understand there are just a few canals which are not included.

TheEcho
Posts: 103
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 5:11 pm
Location: Essex
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: British Canoeing AGM

Post by TheEcho » Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:49 pm

The Rivers Chelmer and Blackwater are the obvious exceptions to the licence scheme near me in Essex. But more important still, I want to resolve the access issues for all the places where we are told we can't paddle at all.

Chris Bolton
Posts: 2886
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:33 pm
Location: NW England
Has thanked: 23 times
Been thanked: 80 times

Re: British Canoeing AGM

Post by Chris Bolton » Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:56 pm

The Rivers Chelmer and Blackwater are the obvious exceptions to the licence scheme near me in Essex
I assume you mean the Chelmer and Blackwater Navigation not the uncanalised parts of the rivers?

User avatar
Adrian Cooper
Posts: 9711
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 2:26 pm
Location: Buckinghamshire
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 12 times

Re: British Canoeing AGM

Post by Adrian Cooper » Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:37 pm

TheEcho wrote:But more important still, I want to resolve the access issues for all the places where we are told we can't paddle at all.
If you do some research and maybe check out River Access for All website, you should come to your own consensus on the matter. The hope that BC will be able to persuade the government to provide confirmation by statute is futile.

TheEcho
Posts: 103
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 5:11 pm
Location: Essex
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: British Canoeing AGM

Post by TheEcho » Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:32 am

So do you think the "Waters of Wales" independent campaign is futile too?

User avatar
Adrian Cooper
Posts: 9711
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 2:26 pm
Location: Buckinghamshire
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 12 times

Re: British Canoeing AGM

Post by Adrian Cooper » Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:49 am

Wales is different to England in that the WA appear to be actively consulting on the subject so, in order to make themselves heard, WoW are making the right noises. All power to them.

BC are suggesting some kind of target of 50% of rivers with access. I don't know what they mean by this, there is little detail, but if they start with all of the rivers in Scotland plus the major rivers in England they will have a good start with little effort.

BC Waterways Env
Posts: 71
Joined: Fri May 15, 2015 11:37 am

Re: British Canoeing AGM

Post by BC Waterways Env » Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:50 am

Adrian Cooper wrote:
BC are suggesting some kind of target of 50% of rivers with access. I don't know what they mean by this, there is little detail, but if they start with all of the rivers in Scotland plus the major rivers in England they will have a good start with little effort.
Where did this come from? I don't recognise the stat/target, and its certainly not the way it would/should be phrased.

User avatar
Adrian Cooper
Posts: 9711
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 2:26 pm
Location: Buckinghamshire
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 12 times

Re: British Canoeing AGM

Post by Adrian Cooper » Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:39 pm

From 'Stronger Together' :

Improve access and promote environmental awareness:
•Develop and promote new digital resources which promote the public rights to rivers in England with 50% of rivers included by 2021


I don't really know what this means but it might sound rather aspirational to 'Joe Paddler'

Also, I see this refers to rivers in England rather than Scotland so quite a hurdle.

BC Waterways Env
Posts: 71
Joined: Fri May 15, 2015 11:37 am

Re: British Canoeing AGM

Post by BC Waterways Env » Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:24 pm

Adrian Cooper wrote:From 'Stronger Together' :

Improve access and promote environmental awareness:
•Develop and promote new digital resources which promote the public rights to rivers in England with 50% of rivers included by 2021


I don't really know what this means but it might sound rather aspirational to 'Joe Paddler'

Also, I see this refers to rivers in England rather than Scotland so quite a hurdle.
Ah, OK. The aim is to create a new database/website or similar to help us continue to work of many paddlers in researching and documenting public rights of navigation. Both at the national/general level and at the local level. Also anything that helps build the case for these rights - relevant case law, international experience, environmental evidence etc. A huge amount of this already exists - both here at BC and out among clubs and paddlers. We want this to be made public facing, and to collate in one location, so to make it as comprehensive as possible. I'm also sure there is a huge amount that we don't know - and this isintended to be a tool to help us put some focus on what we don't know too, helping fill in the gaps etc.

The information gathered will be used for a variety of purposes - not least trying to gain wider recognition of rights on rivers.

I'm investigating ways of making this something paddlers can contribute directly to, almost akin to a wiki site.

I'd hope all rivers can be added as quickly as possible - but the aim is to have 50% of English rivers on there and filled in to a large extent (it'll always be a work in progress) within the 4 year plan.

Mike A
Posts: 348
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 10:22 pm
Location: In me boat
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: British Canoeing AGM

Post by Mike A » Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:54 pm

Database could be useful, but within the strategy document is there any strategy / roadmap for actually delivering increassed access?

Ie, it will be good to have this info (I'm not yet really certain why*), but what is the plan for using that info? What is the plan for campaigning with government / judges, how do you envisage members being involved, what media campaign is there to get public backing, what do sport england have to say re fishing community intimidating paddlers, etc etc



* reason for not being certain why useful is that if Caffyn's research is accepted, there is no need for data pertaining to individual rivers.

User avatar
DaveBland
Posts: 3657
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:01 pm
Location: Calgary Canada
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 12 times

Re: British Canoeing AGM

Post by DaveBland » Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:16 pm

As long as such a database isn't confused [seen as] being an acceptance that other rivers are in question.

I agree, a database of rivers that can be paddled 'hassle free' as there is a universally accepted right of navigation on them – would be useful for those concerned about an uninterrupted day out.

Maybe it would be better to collate a database of all rivers where there have been disputes and record that. The optics this would be way more consistent with a universal right of access.

And doesn't that database already exist?
dave

User avatar
Adrian Cooper
Posts: 9711
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 2:26 pm
Location: Buckinghamshire
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 12 times

Re: British Canoeing AGM

Post by Adrian Cooper » Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:50 pm

I think it does Dave. A countrywide map was drawn up and coloured in red amber and green depending on the perception of accessibility. I'm struggling to remember who did this whether it was Keith Day from canoedaysout or the chap from Paddle Points.

Mike A
Posts: 348
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 10:22 pm
Location: In me boat
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: British Canoeing AGM

Post by Mike A » Tue Mar 28, 2017 8:39 pm

The info re a new report into historical access (inc navigation) being mentioned on SOTP looks intesting, more so as it was requested by the Broads Authority.

http://www.songofthepaddle.co.uk/forum/ ... lsewhere-)

Ian Dallaway
Posts: 324
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:07 am
Location: Cannock
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: British Canoeing AGM

Post by Ian Dallaway » Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:40 am

BC Waterways Env wrote: Ah, OK. The aim is to create a new database/website or similar to help us continue to work of many paddlers in researching and documenting public rights of navigation. Both at the national/general level and at the local level. Also anything that helps build the case for these rights - relevant case law, international experience, environmental evidence etc. A huge amount of this already exists - both here at BC and out among clubs and paddlers. We want this to be made public facing, and to collate in one location, so to make it as comprehensive as possible. I'm also sure there is a huge amount that we don't know - and this isintended to be a tool to help us put some focus on what we don't know too, helping fill in the gaps etc.

The information gathered will be used for a variety of purposes - not least trying to gain wider recognition of rights on rivers.

I'm investigating ways of making this something paddlers can contribute directly to, almost akin to a wiki site.

I'd hope all rivers can be added as quickly as possible - but the aim is to have 50% of English rivers on there and filled in to a large extent (it'll always be a work in progress) within the 4 year plan.
I think it sounds like a great idea Chris. Anything we can do to have increased focus on access to our rivers can only be a good thing. If the wider paddling community can be engaged in this then I dare say that the knowledge base should be vast.

I realise this is outside of your direct remit, but if the initiative was UK wide, involving CW, CANI and SCA - then it would be even more useful to us, because as paddlers we do tend to travel around a fair bit in search of water.

Good luck.
Ian

BC Waterways Env
Posts: 71
Joined: Fri May 15, 2015 11:37 am

Re: British Canoeing AGM

Post by BC Waterways Env » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:45 am

A few quick thoughts based on the ideas above, but this will be communicated more fully in the weeks to come too.
Database could be useful, but within the strategy document is there any strategy / roadmap for actually delivering increassed access?
Yes, and this will begin to become more clear. We are looking at significantly redeveloping the ways in which we are engaging government (and all it's arms, from the Environment Agency to DEFRA, Marine Management Organisation to Natural England) as one example. The idea is that as it develops the database will help us in prioritising and building our message in these areas. It's not an end in itself, but a way of us working from a stronger knowledge level.
reason for not being certain why useful is that if Caffyn's research is accepted, there is no need for data pertaining to individual rivers.
Doug's research will be a key part of the database - as will ideas like the Staithes research. The aim is to collate and build knowledge on all these bits of work into a strong database. Lots of people, notably Keith and others at River Access For All have for example done a lot of work building on Doug's reserach - we want to get this all into one source - and to facilitate people in continuing to develop this. For example identifying where we need to get the original source, or identifying gaps or questions in the case that we can build upon. I'm looking at it more as an 'annotated bibliography', helping make the sources and evidence in the current research better catalogued and accessible to more people.

Also - any information on PRN is helpful. There are a variety of ways in which historic use / statute on individual rivers helps the arguments Doug has made. It also gives us rivers to ficus on while we continue working in the background on further strengthening the 'General PRN' case. Also - should the worst ever happen and the 'General PRN is either disproved or removed, we need to have as solid a background of information on rivers as possible.

Whenever a river comes into question bits of evidence that people have found start popping up - but that's not being cataloged and stored - so when things go quite it is dispersed again. The aim of the database is to collate it more effectively.
As long as such a database isn't confused [seen as] being an acceptance that other rivers are in question.
Indeed - recognise the concern here and we will be making sure in the set up and process behind populating it that we make this distinction clear - that it is consistent with our policy on access and the law. All ways of looking at PRN will be included and built upon. However, there are plenty of organisations out there as we know who do take the line that rivers are in question (to put it mildly). So having a good stock of evidence helps us both challenge that for specific rivers - but also show how even under a 'historic' view of the law legitimate PRNs are being ignored.
Maybe it would be better to collate a database of all rivers where there have been disputes and record that. The optics this would be way more consistent with a universal right of access.
This will also be a part of it - and to back that up a push to promote and reinforce the need for people to report in any incidents and issues faced. The River Access Map has this already - but use of it for reporting incidents is sporadic, as it is currently with our own reporting tools.

The database could include:
- Details of historic use and statute
- Particularly popular sections
- Accessibility information (puts ins etc)
- Details of disputes

The aim is however to add to and compliment not duplicate. It may make sense on some points to divert people to alternative sites - for example the actual details of put in points may be better with a link to the river on Paddle Points, to the guides on here, or to canoe trails on other sites (including our own).
if the initiative was UK wide, involving CW, CANI and SCA - then it would be even more useful to us, because as paddlers we do tend to travel around a fair bit in search of water.
Aim is: Year 1 engage with paddlers to find out what to include, how people can be involved and get the technicals sorted. Year 2: begin populating. Hopefully as it develops bringing in info from the other home nations will make sense - certainly adding in Wales is a direct match. We are working much more closely with Canoe Wales now, so they'll be involved and hopefully able to get volunteers to add in Welsh rivers (many English volunteers will know plenty about Welsh rivers!).


Chris, chris.page@britishcanoeing.org.uk

Post Reply

Return to “Whitewater and Touring”