Bl**dy Rolling

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Poke
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Poke » Tue May 09, 2017 5:31 pm

Alec wrote:Ask yourself "What are you showing off?"

My answer would be "A stroke that serves no useful purpose anywhere in paddlesport, which encourages bad posture (body position) and leaves the shoulder very open and exposed to injury"
A number of strokes serve no purpose anywhere in paddlesport. Those that come to mind are; Shudder rudder, sculling brace, crossbow rudder (in a kayak). Why do them? Well, why kayak? For fun! Additionally, practicing strokes that are beyond your normal envelope of balance whilst paddling (i.e. all of the above) all serve to increase your awareness of how your position in the boat and the movements you make affect the point at which you can no longer stay upright. Which in turn helps you become a better paddler.

As long as you have enough awareness that arm-straight-high bracing has no place on a river, you're all good.
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by sunstreaker » Wed May 10, 2017 6:33 pm

As previously mentioned two years of rolling every week in the pool 98% successful rolls, lots of confidence from that being a touring orientated, first white water experience a couple of weeks back, straight over and straight into a wet exit. Now I'm thinking I need to take the roll out of the pool, confidence slumped.


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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by TechnoEngineer » Wed May 10, 2017 6:55 pm

sunstreaker wrote:As previously mentioned two years of rolling every week in the pool 98% successful rolls, lots of confidence from that being a touring orientated, first white water experience a couple of weeks back, straight over and straight into a wet exit. Now I'm thinking I need to take the roll out of the pool, confidence slumped.
The roll in the pool will be one where you decide to capsize. The barrier here is an unexpected capsize, and you need to make yourself familiar with that pattern. The best way to do that is to do playboating, where it's almost certain that you will capsize involuntarily.
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Chalky723 » Thu May 11, 2017 9:55 am

TechnoEngineer wrote:where it's almost certain that you will capsize involuntarily.
Or any form of paddling for me..... ;-)

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by MaverickvRS » Thu May 11, 2017 12:11 pm

TechnoEngineer wrote:
sunstreaker wrote:As previously mentioned two years of rolling every week in the pool 98% successful rolls, lots of confidence from that being a touring orientated, first white water experience a couple of weeks back, straight over and straight into a wet exit. Now I'm thinking I need to take the roll out of the pool, confidence slumped.
The roll in the pool will be one where you decide to capsize. The barrier here is an unexpected capsize, and you need to make yourself familiar with that pattern. The best way to do that is to do playboating, where it's almost certain that you will capsize involuntarily.
Funnily enough I now have access to a playboat, so will be giving that an outing at some point - testing out the inadvertent capsize and recovery strokes. I'll let you know how I get on! haha

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Thu May 11, 2017 5:30 pm

Alec wrote:Ask yourself "What are you showing off?"

My answer would be "A stroke that serves no useful purpose anywhere in paddlesport, which encourages bad posture (body position) and leaves the shoulder very open and exposed to injury"
Not me showing off by doing a sculling brace :) I do the paddling forward both hands on one side of the paddle and looking behind trick!
I can roll :)

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by MaverickvRS » Fri May 12, 2017 9:47 am

gp.girl wrote:
Alec wrote:Ask yourself "What are you showing off?"

My answer would be "A stroke that serves no useful purpose anywhere in paddlesport, which encourages bad posture (body position) and leaves the shoulder very open and exposed to injury"
Not me showing off by doing a sculling brace :) I do the paddling forward both hands on one side of the paddle and looking behind trick!
Almost as good as the paddling posture advertised on the Peak UK website?

https://www.peakuk.com/image/catalog/Ca ... lley-4.jpg

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Alec » Fri May 12, 2017 10:01 am

Nothing wrong with his posture although his arm position is unorthodox - but probably not uncommon in elite slalom.

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:53 pm

Now back to the letting go of the paddle part way up as I try to roll habit. On a positive note at least I held on for the rescue instead of bailing. Totally lost any feel for rolling can't get the set up sweep or hip flick to work. Apparently it looks like I'm coming up but no sense of it for me and I definitely didn't get my head out of the water. Back to the pool at some point. The play boat is a fun paddle even if there isn't any playing going on :)
I can roll :)

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Chalky723 » Sun Jul 02, 2017 11:43 pm

I think there comes a time when you need to stop even thinking about rolling, paddle with people who are happy to help you & accept you're going to swim.

If you're constantly swimming it's not just the lack of a roll, it's the fact that you're constantly paddling on water that you can't stay upright on.

Although you can roll, you just seem to talk yourself out of it.....

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Mon Jul 03, 2017 7:07 am

Didn't do that badly on the legacy 3 hours on and five swims last hour in the playboat too. Did get asked if I'd ever try the olympic but thats only going to happen in a raft :)
I can roll :)

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Mon Jul 03, 2017 12:43 pm

Thinking of getting the gopro back into the action. As I'm not going to be playing there is a certain type of fun with shots that don't involve me being in the kayak. Just need to remind everyone to wait for the camera to be set up :) and steal OHs computer for editing....
I can roll :)

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Kirsten » Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:05 pm

how is your roll on flat water, when you are capsizing, i.e. doing full speed and then going over or asked someone for an ambush or something like canoe polo?

I think my roll is rubbish (my setup is rubbish, that's for sure!) and I can it only on one side, but as soon I'm over I go into setup. To my surprise it also happen in moving water. Last time I had to roll I capsized in a spot I didn't fancied to capsize at all as it was the top of the rapid, in the moment I was in the setup position, I startet to think "What the hell I'm doing, you will capsize as soon you are up, if you make it up at all, better get rid of the boat now as you are approaching a rock". So parts of me where doubting it will work, but my body did the movements anyway and I rolled up succesfully and stayed upright and was bobbing down the rapid (no paddling, just leaning forward as no orientiation where I was).
I had even one situation where I capsized (I was absolutely knackered) and before being fully over, my hands got in position for Pawlata roll as I was knowing that I will have only one chance and a normal roll would have been to risky. I just don't like swimming in cold water when I have a boat ;) I worked 2 winters to get my roll and since succeded I don't want to give it up.

The question is: how automatic comes your roll? Do you still have to think to go into the setup and start the rotation?


Back to the swimming pool? Not a nice pool in a river or a nice shallow loch/lake near? You can roll! You don't need the warm water of swimming pool.

How happy you are in your boat? Are you feeling confident in it or nervous? Are you really enjoying the trips you are doing or are you doing them to proof something to you and others?
Did you done a course, so that someone who is not knowing you, can watch you and help to analyse your paddling?

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:20 pm

I'd say my roll is still totally thought out except I'm still not sure how to do it. I can do a wet exit faster than almost anyone! Still at the capsizing myself set up stage getting pushed over wouldn't be a good idea. Pools, probably a cunning plan to avoid rolling until October.... lake wise I don't really get a chance to do this as i'm helping set up coach and put everything away. Never seems to be any time at the end of trips either. The last time I tried it just seemed to cause problems. As long as it doesn't involve too much swimming white water is fun, I will even manage a bit of careful playing in small waves. Would go in bigger,not big, stuff but the swim stops it being worth while. Got man up points at LV for being one of the few not wearing a cag, thoroughly beaten by the guy just wearing a BA! Paddling wise I'm OK, never going to be amazing definitely have a shed load of bad habits, crap at bracing but getting good at the I'm not sodding capsizing move. Rolling coaching wise its almost all head games. Not going to be able to learn to roll or roll until I can get that sorted. Unfortunately I've had 5 years of panic mixed with trying to learn not to. The letting go of the paddle is me panicking because I've tried to roll.
I can roll :)

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Franky » Tue Jul 04, 2017 12:04 am

Sarah, you say you don't get the chance to practise rolling on trips, but that can't be true. If your club's trips are anything like our club's, there's a good 20-30 minutes milling around before you set off down the river waiting for the shuttle drivers to return. You could practise on lunch breaks too, or when other people are stopping to surf a wave.

It sounds as though you're trying to avoid practising for fear of failure - your phrase "cunning plan to avoid rolling" is telling. It means that when you need to roll for real, you're not geared up for it, think, "This is precisely what I've been trying to avoid", and you panic.

You need to practise flat water rolling in order to roll on white water. If you avoid practising, and then chastise yourself when you swim, you're not going to progress.

As you acknowledge, you can roll and your issue is in the head: you posted a video of yourself rolling, and you said you could roll on the course you did.

Have you tried rolling in a playboat? If not, give it a try on flat water, because playboats are much easier to roll than river runners. In case you're thinking that won't help you roll a river runner, it will: the essential thing is getting the motion into your muscle memory. Once that's done, you can roll any kayak.

It sounds as though you are interested in coaching - is it partly this that is making rolling such a high-stakes issue for you?

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by MaverickvRS » Tue Jul 04, 2017 12:13 pm

When you roll in the pool do you wear BA/helmet etc? It's a different feel when you roll in the river wearing different stuff, having less freedom of movement and more resistance in the water makes a big difference!

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Kirsten » Tue Jul 04, 2017 12:16 pm

mmh, on every river trip would have time for rolling, although I most times one of the shuttle drivers, but during the trip and at the end is enough time.

There are playspots like surfwaves or fast eddy lines, where breaking out and in, is exercised. Sometimes this ends up in a capsize anyway. There can be pools or wider parts of the river, where the water is deep enough and not moving fast, perfect for a roll. For our groups it is quite usual to asked another paddler whether he/she can come closer and keep an eye on you, during rolling attempts.
Or is an eddy at the bottom of a drop/rapid big enough, then we try it there.

This don't take long, only a few seconds. It will not hold up the group.

If it is the cold water you are afraid of? Though swimming is even colder and you get proper wet.

When you say your are in coaching, where is this coaching done, only on the river or also in a basin/canal? Why you can't asked someone from the club for a half hour session after the normal training or before? Or even on another day, special session for you or organize a wet session. A wet session not only about rolling, but rescues in general, rolling being only a part of it, mix it up with balance games. We have always great fun, if on the basin we usually take a variants of boat, there are seakayak, river runners, open boats. Exercising tows, throw lines, emptying boats, peer rescues, self rescues (getting back in the boat climbing, but also rolls)

That's why you have a club and peers, they are there to help you. It is not being selfish, when you help with the coaching and asking for some coaching for you.

Regards the roll and how it works, do you have really understand the roll? Some paddlers are just rolling and don't think about why it is working (especially kids). Others need to understand why and how a roll is working. You seem to be one of the later. As the penny dropped for you? Do you know why the head should come up last? Why you need to execute certain motions? Or are you just doing because you were told to do it this way?

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Tue Jul 04, 2017 2:57 pm

At the moment roll needs relearning, I can understand the idea but not do the movements successfully. Practice going to have to follow actually getting the movement back. I don't really like getting cold and that happens easily. Coaching happens on a local reservoir, quite warm at the moment and only use it if its not too windy. Water time basically only gets used for the scouts as it's be a bit tight and it is organised for them. Not getting out on other sessions where I'd have time to try some stuff but hoping school holidays will be better. Going back to basics and water confidence again but will need a bit more than a few minutes of rescues! Playspot wise can't really get to anything smaller than LV that isn't flat as a pancake.
I can roll :)

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:38 pm

Almost better to stick to a T-rescue then at least I can have a play on rivers without worrying about swimming quite so much. As that has improved a lot over the years it would be easier. Just need to remember to stay calm and wait.
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by DaveBland » Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:29 pm

I think we've covered this before.

It's all about the set up. Nothing else matters.

As soon as you go over – get into the setup position. Make sure you are really in position, paddle up and tucked ready to roll. Focus on that and nothing else.

Once you can do this every time, you are ready to roll. And you will roll.

If you can't/don't get into a good setup position every time, there's no point in even trying to roll.
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Chalky723 » Tue Jul 04, 2017 9:58 pm

DaveBland wrote:
Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:29 pm
I think we've covered this before.

It's all about the set up. Nothing else matters.

As soon as you go over – get into the setup position. Make sure you are really in position, paddle up and tucked ready to roll. Focus on that and nothing else.

Once you can do this every time, you are ready to roll. And you will roll.

If you can't/don't get into a good setup position every time, there's no point in even trying to roll.
The thread is nearly 2 years old now - I honestly think she needs to stop thinking about rolling & just get on with paddling.... There's no advice left to give, there have been pool sessions, courses etc - it all comes back to "headology".

Paddle with people that don't mind rescuing you & who will stay close for T Rescues & stop thinking about rolling would be my advice....

D
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Tue Jul 04, 2017 10:22 pm

gp.girl wrote:
Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:38 pm
Almost better to stick to a T-rescue then at least I can have a play on rivers without worrying about swimming quite so much. As that has improved a lot over the years it would be easier. Just need to remember to stay calm and wait.
Rolling

Pluses nice way to cool off on a hot day, great way to show off, useful if you fall over.

Throw water over yourself or do a t rescue, someone else will do it for you, not going to fall over on flat water anyway and don't paddle anything I don't mind swimming.

Worst bit is its just embarrassing.

Now just need something to do in pool sessions that doesn't involve capsizing!
I can roll :)

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:09 pm

Well thats just bl**dy typical. It worked perfectly on Wednesday. And yes I know I wasn't meant to be rolling I got 'scouted' ie some how it went from me providing rescues if needed to me upside down and then upright again.... panic absent and the roll worked. Well thats the embarrassing confession bit over with! Now need to work out what changed.
I can roll :)

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Franky » Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:59 pm

gp.girl wrote:
Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:09 pm
Well thats just bl**dy typical. It worked perfectly on Wednesday. And yes I know I wasn't meant to be rolling I got 'scouted' ie some how it went from me providing rescues if needed to me upside down and then upright again.... panic absent and the roll worked. Well thats the embarrassing confession bit over with! Now need to work out what changed.
Great news. Don't overthink it: the only thing that changed is that you didn't panic.

As I've said before, a way I have found to avoid the feeling of panic is to force myself to roll as soon as I get on the water. I do it every on every visit to Lee Valley, in the lake, and if possible on river trips if the water's deep enough. Flat water is fine: just that feeling of "Well that's that out of the way", and the reinforcing of the motions.

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:44 pm

Got caught again :) had a chance to try the xs rockstar for a change. Slow start, dodgy middle but ended up rolling fine. Got challenged to try a second attempt so used my lack of offside roll to get me to set up again after an unsuccessful go. Oddly worked fine remembered the set up from silly position from last year without a problem!
I can roll :)

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by PaddyW » Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:21 pm

Alec wrote:
Mon May 08, 2017 11:46 pm
Who on earth is still teaching you the skulling brace in this day and age?

Surely that stroke was consigned to history along with the slap support 20 years ago.
EJ - recently made video.



Sculling during a brace or roll keeps or gets the paddle back into correct position, (i.e. on or near surface), for bracing and rolling, rather than a pull down action that leaves the blade deep in the water at the end of the stroke and the paddler in an unstable position.

The more tools you have in your toolbox..................

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:32 pm

PaddyW wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:21 pm
The more tools you have in your toolbox..................

Can I get the hammer to work first please!? ;)
I can roll :)

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by PaddyW » Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:52 pm

gp.girl wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:32 pm
PaddyW wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:21 pm
The more tools you have in your toolbox..................

Can I get the hammer to work first please!? ;)l
You need to "nail" the "screw" roll before adding the "hammer" to your toolbox!

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Kirsten » Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:02 pm

This guy seems to never had a shoulder injury! I prefer a quick role rather then risking to have my shoulders (and rotator cuffs) out of action for several weeks. Although in quite a few of the demonstrations the boat is nearly flat, why the hell sculling then, just to rise the chance for shoulder injuries? Getting into the bad habit to rest on the back deck?

I stay with leaning forward, keep paddling and should this fail, a role.

For tools: some duct tape for my shoulders please :P

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:14 pm

PaddyW wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:52 pm
gp.girl wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:32 pm
PaddyW wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:21 pm
The more tools you have in your toolbox..................

Can I get the hammer to work first please!? ;)l
You need to "nail" the "screw" roll before adding the "hammer" to your toolbox!
As it's meant to be a sweep roll, the broom comes first. No wonder I have trouble getting this :)
I can roll :)

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