Rescue kit

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Kayak_ben
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Rescue kit

Post by Kayak_ben » Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:13 pm

Looking at puting together a rescue kit, currently only have a hf weasel and petzl carabiner, what other kit to people recommend possibly pulleys or extra crabs? Pleas give exact details of personal preferences

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John K
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Rescue kit

Post by John K » Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:34 pm

Most people have realised that they don't need pulleys if they use a webbing tape for a mechanical advantage system. Something like a Palm "Rescue tape" is pretty handy and multipurpose, and combined with carabiners are all you need. Bear in mind that if the rest of your team each have a tape and a couple of carabiners then you don't necessarily need to carry everything yourself.

Whetman have some new cool rescue kit that includes stainless steel rings that provide a smaller, lighter alternative to carabiners in rescue setups. Definitely worth considering and there's a good video on their site which explains how it works.

http://www.whetmanequipment.com/python-5m--pig-rig.html

Before you go shopping though it's probably best to get on a WWSR course if you can and play with a variety of kit and see what you like.

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Re: Rescue kit

Post by Kayak_ben » Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:31 pm

Forgot to say I also that the tape you mentioned okay, noted seems I may have the basics to start and a course would be a good point before the shopping spree

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Re: Rescue kit

Post by MikeVeal » Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:00 pm

Palm rescue tape.
Knife on your BA.
DMM Big Boa carabiner with a quicklock gate.
Couple of oval ally crabs with screwlock gates.
20m throwline.
Roll of duck tape.
2* loops of 6mm cord to make prussiks.

Depending on who I'm taking and where I'm going I also carry a folding saw, a spare paddle, a group shelter, a second throwline, a group flask, small first aid kit, partridge, pear tree...

But the most important thing to take is the knowledge of how to use the kit you're carrying. Book yerself a course before you spend too much.

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Re: Rescue kit

Post by Ian5 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:15 pm


Kayak_ben
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Re: Rescue kit

Post by Kayak_ben » Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:52 pm

Lots of interesting points here guys keep them coming also any hints and tips to add to the mix before I book a course are of course very welcome

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Re: Rescue kit

Post by feedbackproblem » Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:38 pm

I always carry a knife and a little dry capsule containing a £20 note in my BA and a Palm snake sling with large carabiner in the waist seal of my cag / drysuit and most of the time in the front of my boat I have a Palm 20m throwline held in place with another large carabiner (if I've time I remove the carabiner before lobbing the rope at a swimmer but in an emergency I figure that a swimmer would prefer a rope with a bit of metal attached to the end rather than no rope).

Then, depending on what type of trip it is, who I'm with and what type of boat I'm in, I may have a selection of the following in the back of my boat held in place with a variety of large carabiners:
- Spare paddle (to be fair, this lives pretty constantly in the back of my Burn)
- Small dry bag containing wooly hat & warm gloves for off the water and a spare pair of gloves/pogies for on the water)
- Small drybag with a waterproof First aid kit and insect repellant
- Small "emergency kit" dry bag containing a multitool, head torch, string, garden ties, lighter, tube of super glue, tube of plumbers mait (for an urgent hole repair on a boat), a compass, a couple of glow sticks, spare bung, spare nose peg, a couple of spare outfitting bolts that fit my boat and of course a small roll of waterproof gaffer tape.
- blizzard survival bag

Individually nothing weighs very much but when you pack it all together it adds up so whilst my original intention was to have kit permanently in the back of my boat in reality I'm much more ruthless and pick and choose depending on the conditions (I don't think I've ever paddled with all of the above in my boat at the same time).

I have 3 Clog Climbing UK 12mm locking HMS carabiners and 1 Palm spring gate carabiner that I'd say are key components of my rescue kit. I went for the Clog crabs because they're huge (and weren't really exoensive), I previously used Palm locking gate crabs but after a rather unpleasant experience on my WWSR course when I ended up stuck mid river because my crab wasn't quite big enough to get over a knot in a tensioned line I decided to upgrade.

I don't carry pulleys, prussiks or anything else I don't know how to use.

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Re: Rescue kit

Post by Gwynfor » Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:27 pm

Those Whetman products look interesting, and might mean that more people have the gear needed to make a Pig rig.

One thing though - their video explainer on how to set up a Pig Rig is wrong. There needs to be a knot at the anchor to stop the sling sliding through the ring there. Only then will it be a 2:1 pulling on a 2:1.

The correct way to do it (complete with hard hats and full body harness!) is shown in;

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Re: Rescue kit

Post by DaveBland » Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:58 am

Does anybody really need all the pulleys and stuff?
Worst case you can rig a 3:1 with any crabs and slings you have between you.
And if a boat is truly stuck so bad, there's always a trip back to the car to get what you need and come back another day.
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John K
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Rescue kit

Post by John K » Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:48 am

Gwynfor wrote:One thing though - their video explainer on how to set up a Pig Rig is wrong. There needs to be a knot at the anchor to stop the sling sliding through the ring there. Only then will it be a 2:1 pulling on a 2:1.
It may seem counterintuitive, but someone (Simon Westgarth?) did some tests a while back and it turned out that you don't need any knots. There's a long thread somewhere here about it.

Edit: Found it. There's some interesting reading here:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=79224&start=30#p570588

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Re: Rescue kit

Post by Ian Dallaway » Wed Dec 21, 2016 7:34 am

John K wrote:
Gwynfor wrote:One thing though - their video explainer on how to set up a Pig Rig is wrong. There needs to be a knot at the anchor to stop the sling sliding through the ring there. Only then will it be a 2:1 pulling on a 2:1.
It may seem counterintuitive, but someone (Simon Westgarth?) did some tests a while back and it turned out that you don't need any knots. There's a long thread somewhere here about it.

Edit: Found it. There's some interesting reading here:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=79224&start=30#p570588

The definitive answer, as John K mentioned in his post above, is not to have a knot at the anchor end of the pig-rig. Also using webbing tape for the pig-rig (rather than rope) does make the mechanical advantage system more efficient.

If in doubt, then set it up for yourself and try it. If you're still in doubt then book yourself on a WWS&R course.



See the link to a previous thread on this topic - quoted above.
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Re: Rescue kit

Post by Adrian Cooper » Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:15 am

John K wrote: but someone (Simon Westgarth?) did some tests a while back and it turned out that you don't need any knots. There's a long thread somewhere here about it.

Edit: Found it. There's some interesting reading here:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=79224&start=30#p570588
Actually, Mike Moxon did the tests with his results in this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=22073&p=463688&hili ... al#p463688

There is loads of chat about it there following a simple mechanical advantage system proposed by Wilf without a piggy back. The 'roving' nature was rather frowned upon but after a while, it became accepted and Mike's testing was part of the reason. The maths are pretty simple and help to explain why the system does not need to be locked off.

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Re: Rescue kit

Post by Performance Kayaks » Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:10 am

Weasel is only good for swimmer rescue. Get a Cored Rope for Boat Rescue. Palm 20m or HF Alpine are my favorites.
At least 2 HWS Screw Gate Krabs, and make sure they are all the same.
Pully.
2.4m sling and Krab
1.2m sling and Krab
Palm Rescue Tape and palm Wiregate Krab
Knife, Not Serrated.

Get on a course to learn how to use it, and most importantly, practice how to use it.

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Re: Rescue kit

Post by John K » Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:42 am

Performance Kayaks wrote:Knife, Not Serrated.
That's interesting. Most rescue knifes have serrated blades, because they're generally thought to be better at cutting ropes. Why do you prefer a plain blade?

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Re: Rescue kit

Post by TechnoEngineer » Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:59 am

How I set up a Pig Rig:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/q8ya2q5yyo0uk ... P.PNG?dl=0

Also if someone else is engaged with the first and second stages of a boat extraction, I'd begin setting up the Pig Rig immediately, so that if the simple methods of freeing the boat don't work out, the Pig Rig is already set up by the time it is needed.

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Re: Rescue kit

Post by TechnoEngineer » Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:08 pm

1) If you don't like using closed slings, is there any point to having a "Snake Sling"? Normally I'd use a short piece of rope or tape to wrap around a rock or tree to provide an anchor.
Last edited by TechnoEngineer on Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rescue kit

Post by TechnoEngineer » Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:11 pm

2) There is a difference of opinion regarding whether it's better to have:
a) a small throwline easily accessible in the kayak for bagging swimmers, and a second more meaty throwline clipped behind the seat for extracting boats.
b) a meatier throwline easily accessible in the kayak for doing everything, that would weigh more to carry around and take longer to repack.

For case (a) I carry the throwline in a drybag so that it's kept dry and clean, and also put the prussiks and crabs in there too.

What are people's thoughts on this?
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Re: Rescue kit

Post by Performance Kayaks » Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:24 pm

John K wrote:Why do you prefer a plain blade?
Have found that serrated blades snag on rope, particularly if not under high tension. Whereas a sharp plain blade has no jags to snag and, as a bonus, slices your cheese at the campsite better.

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Re: Rescue kit

Post by Franky » Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:33 pm

TechnoEngineer wrote:a) a small throwline easily accessible in the kayak for bagging swimmers, and a second more meaty throwline clipped behind the seat for extracting boats.
Someone suggested to me recently that you shouldn't need a throwline to be easily accessible in the kayak, as throwlines are only ever used from the bank. As long as you can get at the throwline easily when you're out of the boat (by unclipping your back rest), you're not losing time.

But perhaps there are situations in which you can use a throwline from the boat. I don't recall any being mentioned on the WWSR course I did.

I'd be interested to know, as I like to use the cockpit tray for drinks, and I'd rather know I can do so with a clear conscience!

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Re: Rescue kit

Post by TechnoEngineer » Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:54 pm

Franky that's straying into "assumption is the mother of all f**kups" territory.

1) You could chuck your throwline out of the kayak to someone who's stood on a bank.
2) If someone's being recirculated in a stopper, you can dispense a few metres of rope out of the bag and chuck it to the swimmer, and then lob the rest of the line with bag to someone on the bank.
3) If you're pinned, you may have the scenario open to you to access your throwline, hold the rope end and lob the bag to a rescuer. Throwlines don't work unidirectionally ;)

...and so on. Who was your WWSR provider?
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Re: Rescue kit

Post by Kayak_ben » Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:20 pm

I must say I do like the look of the alpin to add to my kit as the main line and keep my weasel hip mounted perhaps

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Re: Rescue kit

Post by Chalky723 » Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:29 pm

TechnoEngineer wrote:Franky that's straying into "assumption is the mother of all f**kups" territory.

1) You could chuck your throwline out of the kayak to someone who's stood on a bank.
2) If someone's being recirculated in a stopper, you can dispense a few metres of rope out of the bag and chuck it to the swimmer, and then lob the rest of the line with bag to someone on the bank.
3) If you're pinned, you may have the scenario open to you to access your throwline, hold the rope end and lob the bag to a rescuer. Throwlines don't work unidirectionally ;)

...and so on. Who was your WWSR provider?

Hmm,

1) If they're on the bank, they should have their own rope with them, if they're close enough to throw it to, I'll just paddle to the bank & let them take it from the back of my boat.
2) Sorry, I'm never going to pull my deck & give someone an end of rope when on or near a stopper!
3) The one vid I saw of someone doing something like that, they'd got out of their boat & pulled the rope from behind their seat...

I keep a 5m tape in my BA, that has been enough for "quick rescue" situations in the past. I must admit, we certainly didn't touch using Throwlines from the boat on my WWSR, but that was 3 years ago, maybe things have changed....

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Re: Rescue kit

Post by Franky » Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:52 pm

TechnoEngineer wrote:Franky that's straying into "assumption is the mother of all f**kups" territory.
[...]
...and so on. Who was your WWSR provider?
Interesting points. I was assuming that anyone already on the bank would have their own rescue kit (otherwise why did they bother getting out?!), but there could be situations where that's not the case. E.g. somebody might be portaging and not have their own throwline but be able to help out with rescue. Mind you, in that situation I'd have thought that if you were going to stay on the river and give someone else the throwline, you'd do so beforehand from an eddy, where you wouldn't need it in the cockpit, rather than lobbing it from the middle of the river.

As for my WWSR provider - it was a respected and widely-used operator. The course was a couple of years ago and I don't remember everything from it. The person who suggested not having the throwline in the cockpit was a fellow paddler who had heard it somewhere else, so I don't claim any authority.

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Re: Rescue kit

Post by Adrian Cooper » Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:32 am

To re-establish Jason's deliberate misquote 'necessity is the mother of invention'. Assuming someone on the bank has their own safety kit - what if they are a beginner without safety kit but the skills to throw a rope. You are in the river but it might waste time heading back to the eddy to give someone a throwline. Why not have a throwline in the cockpit where it is most easily accessible. Sure hauling on a line from a boat is not going to be effective but being in the boat might be the best way to get a rope to the victim. All of these are just possibilities but there could just be a situation where coming up with a new way of doing things is the best thing to do. Not everything you learn on a WWSR is gospel and cannot be improved upon. The example of the pig rig given earlier is a case in point, it is currently being taught differently from how it was just 5 years ago.

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Re: Rescue kit

Post by Chalky723 » Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:51 am

Adrian Cooper wrote:Sure hauling on a line from a boat is not going to be effective but being in the boat might be the best way to get a rope to the victim..
Still not going to happen I'm afraid, unless I can 100% guarantee I won't end up in the drink with a loose rope floating around me & make the situation a lot worse.

Of course, things may change when I'm actually in that situation & can make an informed assessment but, from behind my keyboard, I'm going to stick to my guns!

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Re: Rescue kit

Post by feedbackproblem » Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:15 pm

TechnoEngineer wrote:Franky that's straying into "assumption is the mother of all f**kups" territory.

1) You could chuck your throwline out of the kayak to someone who's stood on a bank.
2) If someone's being recirculated in a stopper, you can dispense a few metres of rope out of the bag and chuck it to the swimmer, and then lob the rest of the line with bag to someone on the bank.
3) If you're pinned, you may have the scenario open to you to access your throwline, hold the rope end and lob the bag to a rescuer. Throwlines don't work unidirectionally ;)

...and so on. Who was your WWSR provider?
I'm not at all convinced by any of these points. I choose to keep my throwline in the front of my cockpit but that's purely for quick access when I'm not in my boat, I know that with cold fingers it can be a fiddle to get my packed lunch out from behind the back rest so that's a few seconds I can save if I need to act quickly.

I did my WWSR through Canoe Wales centre at the Tryweryn, there were no mentions of any boat based rope rescue scenarios and we certainly weren't told that we must not stow throwlines behind our seats, just that they should be easily accessible. I've just had a quick flick through the WWSR book by Franco Ferrero and the only mention of any use of ropes from within boats is as a swim line for an open boat (i.e. the throwline is kept clipped to the boat and in the event of a capsize the swimmer can grab the end, swim to the shore ans pull the boat in) and for roping swimmers from rafts, I can't see anything relating to throwing ropes from kayaks on the water. In fact, in regards to stowage of a throwline it says "Some people like to carry their throw bag on their buoyancy aid and others prefer to clip it to a strong point in the raft/open boat or behind the backrest of their kayak..."

Looking at the 3 scenarios above my comments would be:
1 - If they didn't already have one I'd have given my rope to the person on the bank before the feature if they were providing safety or portaging. So the only scenario I can see this occuring in is if there are 2 swimmers and one has got themselves to the bank but no longer has their kit with them. If this is the case then if swimmer No 1 has got out of the water then I'm going to be able to get out of my boat and get my throwline out, if however, swimmer No 1 has been luckily "swept" on to the bank and there's no realistic way of getting out of my boat, then it is highly unlikely that I'm going to want to navigate the same stretch of water whilst taking off my deck, unhitching the throwline from between my legs and reattaching my deck. Even if I thought there was a reasonable chance of me being able to get the throwline out, I can't really imagine a situation where I'd risk losing our only available throwline by trying to toss it from a moving boat in tricky water to someone on the river bank so I'd me much more inclined to keep hold of it and look for a safe egress point downstream and start running.
2 - This sounds dangerous. As soon as the person in the stopper gets the rope they're going to start pulling, they're not going to passively wait for you to throw the rest of the rope to someone on the bank which will either pull you in (if the rope is under tension) or at the very least prevent you from throwing it to the person on the bank which means that you and the swimmer are going to be at risk of getting tangled up in a floating rope. There's no way that a person can throw a rope further whilst sitting in a kayak than can be done from a vantage point on a bank, especially if some of the rope is coiled out of the bag, so a straight throw from the bank would be the best option. The only variation I can see where this type of rescue might be necessary would be if the person on the bank didn't have a line of sight to the swimmer (e.g. behind a rock) so they threw one end of a rope to a kayaker who could throw it on to the victim to get around the obstacle.
3 - If I'm pinned and I'm in a position to pop my deck and have enough body movement to be able to spot a rescuer and throw my line to them then I am probably safe. If my potential rescuers do not already have their own rescue kit then it is very unlikely that they have the skills required to extricate me from the situation so they might well be better employed looking for outside assistance. There's also an argument to be made that you are more likely to be hindered from getting out of your boat in a tricky pinning situation by a bulky throwline between your legs than you are to use it as a rescue aid.

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Re: Rescue kit

Post by Adrian Cooper » Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:53 pm

It doesn't work if you make up scenarios and then make up reasons to reject them.

In 1. maybe you didn't give your rope to someone on the bank. Maybe said person did not have a line. Maybe they do but they left it upstream with their boat and you need one in a hurry.

In 2. surely you can imagine a boxed in gorge with a sharp bend and overgrown above the stopper such that access above cannot be obtained. One paddler swims, one paddle gets through and breaks out into a micro eddy, throws line to swimmer, heads around corner with rope to get to the bank, swimmer then can haul on taught rope. Until the rope is on the bank there is nothing for him to tug on.

In 3. you might be safe in the middle of the river but unable to get yourself out without something to hang onto or you might not like to swim the rapid below where you are pinned because it feeds into a strainer and would rather someone pendulum you into the bank.

Just because you don't have a particular example doesn't mean you should reject any possibility that a circumstance might arise where something new might be useful.

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Re: Rescue kit

Post by TechnoEngineer » Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:05 pm

As Adrian says, there's little point in denying yourself options for no good reason.
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Re: Rescue kit

Post by Franky » Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:12 pm

Adrian Cooper wrote:Sure hauling on a line from a boat is not going to be effective but being in the boat might be the best way to get a rope to the victim.
Maybe, if the rope has been thrown from the side, and the victim missed it. Otherwise, I can't see any general advantage in using a boat to get the rope to the victim. I suppose if they're a weak swimmer and in an eddy, then you can paddle up to them and hand them the rope. Even then, the rope should have been thrown from the bank, so it's unlikely to be your rope in the first place. On the other hand, if the victim is being washed downstream, and you're a paddler trying to hand them one end of a throwline in the middle of rapids while the other is being held by someone running along the bank... there are a lot of things that could go wrong, and I would think it safer for the paddler to release their end, let the safety person haul their rope back in as they're running, and try another throw further downstream.
All of these are just possibilities but there could just be a situation where coming up with a new way of doing things is the best thing to do. Not everything you learn on a WWSR is gospel and cannot be improved upon. The example of the pig rig given earlier is a case in point, it is currently being taught differently from how it was just 5 years ago.
Sure... But I think the point of WWSR is that it gets you considering in advance the "standard" rescue scenarios, so that you have a definite plan when they arise, and you minimise the amount of thinking you have to do. Of course by definition a rescue scenario will have unpredictable aspects, but if you *are* in a scenario where inventiveness is called for, the biggest expenditure of time will be in the problem-solving, rather than in the physical act of getting to your rope.

The upshot of this debate is that, for the moment, I'm going to keep using my cockpit tray for Lucozade.

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Re: Rescue kit

Post by damppaddler » Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:54 pm

1st aid kit with a small pair of snips for cutting the barbs of discarded fishing hook - a friend went under a tree and got one through his thumb - he didn't have snips with him but since hearing how he pulled it out, I've always paddled with snips since

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