Bl**dy Rolling

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DaveBland
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by DaveBland » Thu Jan 14, 2016 10:03 pm

If you are fitted in your boat properly so you are not falling out or struggling to hold on* – doing the high brace thing [like at the end of my vid] really shouldn't be an issue for any paddler. As Techno says, it's about timing so you let your bod hit the water, then just do a stroke. It's all about confidence and not even thinking about it. It's just a big forward sweep stroke. No hip flick, technique or anything needed.

*If you are sloppy in there, or the boat's too big, it'll all go wrong.
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Fri Jan 15, 2016 6:13 pm

It's a GTS :) Dagger says kids/small adults ie me. Although I got called tiny in the small Burn! There's a lot of paddling in it so I certainly don't wobble around just 'let go' occassionally. You can't really get anything smaller that works in white water. Even playboats have plenty of space for me, I can get my proper boots in a Star while everyone else seem to have to take their shoes off to get in anything. Oddly the dancer is a pretty good fit and thats a 'big boat' compared to others.

It's the timing/technique/confidence (and not pulling the deck or letting go of the paddle*) bits that get me ;)

* This ones never featured on any rolling mistakes video. I just let go of the paddle part way though the roll. I've even got upright once with only one hand left on it!
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by LucyLou19 » Sat Jan 16, 2016 12:27 pm

Small burn is huge, don't worry! Not a great boat for short people! Try getting in a star for a bit- from a fellow rockstar paddler (who can also paddle a star with normal shoes on!)

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Sat Jan 16, 2016 2:45 pm

I get on really well with the burn it was mine after one ferry glide on LV. Plus its the only boat I've rolled on moving water. Rather liked the star (small rockstar felt huge) but only tried it on the flat and couldn't do anything much, bit pointless to use a boat I can't really paddle as I can capsize on a wave in anything. Planning on taking the GTS out next time for that 'volume is for sensible people' experience :) Now I may be able to do a quick swap if one fellow paddler and their star is there - it will make for good video.
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by LucyLou19 » Sat Jan 16, 2016 11:38 pm

You might find it easier to roll the star, or a 2fun type boat. I know when I was struggling to learn to roll, I first got a functional moving water roll in a playboat... and best thing is you get the must lean forward thing nailed into you...
small rockstar needs a lot of padding on the seat for me to fit it!

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Mon Feb 01, 2016 10:06 pm

Going well. A lot of upright to very few rescues. Have a new game of capsize with paddle in one hand on the spraydeck and roll up :) Can now balance with my ear in the water and almost no pressure on the blade. Gets more fun if I tip the boat over from 45 degrees and really have to brace. Checked the dates and it looks like pyb are running the bombproof roll on the right week.....
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Slartibartfast » Tue Feb 02, 2016 10:58 pm

It is never easy as you are upside down, and it takes a while for it to feel right. Took me ages to learn.

Here is one of me getting it wrong (paddle dived, I just pulled) then geting it more or less right (sweeps across the water, although it still dived a bit).

[youtube][/youtube]



(Sorry, not sure how to get the video up, maybe someone could do that please?)

That was 5 years ago, and I am still learning but I have a pretty good roll now because I did a roll or two everytime I went paddling (on purpose that is!).

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Wed Feb 03, 2016 5:41 pm

There's a video somewhere on this thread showing me trying the samething. Pool session friday bracing rolling etc as practice for the WW weekend. Need to work on getting and keeping that paddle up and snappyness :) Drysuit coming back with nice new neck seal so no more avoiding real world practice although I'm still going to avoid capsizing if I can!
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Sat Mar 05, 2016 9:15 pm

Run of staying upright going well except for getting rescued from the Tawe but I didn't swim :) Anyway roll mostly works in the pool and I seem to be booked on a PYB bombproof roll course. Unfortunately didn't get video of the one roll that finished forward. Weird feeling too. Trying to do it again resulted in the only rescues of the evening, not surprising as I have no idea what I did differently!

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by TechnoEngineer » Sun Mar 06, 2016 8:28 am

Seeing good water confidence there - taking your time, not rushing things, much better than 6 months ago. Keep an eye on lifting the head, you should be looking towards the paddle shaft at the end of the roll.
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by shanclan » Sun Mar 06, 2016 9:46 pm

Looking good.

Maybe work on the angle of your paddle from set up. Paddle blade looks a bit flat to the water or angled down, hence the diving paddle sometimes. Eg. the roll around 50 seconds in. Try rolling the wrist more to get a better angle.

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Sun Mar 06, 2016 10:15 pm

I finish looking away from the paddle if anything! Definately start looking at it but stop before I get out of the water. Some of those angles were shocking! Things to work on :)
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by DaveBland » Mon Mar 07, 2016 6:12 pm

Hey, great that you are getting up. Nice work.

Two really stand-out observations:

1. You need to get your leading paddle blade angled out, not in at set up and keep it that angle.
Freeze the vid @6 secs and you will see your blade is facing towards the boat, making the first part of your sweep more of a diving slice. If you freeze the vid @39 secs you will see you are trying to find the non-slice angle but then as you pull [40secs] you revert to an inward facing blade face again.

To help rectify this, play with cocking your wrists. If the front one is not doing it, try the back wrist, twisting the shaft to help control and hold that angle.

Or, as a totally different approach,

2. If you watch your roll really slowly, you will see you are getting up using a downward pulling motion when your paddle is pretty much 90º out from the boat, but under the water, not on the surface.
It could just be that this is the way you are best rolling. Hey, if it works, then who cares? If this is the case, then maybe think of your start-set up position as paddle wide out from the boat, and then focus on starting with your blade closer to the surface to make it easier for you. You'll need yo really twist and push your front shoulder over and tuck your back elbow in super-tight, but may be worth a go...

Good luck!
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by buck197 » Tue Mar 08, 2016 9:35 am

Just an observation in that your hands are really close to the blades, is this because the shaft is short? You don't look like you are broad shouldered and so would expect your hands further away from the blades. This would give you a little more leverage.
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by davebrads » Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:24 pm

buck197 wrote:Just an observation in that your hands are really close to the blades, is this because the shaft is short? You don't look like you are broad shouldered and so would expect your hands further away from the blades. This would give you a little more leverage.
I think you have it the wrong way around. Obviously things are a bit complicated than this but if you consider the pushing hand as being a fixed point and you are measuring the force applied by the pulling hand it is always going to be greater than the force at the blade - you don't have "leverage" in the sense that it is commonly used where the lever pivots close to the object being moved and the force is applied on the opposite side of the pivot point and much further away to give you mechanical advantage. What you've got is effectively mechanical disadvantage which you can reduce by placing the hands closer to the blade. Of course the result of this is that you get less travel on the blade, you never get something for nothing in this universe!

In terms of considering rolling though you do have a point - a longer distance between the hand and the blade will give you more purchase on the water, and also a longer sweep which gives you more time to get the boat up, it's part of the reason that the Pawlata roll is easier to execute. However I don't think you should be considering changing hand position just to help with rolling, though it might be worth looking at from a straightforward paddling point of view.
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by buck197 » Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:38 pm

Dave I'm not sure I agree with your explanation? Surely the further the blade is away from your hand will extend the lever.
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by davebrads » Tue Mar 08, 2016 3:04 pm

Take a look at Wikipedia. What we have got with a paddle is a class 3 lever, so the mechanical advantage is always less than one (that is the effort will always be greater than the resistance). The closer you move your hand (that applies the effort) to the resistance (the blade) the closer the mechanical advantage is to one. Like I said things are not that straightforward, you don't only move your arms but you move your whole body, and the position of the fulcrum will change throughout the stroke, but your hand will always be between the fulcrum and the blade so the mechanical advantage will always be less than one.

I think you are looking at it from the other point of view, you are considering the force on the paddle. The distance from the blade to the centre of mass of the paddler will increase if you extend the paddle and the force on the blade will decrease. However that will increase the effort required by the paddler to hold onto the paddle so they will need bigger shoulders. Following this through a paddler with less strength would be better holding the paddle closer to the blade.

Of course all the above falls apart if you are executing a good roll. In that case the effort required is minimal, all you want is for the blade to stay as close to the surface as possible so that you don't have to have the flexibility of a 9 year old gymnast to bring the boat up. Water is strange stuff, the reaction force from moving a paddle through the water increases in a non-linear relationship to the speed of the blade through the water. You can increase the speed of the blade by moving your hands inboard with the benefit of increased support and the blade will stay closer to the surface. I think that teaching the Pawlata can be a useful step in teaching the screw roll and I could have used it a lot more when teaching people to roll.
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by DaveBland » Tue Mar 08, 2016 4:48 pm

Hi always hated Fizziks.
In normal language... it's harder to pull the paddle through the water with longer paddles when paddling normally, giving you more power if you have the strength to pull it. This also means that longer paddles are harder to pull on when rolling which helps stop paddle sinking.
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Jim » Tue Mar 08, 2016 4:59 pm

davebrads wrote: I think that teaching the Pawlata can be a useful step in teaching the screw roll and I could have used it a lot more when teaching people to roll.
Only if you stick close by and ensure they are using correct (screw roll) technique so that they are benefitting usefully from the increased tangential tip velocity, instead of getting away with poor technique because of it.

I have sometimes found it easier to teach a screw roll from scratch, than to develop it from a bad pawlata roll where poor technique had become so engrained that it couldn't easily be un-learned.
One thing I saw a lot was that people can pull the blade straight down towards the bottom of the pool in a pawlata roll, and it will naturally tend to slice out a bit so they manage a deep blade roll, but they don't feel or understand the slice and are unable to sweep the paddle onto that path themselves, which of course is all a screw roll really is. Worst case ever, when thinking about it, the poor lad was trying to sweep the blade under the boat instead of out.

Which is why I have gone the other way and stopped teaching pawlata first, but every pupil has different needs.

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Tue Mar 08, 2016 5:16 pm

buck197 wrote:Just an observation in that your hands are really close to the blades, is this because the shaft is short? You don't look like you are broad shouldered and so would expect your hands further away from the blades. This would give you a little more leverage.
Hands just moved out there as I used the paddle. Think its due to lack of upper body strength? So if I move my hands in the extra leverage get lost, this wouldn't really apply to the roll. It's short - 193cm but I'm only 155cm (5foot 1)! Can paddle with hands closer but thats where they go if I'm not thinking about it.
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Wed May 04, 2016 5:48 pm

2012 - fail to learn T-rescue
2013 - 1st WW lots of swims still no T-rescue
2014 - Got T-rescue in the pool tried rolling
2015 - Actually rolled, worked for 2 weeks disappeared again, worked once for real. Managed T-rescue for real. More bailing including when trying to roll so drop paddle half way through roll attempt.
2016 - Works better in the pool. Bail in river after trying to roll even when practicing, no successful rolls.

end of pool sessions back to real water 3 options

1 Don't roll, it mostly ends in bailing and doesn't involve successful rolling
2 Practice T-rescue to get wet hopefully sort the bailing problem
3 Try to roll

I think 2 there's been too much bailing on the few attempts to make rolling worth while.
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Terryg » Wed May 04, 2016 6:30 pm

Option 4: take a break from trying to roll for a while.

Most people who struggle with something end up overthinking it and get confused. Let it go for a while and just enjoy paddling.
Come back in a few months time when you have stopped thinking about it.

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Jim » Wed May 04, 2016 10:40 pm

I'm going to agree with Terry here.
I spent a while trying to learn to roll my canoe (Ocoee, OC1) and just wasn't quite getting it. Then I just stopped trying to learn to roll it and started to get out and paddle it more. After a while I found I was rolling it most times I capsized, even though I had stopped practising and never mastered it. Sometimes just spending time in your boat and developing a proper rapport with it can lead to being able to do things in it that you have never even tried before, and those whoich you have tried and thought you couldn't do.

Still haven't successfully rolled my new OC1 (Option), but I don't fall in nearly as much as I used to.....

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by DaveBland » Wed May 04, 2016 11:57 pm

Totally agree with both posts above. Just get out and paddle and enjoy it and if you swim, you swim. We all do :)

But one additional observation...
As you say, you don't have a rolling problem, you have a bailing problem. I would encourage you that while you are not trying to roll, if you do flip, work on hanging on for a second or two before bailing [assuming it's safe to].

I really think your issue is to do with the panic to bail and the rush to roll. Both related. Ultimately, until you are comfy being under water inverted on a river [it's not nice I know] you will always struggle.
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by TechnoEngineer » Thu May 05, 2016 2:27 pm

Agree with the others; don't get hung up over it. Perhaps fit some extra CC foam or airbags to your kayak to make bailing out less of a pain.

Also is there any water getting into the kayak?
gp.girl wrote:2012 - fail to learn T-rescue
2013 - 1st WW lots of swims still no T-rescue
2014 - Got T-rescue in the pool tried rolling
2015 - Actually rolled, worked for 2 weeks disappeared again, worked once for real. Managed T-rescue for real. More bailing including when trying to roll so drop paddle half way through roll attempt.
2016 - Works better in the pool. Bail in river after trying to roll even when practicing, no successful rolls.
Throughout this progression, have you kept using the same boat and paddle, and have you changed the outfitting?

Did you do the rolling course at PyB recently?
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Thu May 05, 2016 10:34 pm

Used a few different boats. 1st roll (and first T-rescue) clubs fluid solo had adjusted it for me as I'd used it on the white water weekend earlier. Second boat (and only moving water roll) was my small burn which has a silly amount of foam in it, then my GTS and last one was a perception dancer (mostly for a laugh). Even the dancer was mostly dry! Paddle has been the same thoughout.

Course is in July to be honest I'm not looking forward to it. Really want to sort this but currently too worried and just can't see anything improving. Nothing upside down tonight, even bracing was bad and I didn't get anywhere near off balance. Normal mixed relief at avoiding it and guilt I didn't try. Was the right thing to do though.
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by TechnoEngineer » Fri May 06, 2016 12:23 am

I guess the other thing to consider is whether your BA is restricting your movement when on the river compared to the pool. If you've found some boats easier to roll, then perhaps stick with them; it may be the case you have a more snug fit and the coaming is in the right place for you. Perhaps try a paddle that's 5cm longer and/or has foam core blades. Perhaps try making up a "finger board" using a plastic welding rod and some PVC/Gaffer tape to give you a better feel of the index - and adjust it if the paddle is diving during the sweep.

Don't worry about the course, you'll have a lot of fun with it.
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Fri May 06, 2016 2:47 pm

BA gets stuck between the boat and me, no way I can get as far round with it in place. Probably restricts flexibility too, just not so obvious. Right angle to stop the paddle diving makes the rear blade foul on the boat, a longer paddle might help with this?
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Chalky723 » Fri May 06, 2016 4:01 pm

I think you should do the course, a different coach may well help.

The trouble with all the good advice is that you're so probably so busy trying it all out you're likely not persevering with one particular style/technique and/or confusing yourself.

With the best will in the world, the forum won't get you rolling, it'll just give you a million things to think about when you're upside down.

You need someone physically there to assess & assist you - which is why you should either do this course or another similar one (Lee Valley?) with someone new.

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Re: RE: Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by neonbowhawk » Fri May 06, 2016 5:43 pm

gp.girl wrote:BA gets stuck between the boat and me, no way I can get as far round with it in place. Probably restricts flexibility too, just not so obvious. Right angle to stop the paddle diving makes the rear blade foul on the boat, a longer paddle might help with this?
I struggled with this to start with in my current boat.

Lifting your seating position will definitely help with both parts of this, you are able to reach round the boat and up out of the water further whilst setting up for the roll, which I have found is important for a reliable roll.

Your paddle clears the boat easier,
your Ba doesn't catch as much on the cockpit rim and for me my forward paddling improved as well.

To see if it helps you could use a gardeners kneeling mat to sit on or borrow someone' s sweet cheeks 100?

I know it's meant to make you less stable but I never really noticed that side of it.

Do you always wear your ba when rolling practice even in the pool?

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