Bl**dy Rolling

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:21 pm

That works fine, mostly I run out of arm. Most 12 year olds are taller than me. Although that doesn't explain much as they can roll fine.
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Kirsten » Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:19 pm

Just an idea: have you ever tried a Pawlata roll? meaning that you back hand is holding onto the blade. This gives you are bigger lever, but also forcing you to keep you back elbow tucked in and the hand close to the body/hips, you have to sweep with the front arm, at the same time, no bother about hull contact as you have the blade in your hand.

A Pawlata roll is my backup roll, when I'm very tired or messing up normal rolls for whatever reason. Works everytime, maybe it is just the fact that it takes a second to get my hand onto the blade and helps to calm and concentrate of the outcome. And yes, I did this in moving water too! Once at the bottom of a drop (Campsie lynn) and once in the middle of a rapid (Lost the proper grip during capsize as paddle strucked rock quite hard and as I wasn't sure in which angle the blade to the water would be when doing a normal setup, I got my left hand on the blade, just needed a very quick shift in hand position as soon I was up. This secured that I will have the paddle in the correct position for the roll and also when paddling on).

Maybe this would help to develop the sweep and getting rid of the habit to extend the left hand?

Kids and rolling: they don't think and have no fear, they just do it. It's not fair, I know. Same for people who watching a few YouTube videos and stating then during a trip their want to give it a try and it works. That's really annoying.

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:51 pm

Tried Pawlata, you'd be amazed just how badly it can go although a couple managed to end upright with the paddle on the bottom of the pool.



Probably a more normal set of rolls for me :( and yes I was trying to sweep! Luckily you can't quite see the signature letting go of the paddle move at the end.
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by TechnoEngineer » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:05 am

gp.girl wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:51 pm
Take a look here - the image on the left was when you used the float, and one on the right the second roll.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/dnuy7beabk9n6tj/TopHand.png

On the left, your elbow is tucked into the body, and the top hand is against the deck. Not as ideal as it being tucked into the shoulder, but not bad.

On the right, the elbow is extended away from the body, almost fully extended, and the top hand is such that you make the blade totally dive.
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Chalky723 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:36 am

You need to focus on getting that right hand blade out of the water & tucking your left arm in - as Jason says, in the second roll you pretty much push the blade deep because your left arm is straight.

Also - you went straight into "Aaargh, rescue me" mode - you could have had another 2 or 3 attempts at rolling there. Very often, after a rushed first attempt, the second roll is the one that gets you up.

I think you're still scared of being upside down which makes you rush everything - you need to get more confident that being upside down is just a phase on the way to getting back upright rather than the end of the manoeuvre....

D
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by TechnoEngineer » Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:57 am

Yes there's definitely head game going on here; if you have access to smaller paddle floats, or the use of a partially inflated inflatable one, then you can wean yourself off it. I used that kind of arrangement when working on forward-finishing Greenland rolls.

Your roll is fine when you're using the paddle float; it's worth bearing in mind that really bad technique with a paddle float won't get you up, so you're not getting up with the paddle float simply from using the paddle float in itself.

Do BMW make kayaks? :P
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Franky » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:15 pm

TechnoEngineer wrote:
Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:05 am
On the right, the elbow is extended away from the body, almost fully extended, and the top hand is such that you make the blade totally dive.
I studied the video for a while and agree this is the main problem.

I'd go on to suggest that she starts the roll with her left hand right next to her ear - i.e. sets up with the whole paddle further forward, and her right arm extended as far as it will go.

I know this goes against what TE said earlier about keeping the paddle back, but I *think* this is how I start a roll, and all I can say is it works for me.

In spite of it, she's nearly getting up. I think that extra leverage from keeping her left hand by her shoulder is what will swing it.

She doesn't look like she's in "rescue me" mode to me - one thing she's doing right is taking her time.

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Chalky723 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:02 pm

Franky wrote:
Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:15 pm
She doesn't look like she's in "rescue me" mode to me - one thing she's doing right is taking her time.
I was referring to the end of the second roll on the video - a rushed attempt & then arms up looking for the T Rescue straight away, no second or third go...

It's headology all the way really, she knows she can roll....

D
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:32 pm

Can easily sort a couple of smaller floats. Head wise I'm fine at the beginning, rolling isn't the positive it should be mostly because falling back or just not getting anywhere in is pretty horrible (not sure which is worse) and I do that a lot. With the float I know I will almost certainly come up so it's different. I still need to stop myself pulling the deck on autopilot and get on with the rescue. The waiting is a killer once the boat has bumped into me I'm fine! Second try wise I'm really not good at that one ;) I know I have time, not so sure its going to be worth it. Did manage it at the last pool by trying my offside 'roll' (if I got up it's all good). Oddly had no trouble at all going from setup to falling back in back to set up and roll.

C2C rolling came up again and I might give it a try not putting any pressure on the blade when sweeping. Will try bringing the left hand down too.
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Chalky723 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:00 pm

gp.girl wrote:
Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:32 pm
I still need to stop myself pulling the deck on autopilot and get on with the rescue. The waiting is a killer once the boat has bumped into me I'm fine!
Stop thinking about the rescue - you should be thinking about the roll - if the first one doesn't work, take your time for the next one, good set up & position & go for it! If that does't work go for another.

You've still got another 6 minutes of oxygen before your brain will die, so there's no rush to get out....

D
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by TechnoEngineer » Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:11 pm

gp.girl wrote:
Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:32 pm
With the float I know I will almost certainly come up
QED. The crack is to mentally tell yourself that you're going to succeed, as if the float is there when it isn't. A bit like when I went through the phase of telling myself that I was in the pool when I wasn't. When coaching rolling, one of the key actions is to not tell the student that you're going to let go of the paddle, when you feel the time is right you just do it, and they gain confidence from having been unassisted without expecting failure for no longer being supported.

Also, when you're Eskimo rescuing, use it as an opportunity to practise your hip motion, although I don't think that's where your main issue is.
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by kayak_girl » Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:44 pm

Hi Sarah

Personally I think its a height thing. I'm 5'1 and cant roll, it feels like my arms are too short to sweep the paddle.

I got really frustrated after years of trying and *nearly* succeeding and coaches/friends/fellow paddlers telling me to keep practicing and stay positive. About 7 years ago I gave up learning how to roll and I just paddle. I have paddled grade 3/4 when I had something to prove to myself, now I tend to do grade 2/3 and try to make it look good :). A great paddler doesnt need to roll!

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Franky » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:54 pm

Chalky723 wrote:
Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:00 pm
Stop thinking about the rescue - you should be thinking about the roll - if the first one doesn't work, take your time for the next one, good set up & position & go for it! If that does't work go for another.
Quite so. What you need to do is adopt the same mentality as when you're doing anything challenging in paddling: be assertive when your first instinct is to be defensive. Take action, and the physical effort of the action won't leave room for apprehension.

Incidentally, before I could roll, I hated t-rescues - the uncertainty about how soon the rescuer would reach me, which side of the boat they'd be on, whether they'd hit me in the right spot, and whether they'd offer a reliable surface to pull against. With rolling, you're in control.
kayak_girl wrote:
Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:44 pm
Personally I think its a height thing. I'm 5'1 and cant roll, it feels like my arms are too short to sweep the paddle.
Not being a coach, I'm in no position really to say, but I think it should be possible to adapt your technique for your height. It's the length of your paddle that counts, not the length of your arm span. I'm not saying having a wide arm span doesn't help - I have monkey arms in proportion to my height - but if you've short arms, you should be able to compensate by moving your extended hand further down the paddle, rather than trying to keep your grasp symmetrical. I've seen people do successful Pawlata rolls on grade 4, and if that's what works for you, I say do it every time. The sole purpose of a roll is to avoid a swim, and the only measure of style is the success rate.

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by LucyLou19 » Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:10 pm

Hey, you need to cock your front wrist and keep that back elbow tucked in. That and on the first roll, you need to focus on unstacking your spine, so your head is coming up after your body.

Have you tried learning the backdeck roll, at this point your muscle memory is so ingrained in poor rolls you may be better off learning a new roll alltogether.

Being short is no excuse- i am vertically challenged too!

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:02 pm

LucyLou19 wrote:
Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:10 pm
Hey, you need to cock your front wrist and keep that back elbow tucked in. That and on the first roll, you need to focus on unstacking your spine, so your head is coming up after your body.

Have you tried learning the backdeck roll, at this point your muscle memory is so ingrained in poor rolls you may be better off learning a new roll alltogether.

Being short is no excuse- i am vertically challenged too!
The backdeck roll looks horrible. Did look at trying to learn an offside roll as I have little muscle memory of that! Dodgy back makes stacking the spine a challenge plus I have a lot of muscle memory to overcome on that too. I know being short isn't really the problem it just seems to make setting up hard as it is very difficult to get the paddle in the right place. Anyway may be back out tomorrow and in theory plenty of chances next week. Taking lots of floats and a camera and switching back to the GTS as it's easier to roll. Might even have a go at a second try while holding my breath obviously!
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Kirsten » Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:22 pm

just by centimeters I'm not real vertical with 5'4" (and my arm span is an inch more), but taken my weight in account I'm far too short. I just watch footage from Thursdays pool session, camera was on the front of my boat. My setup is rubbish, I'm barely leaning over and not even where a BA, and the paddle is not clear out of the water, though my roll is reliable enough to have me not seen swimming since a year, despite several capsizes.

But the muscle memory and the awareness of what went wrong, should the first attempt not working, is now in the way to learn an offside roll or for some reason I have to switch for a C2C/Frontdeck roll as I start to rotate my upper body forward instead of going back as I do for my right hand roll. I startet of with floats to get a feeling for the correct side, no paddle floats but kickboards as I needed to get my kneedrive/hipflick sorted first.

What kind of floats you are using? Paddlefloats or some to hold in your hands? As in some scene of your last footage it looks whether you getting your head up far to early and so you went in again. Floats in the hand could help to gain some confidence and body awareness regards boat control just using your body instead of a paddle.

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:46 pm

Floats are just foam gaffer taped together. Got large and a small, making a medium. The last roll was just bad, so I stopped. There were a few in between but the camera guy got distracted. Rarely had a failure with a float in both hands but no luck with holding it in one hand. Awareness wise, I would have sworn I was sweeping and the left hand stayed still on all the rolls but I know from the effect and video I'm not.
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Franky » Sun Aug 06, 2017 1:04 pm

gp.girl wrote:
Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:02 pm
The backdeck roll looks horrible.
I always thought the backdeck roll was more of a sea kayaking thing. It certainly doesn't look any easier than a standard roll. I've never tried it.
Did look at trying to learn an offside roll as I have little muscle memory of that! Dodgy back makes stacking the spine a challenge plus I have a lot of muscle memory to overcome on that too.
Your back can't be that dodgy! In the video all the flexibility is there. You just straighten your back a fraction of a second too early at the last moment. You got up fine, but with a bit of work on technique, you can get up with less effort.

Maybe it's best to to think about technicalities like curving spines, but rather what will force you to do it, i.e. keep your head watching the blade.
I know being short isn't really the problem it just seems to make setting up hard as it is very difficult to get the paddle in the right place.
Your setup looked OK to me.

To reiterate what others have said: keeping your left hand near your left shoulder should make a big difference. Keep that left elbow bent when you start the stroke.
Kirsten wrote:
Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:22 pm
But the muscle memory and the awareness of what went wrong, should the first attempt not working, is now in the way to learn an offside roll or for some reason I have to switch for a C2C/Frontdeck roll as I start to rotate my upper body forward instead of going back as I do for my right hand roll.
Likewise, my offside roll feels totally different from my onside roll. I can't tuck properly on that side and start with my paddle sticking at right angles to the boat (probably not the case, but it feels like it). I injured my left shoulder when I was younger and have never had full flexibility in it since. Maybe it's that which makes my left roll less fluent, or maybe it's because I have to cock my right wrist. I don't know.

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by DaveBland » Sun Aug 06, 2017 6:17 pm

Okay, you are getting loads of advice from folks all pretty good.
With the vid again and look at the difference in your two rolls. The front hand in the first roll with the float hardly gets wet, if at all. Then look at the second roll and you set up good but the second you start your hand goes under.

Everything you are doing is bang on except you are still pulling down not stroking across the surface.

When you are set up and calm, think about the hand and running those knuckles in an arc across the surface as you roll. Do that and it'll sort itself out.
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Kirsten » Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:57 pm

Franky wrote:
Sun Aug 06, 2017 1:04 pm
I always thought the backdeck roll was more of a sea kayaking thing. It certainly doesn't look any easier than a standard roll. I've never tried it.
Most seakayakers are doing sweep roll and a lot of Riverkayakers do the same. The only different is that a lot of seakayakers actually rest on the backdeck before righten up the upper body. Just a bad habit. In a seakayak you can do it as the boat is long enough and still quite stable when you have a lay down ;)
Though some are rushing a bit and mixing it with a C2C, whatever rolls your boat. Is a backdeck roll not anyway the roll where you actually start floating against the backdeck?

Nice to hear that you have/had also difficulties with your left hand roll, this gives me hope to nail my some time this winter. Actually both my shoulders were injured in the past, but the left is more dodgy, last year it was even painful to do the sweep although someone else was guiding the paddle and I had only a loose grip. So I'm quite happy that it seems now to behave.

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by LucyLou19 » Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:04 am

Personally as someone who has suffered Spinal Injury and also has shoulders which fall out on a regular basis, I favour a backdeck roll or C2C. Due to my left shoulder being so floppy im struggling offside at the moment.
But as a coach ive definatley had great technique teaching the backdeck "rodeo" roll to people who have muscle memory for a failed C2C or sweep roll. Additionally, as someone who tried to roll for 3 years on my "onside" and then tried offside rolling- i got offside second attempt and it became my prefered roll.

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Kirsten » Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:52 pm

What's the backdeck rodeo roll? The one starting with head on the backdeck and sweeping the paddle from back to front?

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by LucyLou19 » Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:18 pm

Yes as opposed to reverse screw which is just bad times for your shoulders; both are backdeck rolls so you differentiate by saying back deck "rodeo" roll.

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Hakase » Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:06 pm

I'm confused -- that is the reverse screw that was described. The backdeck goes all the way around the back deck, with the sweep starting at the front and finishing at the front. If you're starting laying back and sweeping your rear blade to the front, that's a reverse screw.

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:16 pm

Tonight went better. Sweeps improving - actually happening! and staying closer to the surface, most rolls ended upright. Even managed an extra brace on some of the dodgy ones rather than fall back over. Had a b\a on as it makes a big difference to the set up. Cheating a bit by coming up leaning back.
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Franky » Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:47 am

gp.girl wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:16 pm
Cheating a bit by coming up leaning back.
I'll be "cheating" until the day the rolling police knock on my door!

But honestly, if leaning back is good enough for Ken Whiting (whose video I learned from), it's good enough for me. After many hundreds of rolls, I'm probably incorrigible by now in any case.

Glad things are going well.

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by MaverickvRS » Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:37 am

One of our scout leaders took this video while on camp, which is a pretty reliable roll in the pool and still water...



Unfortunately when I visited CIWW, I swam a number of times (in both 6 and 8 cumecs) as the roll just didn't want to work. Is it the panic of moving downstream at about 200 mph or is it something wrong in my technique?

CIWW, I was in one of their boats (Dagger Nomad 8.5), not the one in the video...

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Jim » Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:47 pm

Leaning back to finish a roll is not cheating, it is a valid kind of roll which is reliable.
Remaining in the lay back position once you have rolled leaves you vulnerable to falling straight back in so best to learn to roll leaning back and then sit up immediately.
In time you will find you start sitting up before you get right up and use a forward sweep whilst sitting up - at this point you will have changed your roll to a combat roll which is even more useful on white water because you come up ready for a forward stroke and not needing half a second to sit up and get the blade forwards, but that doesn't mean a basic screw roll is wrong, just that you also need to remember to condition yourself to sit up ASAP to get the next paddle stroke on balance and not get in the habit of stopping to take a breather whilst lying back.

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Jim » Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:54 pm

MaverickvRS wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:37 am
One of our scout leaders took this video while on camp, which is a pretty reliable roll in the pool and still water...



Unfortunately when I visited CIWW, I swam a number of times (in both 6 and 8 cumecs) as the roll just didn't want to work. Is it the panic of moving downstream at about 200 mph or is it something wrong in my technique?

CIWW, I was in one of their boats (Dagger Nomad 8.5), not the one in the video...
Technique is mostly pretty good, except that you are relying on the speed of the action to get you up, it should be possible to come up more slowly under control rather than with a short stabbing stroke.

If you slow it down you will learn to feel the effect of the water on the blade and how to alter the blade angle to compensate, I suspect the reason you haven't transitioned to moving water yet is that your fast action does not give you time to feel and react to differences in the way the water affects the blade.

Also it is much easier to roll on the downstream side of the boat so it is worth practicing feeling which way that is before deciding which side to roll on, although a strong roll will work on the upstream in some situations.

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by neonbowhawk » Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:14 pm


In time you will find you start sitting up before you get right up and use a forward sweep whilst sitting up - at this point you will have changed your roll to a combat roll which is even more useful on white water because you come up ready for a forward stroke

Very well put Jim that is exactly what I have experienced. My roll just evolved without me really thinking about it from a c to c how you describe.

As to the original question I find for a reliable whitewater roll the best advice is dont rush it. Ensure you are in the correct setup position before starting. Sometimes you are better waiting a moment before attempting to roll. If you can roll on the flat you can roll for real.

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