Hypothetically.... river bed alterations!

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banzer
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Hypothetically.... river bed alterations!

Post by banzer »

OK so hypothetically.... not that I would ever do or consider such a thing...... but.....

.... if you wanted to remove a rib of rock from a creek, in the middle of nowhere, not in anyone's back garden, that would not be noticed by anyone, and not affect fish movement or cause any environmental damage whatsoever.....

.... for the purpose of making an unpaddleable drop potentially paddleable, how would you do it?

Hammer drill, sledge hammer, drive in wedge? Explosives from your mate at the quarry?!?!!!!

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Re: Hypothetically.... river bed alterations!

Post by Poke »

I feel that a picture would greatly aid this hypothetical scenario... ;-)
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Re: Hypothetically.... river bed alterations!

Post by stonercanoe »

Talk to a caver, diggers use Dr Noble! Or do what fishermen do and get a JCB up there. I have seen them altering the bed of the Wye with a JCB in the river (make a bet they did not have permission from any authority as the Wye is a SSSI).
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Re: Hypothetically.... river bed alterations!

Post by Chris Bolton »

As above, look on a caving forum for similar hypothetical questions about 'capping' (not that anyone would ever do it...).

But the question not asked is "would it be a good idea?" Ideas of what is paddleable change; suppose somebody had modified unpaddleable rapids in the 1960s? Ask a climber about the ethics of chipping a hold on an "unclimbable" wall and you'll be straight into a controversy. Cavers have a bit more justification; no amount of technique is going to get you through a 10cm gap, and there's no equivalent of portaging to continue.

There was a thread here a couple of years back about a rapid (somewhere in the SW?) that had been modified on safety grounds, and if I remember right, there was debate about whether the result was better or worse.

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Re: Hypothetically.... river bed alterations!

Post by charleston14 »

I would start by advising you get permission form the riparian landowner who's property this is.

Then you would also need to get a consent from the Environment Agency.
- for that they will need you to demonstrate that you will not be causing any detriment to ecology, morhological features, habitat degradation, and that the intended work does not increase flood risk. They will also need to see proof that the methods employed are environmentally sympathetic.

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Re: Hypothetically.... river bed alterations!

Post by jet »

Hypothetically

https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/environment/re ... blications

Scroll down and there's a publication on hand drilling and breaking rocks.

Loads of other interesting bits on there as well.
Last edited by jet on Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Hypothetically.... river bed alterations!

Post by jmmoxon »

Altering river beds doesn't always have the desired effect - just ask the artificial course designers!

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Re: Hypothetically.... river bed alterations!

Post by Jim »

stonercanoe wrote:Talk to a caver, diggers use Dr Noble! Or do what fishermen do and get a JCB up there. I have seen them altering the bed of the Wye with a JCB in the river (make a bet they did not have permission from any authority as the Wye is a SSSI).
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Interesting assumption, BC own a little land in or adjacent to a SSSI on the Wye and they do (or at least a local club does) go through all the correct paperwork to get properly equipped excavators* in to undertake riverbed modifications - I was talking to one of the people that goes to the meetings about it back in October.

Things can be done if you go through the proper channels. Why wouldn't rich fishing interests go through correct channels if poor paddlers do?

*usually need special hydraulics compared to regular machine up to minimise the risk of hydraulic oil leaks into the river.

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Re: Hypothetically.... river bed alterations!

Post by Jim »

Your method would presumably depend on how much rock you needed to remove and in what time scale.

Most rock can be sawn, which would be quite precise, if you have sufficient time and could divert the water temporarily.

I would however strongly advise against it, as already noted it is an extremely divisive subject.

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Re: Hypothetically.... river bed alterations!

Post by banzer »

Poke wrote:I feel that a picture would greatly aid this hypothetical scenario... ;-)
I don't have a decent one. This 'might be' the drop in question, on the Dundonnel. You can just about see the rib of rock, half way down on river left. At high flows this would clean up, but the entry drop develops a terminal-looking towback!

http://l7.alamy.com/zooms/9b47528f0c3c4 ... dkh3b6.jpg

Thanks for some good hypothetical tips!
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Re: Hypothetically.... river bed alterations!

Post by Jim »

Hasn't that been run already?
I remember taking a photo of Greig at the bottom of it in about 2000, but he had sealed launched in as close as he dared :)

Hypothetically speaking, this drop is roadside and although the population density is quite low and I often drive from Braemore to Aultbea without passing a single car (winter), there would be no way for a hypothetical vandal to modify it stealthily. There are some reasonable sized laybys near where that photo is taken, I bet it attracts a lot of camera wielding tourists in the summer months.

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Re: Hypothetically.... river bed alterations!

Post by morsey »

stonercanoe wrote:Talk to a caver, diggers use Dr Noble! Or do what fishermen do and get a JCB up there. I have seen them altering the bed of the Wye with a JCB in the river (make a bet they did not have permission from any authority as the Wye is a SSSI).
Engineers for the canoe site in Symonds Yat did a full survey of the river prior to any works, including putting divers in to remove all terrestrial cray fish, to reinstate after the work.

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Re: Hypothetically.... river bed alterations!

Post by banzer »

You can't see this all of this drop from any of the hypothetical laybys. You have to walk down a way. Plus I never go up there at busy times - November usually. It may well have been run, but it isn't clean. You could do it at high flow, but I would seriously recommend somehow putting in after the entry stopper.
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Re: Hypothetically.... river bed alterations!

Post by morsey »

Myron Ebell had an appointment at 10 Downing street the other day. The world is screwed, might as well get the explosives out. Ain't no need worrying about longterm when climate change deniers are pulling the shots. "It's better to burn out, than to fade away."

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Re: Hypothetically.... river bed alterations!

Post by Chris Bolton »

remove all terrestrial cray fish
I suppose the extra-terrestrial crayfish could look after themselves...

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Re: Hypothetically.... river bed alterations!

Post by morsey »

Unfortunately that is exactly the case Chris. Non native crayfish are effectively taking over the natural habitat of UK origin crayfish. http://www.nonnativespecies.org/factshe ... iesId=2498

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Re: Hypothetically.... river bed alterations!

Post by Poke »

Chris Bolton wrote:
remove all terrestrial cray fish
I suppose the extra-terrestrial crayfish could look after themselves...
morsey wrote:Unfortunately that is exactly the case Chris. Non native crayfish are effectively taking over the natural habitat of UK origin crayfish. http://www.nonnativespecies.org/factshe ... iesId=2498
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Re: Hypothetically.... river bed alterations!

Post by Chris Bolton »

Unfortunately that is exactly the case Chris. Non native crayfish are effectively taking over the natural habitat of UK origin crayfish.
Sorry, I know about Signal crayfish and the problems, but it was the word 'terrestrial' rather than native that amused me - although they do look pretty alien.

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Re: Hypothetically.... river bed alterations!

Post by Jim »

banzer wrote:You can't see this all of this drop from any of the hypothetical laybys.
The hypothetical tourists would hypothetically hear the bang and see the smoke though.
Or hear the drilling or sawing.
Anyway, it's an easy walk out along the ridge below for a better view....

In the winter the deer will be watching you, or the goats :)

There must be other drops left to do?

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Re: Hypothetically.... river bed alterations!

Post by morsey »

Poke wrote:Image
I got it, but it was a QI alarm moment.

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Re: Hypothetically.... river bed alterations!

Post by morsey »

Scientific name: Cambarus sp.
Common name: Crayfish

Ecological Significance
Crayfish are an important component of our stream ecosystem. They are significant links in the complex aquatic and terrestrial food webs in our ecosystem and, by their feeding, burrowing, and foraging activities, help to maintain a high level of water quality in our stream to the great benefit of so many of our Nature Trail species.

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Re: Hypothetically.... river bed alterations!

Post by Jim »

morsey - please take this in good humour!

Terrestrial is 'of the earth', in the scientific example above they are using it quite specifically to distinguish between aquatic, terrestrial and aerial food webs (of the water, of the earth and of the air), whilst in the more generic form it refers to Earth with a capital E (i.e. tha name of the planet) hence the jokes about extra-terrestrial Crayfish.

However, whichever level you want to take terrestrial at, all the Crayfish you mean are terrestrial, they all live on Earth, and they are all part of a food chain of the earth (as well as food chain of the water).

You clearly (by context) meant indigenous or native but wrote terrestrial by mistake and no amount of back-tracking can actually change the context of your original comment and stop us taking the whizz out of it.... :)

Maybe you weren't thinking of extra-terrestrial Crayfish at all, but aerial Crayfish?
I find it more plausible that a type of aquatic-terrestrial crayfish may exist on another planet. than an aerial one existing here.

I do hope our bullying doesn't drive you over the edge.

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Re: Hypothetically.... river bed alterations!

Post by morsey »

morsey wrote:Non native crayfish
Did I not write that?


The joke was droll, tumbleweedesque. The gif was peak. The mansplaining was UKRGB par excellence.

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Re: Hypothetically.... river bed alterations!

Post by banzer »

'Like' button....

.... off-tangent banter was / is what makes ukrgb great!

Reckon I could do it without getting rumbled, highly unlikely I'll bother though. But it would make for a pretty cool start to the Dundonnel, if you include the other drop higher up in the photo.
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Re: Hypothetically.... river bed alterations!

Post by roo »

Lets see if this link works.

A different but, probably not accessible approach to river bed modifications.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 750&type=3

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Re: Hypothetically.... river bed alterations!

Post by roo »

Jim wrote: I do hope our bullying doesn't drive you over the edge.
http://www.benefitsofkayaking.com/canoe ... anoe+Kayak

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