Do you keep filming?

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morsey
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Do you keep filming?

Post by morsey » Sun Aug 07, 2016 2:07 pm

Bad language on this, not really safe for work/family, sorry about that.






Some points:
My throwline was already open and ready to pick up right next to where I was standing.
Directives were to get my friend to move fast, I had the camera held firm but was looking around.
The camera turns away because I moved to hold onto my friend who threw the line.
You can't quite see but the rope made it straight to the swimmer, the shouts are for the swimmer to try and grab the boat, which was written off in the first impact.

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Re: Do you keep filming?

Post by jsymonds » Mon Aug 08, 2016 9:14 am

You should get one of those cameras that sticks to your head, I bet paddling with that in your hand all day was a nightmare!

I would question if a paddler who capsizes from a simple seal launch (or on an eddy line) a few metres above the first drop should be on the Mellte at those levels though (or at all...), I know we all have our 'moments' but I don't think grade 4+ is the right environment to just have a crack and see how you get on, its seems far more common now that paddlers are getting onto harder rivers beyond their ability which then puts themselves and their team at risk.

The rescue was slick enough considering the circumstances, it worked so wont bother debating possible changes/tweaks or 'what ifs' :)

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Re: Do you keep filming?

Post by morsey » Mon Aug 08, 2016 2:00 pm

Simple seal launch?

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Re: Do you keep filming?

Post by jsymonds » Mon Aug 08, 2016 2:15 pm

morsey wrote:Simple seal launch?
Its a 1m slide in from a slightly unbalanced position, I wouldn't describe it as hard or complication and I certainly wouldn't expect it to cause any issues for paddlers capable of paddling solid grade 4 river in good flows...

You could argue that if someone is likely to make that error and capsize above the drop they should be given help/support rather than being left alone, or you could argue once again that they shouldn't be on the river, that seems quite simple to me :)

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Re: Do you keep filming?

Post by morsey » Mon Aug 08, 2016 2:57 pm

It's not really a simple seal launch and the complications are clear for all to see, it has a fall directly below it.

It's a class four level entry with a class four level maneuver and a fall that requires holding a boof. None of which is simple and all of which have cumulative effect.

If it was simple most people would get on and go, they, I imagine yourself included, generally check a look at the drop and check a look at the lead in before getting on the water.

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Re: Do you keep filming?

Post by Jim » Mon Aug 08, 2016 3:32 pm

Everyone screws up once in a while, no need for that level of inference!

Just 3 of you? Stop filming.
BIg team and completely not needed for the rescue, carry on filming.

Waste time switching the camera off or trying to put it down safely, nah, not if you can provide the necessary support without putting the camera down.

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Re: Do you keep filming?

Post by DaveBland » Mon Aug 08, 2016 3:51 pm

Who hasn't flipped after a slide in? Easily done. If there's any criticism to be levelled, it's not rolling up at either attempt. But then who's never missed a roll in a 'must make' place?
Glad he's okay, and... of course keep filming! How else can the rest of the World participate in vicarious beater enjoyment?
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Re: Do you keep filming?

Post by jsymonds » Mon Aug 08, 2016 3:53 pm

morsey wrote:It's not really a simple seal launch and the complications are clear for all to see, it has a fall directly below it.

It's a class four level entry with a class four level maneuver and a fall that requires holding a boof. None of which is simple and all of which have cumulative effect.

If it was simple most people would get on and go, they, I imagine yourself included, generally check a look at the drop and check a look at the lead in before getting on the water.
Think there is a bit of confusion here morsey, it is the actual seal launch that is simple and i personally don't believe any paddler getting on the Mellte at those levels should be capsizing above the entry drop...that fact that this happened is what has made me raise the point whether the paddler in the video should be on the river putting themselves and others at risk, it would be a different debate completely if they missed a boof stroke/landed awkwardly/popped a shoulder/etc. and swam beneath the grade 4 drop.

I understand that you probably know the person in the video and feel a need to defend them but in my mind they are out of their depth, this happens all the time as there are mixed abilities in most groups, the hope is that those not ready to paddle certain rivers don't continually expose themselves to environments beyond their capabilities, if this happens enough then potentially avoidable accidents happen (as your video proves) and will continue to happen, fortunately nobody was seriously injured here.

I do actually think the drop itself is also straight forward though and looks far worse than it actually is, it is an auto-boof that kicks you out of the pile at the bottom, all you have to do is go over the middle facing downstream (ideally the right way up...) :)

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Re: Do you keep filming?

Post by jsymonds » Mon Aug 08, 2016 4:03 pm

DaveBland wrote:Who hasn't flipped after a slide in? Easily done. If there's any criticism to be levelled, it's not rolling up at either attempt. But then who's never missed a roll in a 'must make' place?
Glad he's okay, and... of course keep filming! How else can the rest of the World participate in vicarious beater enjoyment?
I flipped plenty of times after sliding in when first i started paddling 15+ years ago Dave but not once after i began paddling grade 4 rivers...

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Re: Do you keep filming?

Post by DaveBland » Mon Aug 08, 2016 8:37 pm

…then you ain't trying hard enough :)

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Re: Do you keep filming?

Post by jsymonds » Mon Aug 08, 2016 8:54 pm

DaveBland wrote:…then you ain't trying hard enough :)

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Looks like the paddler has dropped their boat! Nice looking section though :)

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Re: Do you keep filming?

Post by morsey » Mon Aug 08, 2016 10:46 pm

jsymonds wrote:feel a need to defend them

I do actually think the drop itself is also straight forward though and looks far worse than it actually is, it is an auto-boof that kicks you out of the pile at the bottom, all you have to do is go over the middle facing downstream (ideally the right way up...) :)
I wasn't defending anyone, I was questioning your claim that it's simple. If it's simple then there is no concern for anyone to go down there! You are essentially arguing both ways!

It's easy but not everyone should be allowed to do it, suggests it's not easy.

People can see exactly how easy or difficult the launch is here:




The focus on the first video for me is the speed of response. I would have been happier with the rope hitting the swimmer as they surfaced, I called twice for it to be thrown. No biggy in that situation, but it meant the boat went down river which caused complications. The response has to be when you see things start to go wrong, you can't wait for the person to be out of the boat before you do something about it. That's my thoughts.

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Re: Do you keep filming?

Post by Jim » Tue Aug 09, 2016 12:23 am

I don't know the skill of your mate with the throwline, but in a critical situation if the swimmer is getting closer it may be worth delaying the throw to increase your accuracy - hard to tell, but it looks like he got the line away whilst the swimmer was still upstream of the thrower so maybe he was right not rush it?

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Re: Do you keep filming?

Post by MikeVeal » Tue Aug 09, 2016 7:51 am

How badly damaged was the boat? Need the gory pictures.
Glad your mate was OK, looks like if he'd gone over the top a few feet to one side, his body would have hit that rock half way down rather than his boat. Could have been a lot nastier.

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Re: Do you keep filming?

Post by jsymonds » Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:42 am

morsey wrote:
jsymonds wrote:feel a need to defend them

I do actually think the drop itself is also straight forward though and looks far worse than it actually is, it is an auto-boof that kicks you out of the pile at the bottom, all you have to do is go over the middle facing downstream (ideally the right way up...) :)
I wasn't defending anyone, I was questioning your claim that it's simple. If it's simple then there is no concern for anyone to go down there! You are essentially arguing both ways!

It's easy but not everyone should be allowed to do it, suggests it's not easy.

People can see exactly how easy or difficult the launch is here:
The point I am making, and have been trying to convey in my previous posts (obviously not very well...) is that both the seal launch and drop are both simple if you are capable of paddling the river in question, if you are not capable of doing the seal launch then you should question whether you should be on the river. The seal launch and drop are simple for those capable of paddling the river (its actually one of the most straight forwards lines on the Mellte), but the level of simplicity is relevant to the ability levels of the individual paddlers, i never said it was simple so anyone can have a go.

There is a link between difficulty and ability, skilled paddlers who can paddle the appropriate grade will find it simple, lesser skilled paddlers will struggle and likely risk endangering themselves and others.

The 4 minute video of someone carrying a boat has for me just confirmed what i originally said, it should be an easy seal launch and line for someone who decides to get on a grade 4 river in good flows, if it looks too tricky then you should question whether you are capable of paddling the river without putting yourself and others at unnecessary risk.

Hope that clarifies my standpoint :)

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Re: Do you keep filming?

Post by Jim » Tue Aug 09, 2016 11:11 am

FFS, very occasionally I capsize seal launching less than 1 foot from the flat concrete sides of an artificial white water course, and now I find out that this indicates that I'm not fit to paddle grade 4?
So all those times I've hit perfect lines on grade 5 counts for nothing because sometimes, just sometimes, I fall in on something very easy.

I think I'll make my own decisions when to run and when to portage rather than using jsymonds' guidelines, I'd have had to stop boating years ago.

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Re: Do you keep filming?

Post by Mike79 » Tue Aug 09, 2016 1:37 pm

Seems a bit unfair to make judgments about the paddler based only on that video as there's no real way of knowing what happened and it might well have been some kind of freak outcome. Maybe the guy slipped into the water whilst he was putting his deck on - or maybe he's a complete ninja who just had a bit of a brain fart. Of course it's also possible that he was overreaching himself but there's no reason to jump to conclusions and since Morsey was there and well placed to tell us that could have been a question rather than an accusation.

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Re: Do you keep filming?

Post by jsymonds » Tue Aug 09, 2016 3:29 pm

Jim wrote:FFS, very occasionally I capsize seal launching less than 1 foot from the flat concrete sides of an artificial white water course, and now I find out that this indicates that I'm not fit to paddle grade 4?
So all those times I've hit perfect lines on grade 5 counts for nothing because sometimes, just sometimes, I fall in on something very easy.

I think I'll make my own decisions when to run and when to portage rather than using jsymonds' guidelines, I'd have had to stop boating years ago.
It is an opinion that i am entitled to Jim, not a guideline, you feel free to do whatever you want :)

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Re: Do you keep filming?

Post by Chalky723 » Tue Aug 09, 2016 3:34 pm

Best hang that fleet of boats up now then Jim, or book some coaching ;-)

D
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Re: Do you keep filming?

Post by jsymonds » Tue Aug 09, 2016 3:37 pm

Chalky723 wrote:Best hang that fleet of boats up now then Jim, or book some coaching ;-)

D
More than happy to recommend some L5 seal launch coaches :)

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Re: Do you keep filming?

Post by morsey » Tue Aug 09, 2016 4:18 pm

Still on the tangent!

The person in the video messed up, people do. Not the first river of the day, nothing to suggest that was likely. I've seen worse on that drop, can't guarantee no mistakes in canoeing. I noticed a specific shift from using loose simple terminology to using precise phrase. Jim mentioned flips on entry and rolls, the assertion came back only about flips on entry. I was a little saddened that there was no claim to fifteen years of no rolls!


The drop doesn't run so straight at medium levels and higher (The walk in video is low), the water pushes left. When it is high you run more left, when it is superhigh you run far left off the radial that generates off the cliff on the left (running close enough to touch the cliff with your paddlers) and going over what you know is normally a very shallow landing, or you take the hero line right off the top of the tongue (it's sketchy, I've seen people dragged backwards off the right line).
This shows the entry at medium levels: We are all agreed, it's a class four put on, above a drop on a class four river, with drops. ;-)


Jim I take your point about waiting till the person is closer to get a higher success rate. Maybe, I'm not sure, I wasn't going to wait and find out and was prompting the line to be dispatched sooner.


I like Dave's fall, that looks good and tricky to inspect and run.

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Re: Do you keep filming?

Post by DaveBland » Tue Aug 09, 2016 5:56 pm

Like most, I am uncomfortable making a judgement on someone's fitness to be on a river based on one clip, but jsymmonds does have a point that at that particular time and place, the paddler may have been wiser to skip it. [Based on the fact that he did mess up the get in and then failed to roll quickly, then failed to roll again and bailed]. But that does not mean he's an unfit paddler for the river. Blimey, there have been so many runs that I've had bad days on, that I have run many times before and after. Actually the drop of my seal launch pic – I have run that half a dozen times at least. I have photos of me boofing the hell out of it and there's a vid of me totally missing my line and swimming too. Based on watching the vid of my swim alone, I'd say I wasn't up to paddling it – it really is awful. And that was down to me actually being over confident and a lazy stroke on the lip.

Similarly, for the rope deployment, who knows, unless you were there, whether leaving it or throwing early was a deliberate or right or wrong call? It worked so all good.

However my issue is that if you are going to set up safety, then get it set up and be ready. Just having a bag nearby somewhere in case, and standing around watching, isn't safety. it's spectating.

Make a plan, spot the likely eventualities, the safest extraction points, secure footholds etc and be ready and watching. How many times do you hear someone having to shout "get the rope" in vids? …this is not acceptable in my book.

But sure keep filming too.
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Re: Do you keep filming?

Post by StoneWeasel » Wed Aug 10, 2016 6:30 pm

Personally I think that anybody that judges others on the internet in the way that jsymonds does, is clearly not a paddler good enough to take on anything harder than Grade 2.

I have made this assessment based on the wealth of evidence available in this post and I think it would be massively reckless of them to get on any river above a gently flowing stream as it is clearly endangering those that they would be paddling with.

I am an amazing paddler and clearly, am easily able to judge this and anyone that disagrees me is clearly wrong.

I mean, this is just like my opinion man, but if you disagree with it then you are wrong.


Now where has Wavecloud gone, I'm feeling argumentative ;P

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Re: Do you keep filming?

Post by buck197 » Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:08 pm

You tinker Denzil and I thought I was the most amazing paddler and not nice to be told I'm only the second most amazing.
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Re: Do you keep filming?

Post by Chalky723 » Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:32 pm

StoneWeasel wrote:Personally I think that anybody that judges others on the internet in the way that jsymonds does, is clearly not a paddler good enough to take on anything harder than Grade 2.

Now Now, how on earth can you reach that conclusion without a 30 second video to base your evidence on?

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Re: Do you keep filming?

Post by morsey » Wed Aug 10, 2016 11:13 pm

DaveBland wrote:However my issue is that if you are going to set up safety, then get it set up and be ready. Just having a bag nearby somewhere in case, and standing around watching, isn't safety. it's spectating.

Make a plan, spot the likely eventualities, the safest extraction points, secure footholds etc and be ready and watching. How many times do you hear someone having to shout "get the rope" in vids? …this is not acceptable in my book.

But sure keep filming too.
All of that, agree with.

If the first person had swum I'd have put the camera down, rope would have been in hand (My rope was already open, small amount of rope released and ready to pick up and throw). The other paddler actually flipped on the second smaller drop, I wasn't concerned they were going to swim, carried on filming and shouted "Up, up, Up!" If the paddlers had swapped and they had the same events I would have expected the same outcome. I.e. take a drop like that upside down, expect the person to come out of their boat and react. And, if either of them had capsized on the second drop I'd have expected them both to roll up.

The throwline was in hand of the person on safety, they weren't scurrying around. I agree that is just ridiculous to be on safety and not be ready. My directives were simply to not let the situation slip. You can tell when people are going to hesitate, even people you know have purposely dealt with rescues before. Have seen it on easier sections, it's something I consciously try to focus on at the start of rivers: React fast to situations that affect you and react fast to situations that affect others. I'm sure that is the same as Dave is saying and what most people strive for.

There have been videos bouncing around recently of people not reacting very fast, and making simple errors, like not getting the line out ready when it's obvious it'll be needed straight away, that's why I've put up some videos with rescues, not to chastise the paddler for making a mistake. The video is over five years old, long enough that whatever debrief/hindsight to be taken has been taken. Is okay for people to draw conclusions, and give opinion, but to focus in on a person who capsizes and suggest it wasn't wise is stating the obvious in the extreme! As mentioned, it wasn't the first river of day, if you know the area you'll know there isn't really anything close less than class four, so it's not like there wasn't an option to assess peoples paddling, some others opted not to come and went for a drink instead.

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Re: Do you keep filming?

Post by DaveBland » Thu Aug 11, 2016 1:42 am

..wasn't specifically criticizing this one – just, as you say there have been many vids [one recent one from here that made my blood boil – paddler only got out due to superhuman solo effort] where 'safety' was not set up and ready. I'm probably more sensitive to it as I am such a bad swimmer and kinda hope that anyone running safety for me will be on the ball.
I'll see if I can locate the vid...
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Re: Do you keep filming?

Post by P00nslayer » Thu Aug 11, 2016 9:34 pm

Come on guys leave him alone, he's saying the guy doesn't seem like a grade 4 paddler on the basis he screwed up a couple of things that would be simple to a guy of that ability. Yes it could be down to a bad day but if paddlers over estimate their ability then it puts themselves in danger and also the team rescuing them. Think he makes a good point personally. However if you don't try harder things you'll never know what ability you are! Don't think you should hate on what he says though.

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Re: Do you keep filming?

Post by Chalky723 » Fri Aug 12, 2016 8:15 am

I think the most valid point is that his paddling buddies know what grades he's capable of paddling because they actually paddle with him.

The opinion of armchair critics based on a shaky video of 1 swim shouldn't change that - although they're entitled to their views.

D
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Re: Do you keep filming?

Post by sundaykayaker » Fri Aug 12, 2016 1:05 pm

I know there is not much water about. And can understand why the posts have gone at tangent.

So back to the question. Do you keep filming is...
YES! Just so that you post it on UKRGB and show what tits your mates are.... who you have probably been paddling with for a decade or two.
Yes keep filming until battery run-out. Or SD card is full.

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