First thing you coach on WW

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DaveBland
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Re: First thing you coach on WW

Post by DaveBland » Wed Dec 07, 2016 8:04 pm

Simon, we are kinda both talking about the same thing, but you are slightly inaccurate.

Let's take leaving an eddy into the current. You say the boat has to be flat so the hull slides onto it. That's kinda right, but it isn't actually flat for long. It's a transition from one edge to the other - an upstream to downstream edge - rolling slightly up onto the current. If kept totally flat the edge will snag as the current coming down is higher than the eddy level. It's not much, but just the timing of the paddle strokes alone will activate an edge.

As far as teaching beginners - to tell them to keep the boat flat and not engage a lean is asking for trouble. It's far better to teach them angle and speed of attack and let them focus on that, while maintaining a downstream edge and not having to think about it.

The biggest problem beginners have breaking in, is hitting the flow at too slow a speed and to square an angle so they get spun and never actually attain the current.

And as far as my paddling and how I was taught - let's go with self taught old dog who has no intention of learning new tricks. So you are right there.
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Re: First thing you coach on WW

Post by buck197 » Wed Dec 07, 2016 8:32 pm

So we are agreed then that after 4 pages on this thread that we all teach different things in differing orders. We can't even agree on how to leave an eddy therefore beginners must be a little concerned reading the advice above.
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Re: First thing you coach on WW

Post by SimonMW » Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:12 pm

DaveBland wrote:Simon, we are kinda both talking about the same thing, but you are slightly inaccurate.

Let's take leaving an eddy into the current. You say the boat has to be flat so the hull slides onto it. That's kinda right, but it isn't actually flat for long. It's a transition from one edge to the other
As I described, no, it isn't always an edge to edge transition. For example like I mentioned about continuing on towards the bank without any sort of eddy turn. Slalom paddlers sometimes use this too, crossing a mid current eddy flat with speed to get to a gate using controlling strokes to counteract the forces because they do not want to lose speed by ending up in an eddy turn or s-turn.

Regarding the old dog not wanting new tricks, I find that rather depressing. Why limit your way of thinking? Oh well.

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Re: First thing you coach on WW

Post by Simon Westgarth » Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:36 pm

Franky wrote:Tactics before technique? So would you say "Get from this side of the river to the other side without being washed downstream" without any explanation of edging or the need to point upstream?

Or is the assumption that these aspects of technique are so obvious they shouldn't need to be taught at all? I am not dim, but they weren't obvious to me.
I do not run the river by ferry gliding my way downriver, that'll be like looking up river whilst trying to drop down to the next eddy.

Basic tactics for river running, like we start on the right, move to the middle and eddy out on the left, thus right to left lateral momentum to created and maintained throughout. No need to speak too much about edging, as if the kayaker to looking towards where they are going, or turn their head to present a change in direction. If the kayak is driven into the eddy at 45º, the boat is flat, the eddy line is cut through. The kayaker should turn after the eddyline, no matter whether they are coming or going. There are exceptions, like the rare occasion of making micro eddies, but most of the time, a turn occurs either in the flow after leaving the eddy or in the eddy, after arriving into the eddy.

Much like the learning of lines on the small range of regularly paddled runs found in the UK, means the development of tactics is over looked. Equally learning to edge to solve every eddy line problems, means when the challenge is upscaled whether on steeper or bigger white water, these tools are limited and thus limiting in their use.

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Re: First thing you coach on WW

Post by Simon Westgarth » Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:41 pm

DaveBland wrote:**late night drunk alert**

... But Bollocks. Eddying out and breaking in flat just don't happen. As Jim says, 'wrong way' edge is often a choice and yeah sure, flat does happen, but stopped clocks are right twice a day.
Paddling is all about the edge. Even in minute amounts.
The only tjmd you are truly flag is probably when surfing and ahead of the wavd waiting for thd lift to kick back in. Paddles up, enjoyinv thd stall.
Yeah that's fun.
Delightful and clearly drunken nonsense.

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Re: First thing you coach on WW

Post by Franky » Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:43 pm

SimonMW wrote:Franky, I do not know how long you have paddled or what your paddling is like, but if you can't accept what is demonstrated in front of you, then there's not much I can say to change your mind. Other than to suggest coaching by certain companies here and maybe to keep an open mind rather than shutting off new ideas and concepts that might be alien to what you have been taught before.
(Trying to wean myself off this thread but it's interesting and I can't...)

I'm an intermediate paddler. I've been WW paddling for 4 years, and regularly for 2 years. I'm comfortable on grade 3 and do paddle grade 4 (mostly the LV Olympic at the moment), but on the latter I have, shall we say, good days and bad days.

I'm not being argumentative for the sake of it, and maybe the disagreement is down to what one classifies as edging. If my definition of it as "lifting a knee to stay stable" is fundamentally wrong, I apologise for my misunderstanding, and accept I'm wrong.

All I'll say is that when I look at the video that Simon posted, and ignore the commentary, that's pretty much how I attempt to paddle.

It's worth pointing out that the video actually shows only one example of the paddler deliberately not applying an edge - and that looks to be on a flatter part of a grade 2 river. If someone could show me a paddler keeping their line in a similar way on grade 3 or 4, I'm clearly mistaken. Yet most of the footage in that video shows the paddler applying edge whenever the water actually gets white.
Last edited by Franky on Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: First thing you coach on WW

Post by Simon Westgarth » Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:49 pm

Franky wrote:Maybe I should be totally clear. By "edging" I mean "lifting a knee", however slightly. The boat may stay flat because you are merely counteracting the water's attempt to roll you over. But the technique you are using is called edging and it's the same whether the boat leans or not.

If you don't use your legs then you are relying entirely on your arms to keep yourself balanced. This "technique" is the opposite of everything I have ever been taught, by peers, by coaches, in books, and till now, by everything I've read by experienced paddlers on this forum!
This is not about dismissing your reasoning, as of course the knee is lifted, but buy which means is probably the more important matter for a coach. Try this, sit in your kayak, raid both arms to shoulder height, and simply rotate the whole upper body to the right, look that way. Do not drop your arms. What does the left knee do?

Your kayak should now be edging, you should feel pressure on the left knee. Far above I talk about turning your head, yet in truth the whole upper body needs to present to the change, for the change to feel natural. Simply looking with the head, means once a beginner starts to turn, they can end up being lazy and turn their eyes to see, a kind of short cut if you like.

Use this method after crossing eddy lines and the turn will occur in the flow or in the eddy and not at the eddyline.

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Re: First thing you coach on WW

Post by Simon Westgarth » Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:54 pm

Adrian Cooper wrote:
jsymonds wrote:I would like to know the reason why no edge is being proposed now (especially as edge/tilt was covered on the Gene17 instruction videos), what has changed?
USP
In short we make progress. In the long view, the first instructional videos examined the orthodoxy, the later ones, like Genotype 2 present a more modern style, which ideas like key stroke concept and edging at the apex of a turn, with little edging elsewhere.

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Re: First thing you coach on WW

Post by Simon Westgarth » Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:01 pm

DaveBland wrote:The look where ou are going thing totally works if you are continually paddling, however the problem with beginners is the stop and drift.
That's where the "lean downstream" mantra comes in to it's own. And of course you have to understand which way downstream is to do that – hence a bit of a briefing on how rivers work helps first.

And even though I may be a bit more sober now [sorry] I still can't believe anyone thinks that on ww an edge isn't constantly [95%] engaged. It's like saying that edges aren't always engaged for snowboarding or skiing.

Take the ferry gliding example. Sure in theory, the correct angle and speed should be enough with a level boat – but the current is never even, necessitating constant minor edging corrections to keep the boat trimmed correctly.
"Whoop Whoop, someone's world view is under challenge..........keyboard being punched in a demanding fashion"

I edge where most paddlers keep their boat flat and keep my boat flat where most paddlers edge.

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Re: First thing you coach on WW

Post by Simon Westgarth » Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:05 pm

DaveBland wrote:He had little other option than a ruddy big back stroke. Sometimes it's just more important to be facing the right way than having speed.
Not ideal, but there's no faster way to turn a boat than a big digging backwards grunt stroke.
More of the same old orthodoxy......

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Re: First thing you coach on WW

Post by DaveBland » Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:38 pm

SimonMW wrote:[Regarding the old dog not wanting new tricks, I find that rather depressing. Why limit your way of thinking? Oh well.
Simon Westgarth wrote: More of the same old orthodoxy......
After 40 years of doing it the same way, I'm too far gone to change :)
And my 'limited' thinking is that if at 50, I'm still regularly paddling G4 and 5, then however I'm doing it must be working for me.
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Re: First thing you coach on WW

Post by Simon Westgarth » Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:43 pm

My analysis of the kayaker in the video: https://www.dropbox.com/s/1aq2zp5nx731z ... C.MP4?dl=0

What is happening, the paddler is running from a wider channel into a narrower channel, this makes the water both accelerate and get compressed, in detail this means the water on the sides get pushed towards the centre. If in this case the paddler starts on the right, they can carry the right to centre flow by adding to that and finish on the left. As the right eddy is the target, starting on the left is logical, as the left to centre flow can be added to by the paddler to create lateral momentum to the right.

Therefore in terms of tactics, starting on the right and going back to the right, presents difficulties in execution, hence why the look of the move appears laboured. An alternative is to ferry out to the middle, turn back to the right and then build middle to right momentum, or simply could of been approaching from the left to make the right eddy.

Once the paddler gets to the middle, where the fastest flow is, they turn the bow to face right, adding spin momentum quite the boat is being accelerated. From that point the paddler is then dealing with this unwanted spin momentum. A reverse stroke is used to kill the spin momentum, and then the paddler works the up river side of there boat to create an angle to approach the eddy line. Using this up river working, the boat is edged to the active blade, and the as such the boat is kind locked into my turning to well as too much edge is presented to the active blade. Is this because the paddler is used to edging into the eddy turn very early before the eddy line? The use of the sweep come stern rudder come support outrigger stroke, may suggest they feel support is needed in their turning. Especially with the forward scull action used as the clip ends....(perhaps this is where the trim explanations seen in the comments come from).

A solution would be that the paddler uses the up river sweep with their boat flat, and then built momentum towards the eddy. Personally, I edge slightly downriver on the approach to eddies, as it stops the boat turning early as I arrive into slower current, or being deflected away by lateral waves. This use of down river edging on approaching eddies is called tracking.

Above I point out the use of working the upriver side of the boat by the paddler. This action, is quite undesirable as its pretty easy for the paddler flip on the upriver side.

One note of caution with all this, is that for this paddler, they are the focus of some scrutiny here, and after all this is a single clip thats all.

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Re: First thing you coach on WW

Post by Simon Westgarth » Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:45 pm

DaveBland wrote:
SimonMW wrote:[Regarding the old dog not wanting new tricks, I find that rather depressing. Why limit your way of thinking? Oh well.
Simon Westgarth wrote: More of the same old orthodoxy......
After 40 years of doing it the same way, I'm too far gone to change :)
And my 'limited' thinking is that if at 50, I'm still regularly paddling G4 and 5, then however I'm doing it must be working for me.
There are many ways to skin a cat, even old ones.

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Re: First thing you coach on WW

Post by DaveBland » Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:50 pm

Simon Westgarth wrote:Personally, I edge slightly downriver on the approach to eddies, as it stops the boat turning early as I arrive into slower current, or being deflected away by lateral waves.
dave

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Re: First thing you coach on WW

Post by davebrads » Thu Dec 08, 2016 10:38 am

Franky wrote:Not edging is a neat trick, but edging is almost always the surest way to stay in control of your boat while you're learning.
If you are taught to edge on breaking into or out of the current you will always do it, and you will never find that sweet spot where the edging is "just right" (which of course can be no edging at all). You see this all the time at any white water course where paddlers over-edge the boats on breaking into the current. They don't have control of the boat, the water does, all they have done is managed to stay upright (and not always that), until they finally get the boat level again and regain control. It's like the low brace break-in, taught as a "safe" way of entering the current, but I know paddlers who have been taught it who seem to be totally unable to move on from it despite the fact that it gets them in so much trouble once they move up the grades.

There is a lot of good stuff being talked about in this thread by some very experienced white water paddlers, you really should listen.
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Re: First thing you coach on WW

Post by twopigs » Thu Dec 08, 2016 11:26 am

davebrads wrote: There is a lot of good stuff being talked about in this thread by some very experienced white water paddlers, you really should listen.
I'm sure that is not directed at any one contributor. All this wisdom for free!

I recall somebody describing that edge away from the eddy you're heading for and then change to the other edge about 15 years ago ......

So much for new tricks!
Canoeing - bigger boat, broken paddle, more skill!

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Re: First thing you coach on WW

Post by Adrian Cooper » Thu Dec 08, 2016 11:52 am

SimonMW wrote: I do not know how long you have paddled or what your paddling is like, but if you can't accept what is demonstrated in front of you, then there's not much I can say to change your mind. ....................maybe to keep an open mind rather than shutting off new ideas and concepts ....
Not a coaching strategy I have seen very often. Perhaps it could do with a new catchy term like condescentionism.

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Re: First thing you coach on WW

Post by Simon Westgarth » Thu Dec 08, 2016 1:15 pm

twopigs wrote:I recall somebody describing that edge away from the eddy you're heading for and then change to the other edge about 15 years ago ......

So much for new tricks!
The orthodoxy can take an age to recognise the need for change......... In watching Div1 paddlers at a slalom when I was 15 hold the down river edge across an eddy line and deep into an eddy to then pivot with a bow rubber through the gate, that was in the late 80's, and opened my perception to recognising the possibilities of what can be done is half the battle to create any meaningful progress.

Here's something you might not come across though. Again more a logical leap out of necessity than considered insight to the workings of white water. In powerful eddies when I go to break in, as I go up the eddy, I edge up river, slightly but I edge whilst I am building momentum to drove through the eddy line. I have found this to be the best way to stop the kayak starting to spin with the circular rotating flow of the eddy.

If I keep the boat flat the eddy will try to spin my kayak. With beginners whom pre-load the edge before even arriving at the eddyline to make their turn, their kayak is often already started to spin, so once they are at the eddy line, the bow gets pulled hard down river or they are already sideways on to the eddy line, either way the paddlers never tend to cross the eddy line and will edge more to try and solve these moments of instability. Which is of course a common place solution.

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Re: First thing you coach on WW

Post by Jim » Thu Dec 08, 2016 3:26 pm

Franky wrote:As for "it's the concept that we also gain stability through directional momentum" - that sounds scientific, but it's a vague generalisation that disregards any number of variables that affect how in control a paddler is. I can maximise my directional momentum by paddling at full pelt down a river, but have I gained any stability worth gaining?
YES.

You experience it more noticeably when riding a bike, standing stationary on 2 wheels is difficult, you tend to fall off, start moving and it gets easier to keep the bike upright. OK there are a number of mechanisms involved with a bike and the gyroscope effect of the wheels is probably part of why the effect is so much stronger than it is in a boat. Try a marathon kayak if you need to convince yourself that you gain stability in motion which you don't have when stationary.
Of course in a wide stable creek boat the difference between moving and stationary stability is much less pronounced because you feel pretty stable on the flat when stationary, it is when you have external influences trying to push you around that the the motion stability starts to become useful, but it is probably not possible to feel it except if you paddle a section over and over again slow and fast and get to feel the difference.

Long before it became something that coaches started trying to understand, define and teach, we had observed that beginners who stop paddling and bob down a rapid (even if they stop paddling to drag a low brace) fell in much more than those who kept a fairly even paddle rhythm up on the same rapid. Many instructors and experienced paddlers taking beginners out have been telling them to try to keep paddling in rapids for, well at least 20 years that I have been doing it, probably much longer, someone was probably telling me to do it 25 years ago...

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Re: First thing you coach on WW

Post by DaveBland » Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:06 pm

Can I just ask if we have established that when eddying out
The boat is on an edge of some sort approaching the eddy line - then is flat as it crosses the eddy line - then is on some degree of edge again when in the eddy?
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Re: First thing you coach on WW

Post by Jim » Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:09 pm

DaveBland wrote:Simon, we are kinda both talking about the same thing, but you are slightly inaccurate.

Let's take leaving an eddy into the current. You say the boat has to be flat so the hull slides onto it.
Hey, there is no 'have to' or 'must do' in paddlesport.
There is an evolving understanding of the mechanics of the way paddling works and some of what was taught in the past is now considered less than ideal, or in this case good in some situations, sub-optimal in others.

If you want to cross an eddyline and keep moving in the same direction for a while beyond the eddyline, you want to keep the boat pretty flat as you cross it. If you want to turn sharply as or immediately after you cross the eddyline, edge it as you cross the eddyline. If you want to bounce off the eddyline, edge it before you reach the eddyline. Of course in all 3 cases the speed of the water, strength of the eddy, size of the eddy and other factors will all affect the outcome so those are generalisations, in particular a lot of people get away with edging too early on slower water, or if the eddy is really narrow the intention might be to turn the boat just before you get there and then ferry glide accross the eddyline.

The point is, if you want to cross the eddyline as smoothly and quickly as possible, you do it without edge, and then add the edge later when you are ready to turn.

I was like you a couple of years ago, instinctively rolling quite a lot of edge every time I crossed an eddyline , then I started paddling OC1, and then slalom (C1 & K1) and started to think about stuff more and have re-learned some of the stuff I used to do. If you edge too early with a single blade on an offside breakout (or in) you can't compensate with a paddle stroke as you almost certainly have been doing in kayaks for many years, so you have to learn better timing.

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Re: First thing you coach on WW

Post by Jim » Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:11 pm

DaveBland wrote:Can I just ask if we have established that when eddying out
The boat is on an edge of some sort approaching the eddy line - then is flat as it crosses the eddy line - then is on some degree of edge again when in the eddy?
It depends where you approach from, a lot of approach vectors work well with the boat flat on approach, some need a carve, some need an opposite carve.

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Re: First thing you coach on WW

Post by DaveBland » Thu Dec 08, 2016 7:11 pm

Cheers Jim. There's quite a few discussions going on and inter-relating in this thread.

My discussion specifically was concerning breaking in and out and I felt that the majority of the time an edge was engaged during the process. Others felt that it was something that was often done flat.
I responded with the fact that I thought it was about transitioning between edge and flat and edge as you cross the eddy line. Normally.

To which I was rather surprised to hear this was old school thinking.

For me, I've been paddling long enough on all types of water that I never even think about any of it – it just happens and gets me where I want to go. So all of my comments have been from a thinking and analyzing what I do after the event.

I'll carry on paddling enjoying using my edges 95% of the time and let the young guns paddle with their hulls flat...
dave

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Re: First thing you coach on WW

Post by TechnoEngineer » Thu Dec 08, 2016 7:15 pm

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1aq2zp5nx731z ... C.MP4?dl=0

momentum. angle, acceleration, reverse sweep bollocks yada yada
FFS you're all missing the point of the video. It's the only video taken of me that day, but throughout the whole day, the boat kept spinning around its stern, because I had too much weight in it, which made it misbehave in all scenarios when coming down the Upper T.

The whole point was to demonstrate that if a beginner has his kayak badly trimmed, then he is going to have a nightmare on the river. So ensuring that the trim is set correctly, and that the paddler understands this, is to me something important that needs to be brought attention to the paddler. I didn't fully appreciate this until I did 3 Star Open Canoe.
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Re: First thing you coach on WW

Post by TechnoEngineer » Thu Dec 08, 2016 8:12 pm

* (that comment is not directed at any particular person)
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Re: First thing you coach on WW

Post by Simon Westgarth » Thu Dec 08, 2016 10:16 pm

TechnoEngineer wrote:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1aq2zp5nx731z ... C.MP4?dl=0

momentum. angle, acceleration, reverse sweep bollocks yada yada
FFS you're all missing the point of the video. It's the only video taken of me that day, but throughout the whole day, the boat kept spinning around its stern, because I had too much weight in it, which made it misbehave in all scenarios when coming down the Upper T.

The whole point was to demonstrate that if a beginner has his kayak badly trimmed, then he is going to have a nightmare on the river. So ensuring that the trim is set correctly, and that the paddler understands this, is to me something important that needs to be brought attention to the paddler. I didn't fully appreciate this until I did 3 Star Open Canoe.
You only offered 8 secs of video from this day on the river, so too be grumpy that we made an observation from a tiny dataset whilst your impression of your whole day is vastly different is quite unfair. Note by having effectively moved your point of rotation back and in the case of the video, not using effective tactics, the boat is going to be at times hard to manage.

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Re: First thing you coach on WW

Post by TechnoEngineer » Fri Dec 09, 2016 1:15 am

For sure, Simon. I think the issue is that the video was posted with a context but was then commented on outside of that context.
Simon Westgarth wrote:The use of the sweep come stern rudder come support outrigger stroke, may suggest they feel support is needed in their turning. Especially with the forward scull action used as the clip ends
The SuperHero doesn't have much of a chine (just a little bit under the knees) and I picked up from an EJ video the idea of using a hanging draw to compensate for the lack of carving. I would move the blade fore or aft as necessary to alter the turning. Although in the video it's really lazy and non-committing, and coupled with the slow forward paddling cadence, probably accounts for how often I've skidded sideways in eddies.
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Re: First thing you coach on WW

Post by Simon Westgarth » Fri Dec 09, 2016 8:11 am

TechnoEngineer wrote:The SuperHero doesn't have much of a chine (just a little bit under the knees) and I picked up from an EJ video the idea of using a hanging draw to compensate for the lack of carving. I would move the blade fore or aft as necessary to alter the turning. Although in the video it's really lazy and non-committing, and coupled with the slow forward paddling cadence, probably accounts for how often I've skidded sideways in eddies.
Edges on a kayak will certainly offer a snappier and more precise carve, yet its the general plan and profile shape of the kayak, once up on its side creates the turn. My Nomad, turns just fine, certainly carves a nice dynamic arc too and the general consensus is that, that boat has no edges.

If you wish to use a hanging draw, the kayak needs some forward momentum. Although using such a technique on the up river side of the kayak whilst heading down a rapid with little directional speed, would probably not be offered up as a demo by EJ on any video. The use of a stern squeeze to kill any spin momentum is a good option whilst initiating momentum in a new direction, although in the video the paddler used a reverse stroke to kill spin momentum and some sweep strokes whilst edging their boat towards the active blade. Little lateral momentum was built in the rapid as a result.

Posting footage for consideration, can be tough. My main advice would be, more tactics less technique.

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Re: First thing you coach on WW

Post by SimonMW » Fri Dec 09, 2016 8:50 am

Not a coaching strategy I have seen very often. Perhaps it could do with a new catchy term like condescentionism.
Good job I'm not a coach then! But good to see that the points are being made well by others now. My frustration came from the fact that he was making light of the words that were spoken rather than seeing what was being demonstrated right in front of him. How can anybody learn if they are going to shut off any new concepts just because it isn't what they were taught originally or what they currently do? Particularly if those concepts can actually be physically demonstrated to be effective. Personally I love to be shown new ways, and if they work better than what I have done before, then great. I want to be learning new things right into old age, if I make it that far.

When I was taught a lot of this by Simon W it blew my mind. I also know of some high level coaches who were doing things differently until they went with him, when their minds were blown too. I say this, not to be psychophantic, but to illustrate that dogma can be quite deep in our sport, and it effects people of all experience levels.

It is a complex subject. Hydrodynamics must be one of the most complicated science subjects around. But at a very basic level, if people who disagree really looked at the base forces at work at a simple level, they would understand why these concepts work in actuality. It's just that I will admit that I have a very short fuse with people who won't even entertain or test an idea for themselves simply because dogma. Particularly when many of these methods, as Simon also pointed out, are often used by our top athletes in sports like white water slalom. Watch someone cross a strong, powerful eddy line to get to an up stream gate that is buried deep within a large eddy for instance. Or my previous example of crossing a mid river eddy to get to a gate. But yet with some people it falls on deaf ears, hence my comment.

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Re: First thing you coach on WW

Post by scottdog007 » Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:11 am

This 'TEACH AND LEARN TACTICS BEFORE LEARNING TECHNIQUE'. I'm trying to get my head around this.

Part of the coaching tool TTPP. Technical, tactical, physical, psychological. Sure there are too many coaches out there that have learnt all the techniques in a swimming pool, but are clueless as to how to use them in the real white water world. Man I have had loads of hazels with L2 coaches who love to hear their own voices telling students what to do on the canal and having no idea why they need to do the technique.

'Tactical' for me is knowing when to use these techniques. Like breaking out of the flow and into an eddy and putting some edge on. No no no I didn't mean edge, sorry......

But basically I would have thought Tactical and Technical should go hand in hand and really should be taught at the same time. I see it must be hard to plan tactics, say crossing a grade 2 rapid if you do not know what paddle strokes you need to use (technique).

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