Bl**dy Rolling

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LucyLou19
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by LucyLou19 » Mon May 09, 2016 7:06 am

Dont stress about the course, you'll have a great time.

I'd focus on going paddling for a bit, developing good connectivity and good paddle dexterity.

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Mon May 09, 2016 6:24 pm

Stopped wearing my BA in the pool a while ago, guess I'll have to start doing that again. 2 bits of foam under the seat already but could tape more on top to see how it feels. Having a bit of a break as it will be a kayaking free week!

Keep expecting to be their first total failure although at least one review was starting in a similar place.
I can roll :)

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by John K » Tue May 10, 2016 8:24 am

gp.girl wrote:Keep expecting to be their first total failure although at least one review was starting in a similar place.
You've got 5 days of paddling at a fantastic centre with excellent coaches. And cake. That can only be a good thing whatever the outcome.

Just have a good time and see what happens. :D

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Tue May 10, 2016 8:14 pm

Forgot about the cake :) will have to remove some of the foam from the boat! 2 days of kayaking and canoeing with scouts and I'm getting used to the idea of not doing anything upside down.
I can roll :)

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by GaryM » Tue May 10, 2016 8:41 pm

Definitely go on the PyB rolling course.
Several years ago having paddled higher volume boats for a long time, I took the plunge and got a low volume boat, and my roll became rubbish.
Instructors at PyB were great, realised the issue straight away and redesigned my roll completely. Best thing was on the second morning we went out to play on the sea, and in the boat I had lost my roll with I was now 100% successful.
They are really good but infuriatingly they can make it look so simple.

And yes, the Pawlata roll may not look cool, but this was the one you were taught initially in the 70's, but I can vouch for it saving many potential swims even in huge water if the initial screw rolls had failed.
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Franky » Sat May 21, 2016 11:52 pm

Wondering if anyone has had the same experience as me moving from rolling on Grade 3 to Grade 4.

I'm currently doing an introductory course on the Lee Valley Olympic. I thought I had my roll almost nailed on the Legacy, but on the Olympic I probably only manage to roll properly (i.e. without going straight under again) 40% of the time.

This bothers me because (i) I understand swimming is pretty much an instant fail on the Olympic assessment and (ii) I can vouch that swimming on the Olympic is a fecking awful experience. You WILL get bruised to bits if you're flushed down the big drops.

Basically I just couldn't even get into the setup position - whichever side I tried, I couldn't get my blade out of the water.

A couple of times, my paddle actually hit the bottom of the course - something I've never experienced on the Legacy.

I rolled a couple of times but that isn't good enough if I want to take the assessment.

Not sure what kind of advice I'm asking for... Guess I'm just wondering of other people have found it so much more difficult to roll on the Olympic than on the Legacy. Maybe it's psychological, but I don't think it's just that, it genuinely seems more difficult to achieve the setup position.

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by TechnoEngineer » Sun May 22, 2016 12:47 am

I often find that it's actually easier to roll on the Olympic course than the Legacy, since there is a lot more water pressure acting on the blade, so you don't necessarily have to clear the surface; just get some purchase on the paddle and "hip flick".

That said, I remember one occasion where I rolled about a dozen times over the last 1/3 of the Olympic course; every time I came up I found myself in a position which caused me to capsize again.

Are you 100% proficient on doing high-crosses on the Legacy, Franky? It might also be worth you spending some time at Hurley, where you'd learn very quickly that once you've rolled up, there is no time to relax, and you need to be actively paddling as soon as you come up.
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Franky » Sun May 22, 2016 11:06 am

TechnoEngineer wrote:I often find that it's actually easier to roll on the Olympic course than the Legacy, since there is a lot more water pressure acting on the blade, so you don't necessarily have to clear the surface; just get some purchase on the paddle and "hip flick".

That said, I remember one occasion where I rolled about a dozen times over the last 1/3 of the Olympic course; every time I came up I found myself in a position which caused me to capsize again.

Are you 100% proficient on doing high-crosses on the Legacy, Franky?
Depends what you mean by proficient. I rarely capsize doing a high cross but I do sometimes aim too far back and get flushed downstream, ending up doing an S-turn. So 100% - no.

Why do you ask? What do high crosses have to do with rolling?

I'm currently doing a lot of practising crossing stoppers in the trough (does that have a name? A "low cross"?!) - which I'd have thought carries a greater risk of capsize than a high cross.
It might also be worth you spending some time at Hurley, where you'd learn very quickly that once you've rolled up, there is no time to relax, and you need to be actively paddling as soon as you come up.
Hurley's a bit far more me, though it would be good to practise in bigger water than the Legacy, and I can't do that on the Olympic (once the course has finished) without passing the assessment. Catch-22.

It took me a while to learn to relax when I capsized on the Legacy and take my time about rolling up. But time isn't on your side on the Olympic: if you don't get upright before being flushed down one of the 4-foot drops, some part of you will take a serious beating on the blocks, and that's not going to help you get your act together for rolling once you're through it.

On balance I think I need to dissect my roll, which has deteriorated a little even on the flat. By which I mean it always works, but it feels like harder work than it used to. Something dodgy has crept into it and I need to work out what.

(Sometimes it seems that no skill can stay static - random mutations creep in, almost as though your body gets "bored" of doing the same thing time after time and tries to find new variations which typically aren't to your advantage.)

Thanks for the suggestions TE.

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by TechnoEngineer » Mon May 23, 2016 9:56 am

Franky wrote:Depends what you mean by proficient. I rarely capsize doing a high cross but I do sometimes aim too far back and get flushed downstream, ending up doing an S-turn. So 100% - no.

Why do you ask? What do high crosses have to do with rolling?
It's about getting yourself stuck in to and comfortable with the most powerful parts of the Legacy, and performing high-crosses is a key tactical skill when using the Olympic course. You want to be driving the bow into the tongue of the drop as demonstrated in this video:
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Franky » Mon May 23, 2016 1:39 pm

TechnoEngineer wrote:
Franky wrote:Depends what you mean by proficient. I rarely capsize doing a high cross but I do sometimes aim too far back and get flushed downstream, ending up doing an S-turn. So 100% - no.

Why do you ask? What do high crosses have to do with rolling?
It's about getting yourself stuck in to and comfortable with the most powerful parts of the Legacy, and performing high-crosses is a key tactical skill when using the Olympic course. You want to be driving the bow into the tongue of the drop as demonstrated in this video:
Ha. All this time I thought a high cross was riding the crest of the wave, where the water is kind of stationary if unstable. I saw a video of someone doing that, but I don't know where I got the idea that it was a high cross.

To answer your question properly then: my high crosses aren't 100% successful but they are getting better. I don't always manage to get gracefully out of the stopper at the end, and typically end up applying too much brute force to haul myself over the eddyline (or, on a bad day, straight downstream).

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Sat Jun 11, 2016 9:20 pm

Currently feeling stressed out/useless and guilty. No rolling/bracing or rescue practice when out but feeling frustrated when not doing something active to distract me. Did play wrestle the canoe on thursday with 7 of us :) 'Hidden' all the kayaking books and banned myself from youtube etc! No idea if I'll still be able to roll by next month. Wondering if it's better to go for a pool session between now and then risk failing or just hope I got it well enough to remember.
I can roll :)

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Jim
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Jim » Sat Jun 11, 2016 10:50 pm

There is nothing to feel guilty or useless about - rolling is useful but not essential.

I have a friend who has run most of the harder rivers in the UK whose roll is so weak one can hardly call it a roll at all - if he falls in he almost always swims, but he almost never falls in.

I probably spent about 3 years all told learning to roll - my situation was probably quite different to yours, but the point is we all learn in different ways and at different speeds, so don't think that because you can't get rolling now, that you are in any way a failure, or that you never will. Everything is possible.

I think your idea to take a break and get on with paddling for a while before your course is a good idea. coming back to it from fresh with a different coach might be exactly what you need.

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Chalky723 » Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:21 pm

gp.girl wrote:Currently feeling stressed out/useless and guilty.
I'd be concerned if I felt this way about work, let alone a hobby that's meant to be fun.

Don't make it all about the rolling (for you or your friends), it's just one small facet of the hobby.

As Jim says, it's not the be all & end all - I paddle with a mate whose roll is sketchy at best & non-existent at normal - it doesn't stop him, he tends to read and paddle features better than those people that can pretty much guarantee a roll. He still swims, but it's not constant & he accepts the scrapes & bruises as part of the fun.

No-one resents having to rescue, because we all need rescuing at some stage.

I'd try very hard to not think about rolling for as long as possible & make a point of enjoying the other 95% of the hobby.......

C
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Mon Jun 13, 2016 6:55 am

Feeling better now, went to Lee Valley and after getting over most of my nerves and the swimming bit managed 3 hours with 2 swims. Rather a lot of I am not capsizing moments :) Tried going down the course as fast as possible for a laugh. Isn't helped by having to stop to avoid swimmers and rollers!
I can roll :)

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by kamran » Fri Jul 01, 2016 2:31 pm

Hello,

I'm pretty crap at rolling so maybe not the best person to be dishing out advice, but for what it's worth a technique that has worked for me in the past is as follows:

based on right handed person

assume the position - at this point lean over as much as possible and roll wrists inwards as far as you can

once your in the water take a second to compose then slowly -very slowly pull right hand down and left up

wait until paddle is in right angel 90° position and only then hipflick and try not to lift head out of water too soon.

Best of luck.

Kamran

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Fri Jul 01, 2016 11:29 pm

Rolling course starts on Monday. No idea how its going to go. Goals set as improve roll, try to roll on river, upright :) Hopefully I can still remember how!
I can roll :)

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by John K » Sat Jul 02, 2016 7:29 am

First goal should be to have fun :)

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Sat Jul 02, 2016 8:53 am

John K wrote:First goal should be to have fun :)
Changed to fun, cake, improvement, trying and upright!
I can roll :)

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by John K » Sat Jul 02, 2016 10:52 pm

That's better!

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:24 am

positive bits cake is good and theres not too much! haven't bailed once. waters not too cold :) I can roll with a paddle float. rolled without a float being pulled up the pool. rolled outside.

not so good bits only one roll with a small float or without. no feel for feather at all and revisited throwing the paddle halfway though rolling. moving in the water just not in my head. can't sleep and worried about going out tomorrow.
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by TechnoEngineer » Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:17 am

If you're not feeling the feather, then make some indexes on your paddle using some strips of plastic (e.g. plastic welding rod) and stick them down with PVC tape.

Put the indexes near both ends of the paddle, so you feel one in each hand. Also don't be afraid to put some big yellow shiny stickers on your paddle blades.
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:53 pm

Today went better tried a few skills playing with edging. Ran a small wave train a couple of times and played in it a bit. Well alright tried avoiding playing in it any more than nessesary due to being an unhappy, tense, bundle of nerves. Went back for another go after lunch, it's seriously difficult to kayak when you're like that. Actually felt relieved to try rolling! Rolled with paddle float and without :) outside. I think we are back outside tomorrow.
I can roll :)

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Sat Jul 09, 2016 10:25 pm

1 I can roll
2 See above
3 I only bailed once :)
4 Back appointment on Tuesday
5 Anyone got a small burn 3?
6 Anyone want a small burn 1?
7 Still need to work on confidence
I can roll :)

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by John K » Sun Jul 10, 2016 6:21 am

Well done! :)

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Jim
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Jim » Mon Jul 11, 2016 11:58 am

Result!

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by TheEcho » Mon Jul 11, 2016 10:10 pm

Hi gp.girl! I think we met in the bar at the end of the course - I was the woman who had just been out sea kayaking for five days and failed to do an outdoors sea kayak roll, having turned up with a dodgy flat water roll using a WW boat.

I am now convinced about the need for proper instruction and have put my name down for the next PYB Rolling Reconstruction, which is in mid August. Sadly there aren't enough people on the list yet for it to definitely run, so maybe someone else will see this thread and book? I really want to get this right!

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Tue Jul 12, 2016 10:27 pm

It's a great course. They tend to have some last minute booking so don't worry too much yet :)
I can roll :)

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by sundaykayaker » Wed Jul 13, 2016 2:06 pm

Head is the problem.
When I remember to continue to look at the paddle. Rolling is easy. When I forget. Usually when in higher grd of water. That's when the roll stalls. Because the head comes out first.

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Wed Aug 31, 2016 11:37 pm

Apart from a couple of upright moments, I still really hate rolling or at least trying to roll. Can't seem to get anywhere so back to the pool next week :( will be trying to do the exercises from the course (plan A). Not sure how I'm going to put it into practice as my spraydeck pulling habit is as bad as ever. Planned capsizes work much better now which hints I can do it, unplanned ones almost always end in a swim so this is a totally different skill?

Until I can roll I'm not even going to try so there's no way I can convince myself I can roll so I won't even try so I can't roll. Or at least something like that. If I do try a planned roll it fails most of the time so only reinforces the can't roll.

Moan over

Or as plan B just forget the whole sorry waste of time and go fall in a river!
I can roll :)

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Chalky723 » Thu Sep 01, 2016 7:48 am

Do Plan B, just get on the water & have fun!!

It'll come, or it won't - either way go for maximum enjoyment!

D
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