Bl**dy Rolling

Inland paddling
Teaman
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Teaman » Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:45 pm

do high braces gradually getting the boat further and further past 90 degrees
I did that when I was struggling to roll with my left. basically I sussed out the last part of the roll by doing that. I just needed the transition.
sculling strokes.
most people I've seen practicing them by doing them really quickly.
lower your center of gravity and slow the scull down. a longer arc. 1pm to 5pm (using your boat as 12,6pm) relax your hands also. treat it as an extension of your hand. like kids do at the swimming pool skipping their hands across the top of the water.
the further you go over you need to change knees. I guess getting ready to hip flick back up once you go past the point where you are no longer edging your boat.

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Thu Nov 12, 2015 7:21 pm

Will have to start with getting the boat to 90 degrees. I can get my head in the water at <45 degrees, this might be cheating especially as it barely qualifies as off balance :) Never got on with edging, watched boats sitting at an angle with paddler upright, tried it and its an awful lot of work!? Another thing to try again :) This session is getting busy.
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Ruby_W
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Ruby_W » Fri Nov 13, 2015 10:57 am

No idea if this is too much extra info - I'm a firm believer in trying different cues in sports, some work well for one person but not for another, same in weightlifting moves - http://www.rapidmedia.com/adventurekaya ... nique.html - dropping your opposing knee to bring the boat up first. I'll experiment with this this weekend I think!

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Fri Nov 13, 2015 2:51 pm

Read that one but struggled to work out what they wanted you to do on the practice exercise. Photos would have been helpful. It does work if you get it right :) even a quick upright go shows this.
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Teaman » Fri Nov 13, 2015 4:36 pm

Ruby_W wrote:No idea if this is too much extra info - I'm a firm believer in trying different cues in sports, some work well for one person but not for another, same in weightlifting moves - http://www.rapidmedia.com/adventurekaya ... nique.html - dropping your opposing knee to bring the boat up first. I'll experiment with this this weekend I think!
I believe it means .
if your rolling on your right you would drop your left leg, or straightening it whilst bringing the right knee up ( try it sitting on the floor)
eventually rolls will begin to be muscle memory. you will mess it up thinking too much about it. (I know I do)

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Fri Nov 13, 2015 4:56 pm

Thinking certainly messes it up just can't see how you do it without thinking about it to actually learn it. Chicken and egg problem! Lots of videos (Glenmore and the Jackson one etc) show a sequence of moves which should build up into a roll. So I learnt how to hipflick but can't actually use this with a proper roll as it's 'tied' to something that roll doesn't have. Thankfully this is the last pool session of the year due to too many busy weekends. I will have to keep practicing T-rescue on the river :) Might have to book a course in January.
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by DaveBland » Fri Nov 13, 2015 7:03 pm

I videoed me rolling after polo last night. Mainly as I wanted to watch my own roll - when do you ever get to see yourself? But also to try to help [and no doubt opening myself up to no end of criticism].

Firstly the point about getting your paddle to the surface before you start. I kinda went way to far to make the point, but I'm an old inflexible gimmer... and I can get my paddles out, so it is possible.
On and off side rolls shown. Hopefully it demonstrates what I was saying about just doing a big sweep stroke. it's as simple as that. All this talk of knees and other stuff is just detail that's not needed.
You get into a nice paddle up tuck with your front paddle blade out from the boat if you can - and just do a big stroke.

At the end I try to show a big old school high brace which is another good way to practice the 'stroke' part of the roll without all that messy actual capsizing. It's all kinda the same thing...

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Chalky723 » Fri Nov 13, 2015 10:41 pm

DaveBland wrote: You get into a nice paddle up tuck with your front paddle blade out from the boat if you can - and just do a big stroke.
That's what it all boils down to for me too.

If I try to think I don't come up, if I just concentrate on getting that paddle out, I'll come up. I couldn't tell you what I do after the paddle comes out, but I come up and I come up consistently.

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Sat Nov 14, 2015 6:12 pm

Went rather well except the camera wasn't charged. Borrowed Adrian and went back to basics starting with getting the paddle in the right place, trying to sweep out a bit and then getting him to guide the paddle and bang the boat when its in the right place. Seemed to work :) Now going to have to do an eskimo rescue in the Thames tomorrow. Not risking trying to roll!
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by DaveBland » Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:56 pm

gp.girl wrote:Not risking trying to roll!
Where's the risk? It you don't try, then you certainly won't get up! Have one go then go back under for a T rescue if you need to. Let everyone know you'll have one go if you flip, but to get there quick if you don't.
You CAN roll. Believing it will go a long way to getting you up.
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:58 pm

On L1 course. Did think about it (worked in the pool with Adrian) only get one try at a self rescue so the eskimo is a much better bet. Might sneak off with a buddy to have a go at rolling :)
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Sun Dec 20, 2015 10:14 pm

Variable results. WW weekend 1 - rubbish, stayed upright except when trying to roll and managing to swim. Pool session roll working. L1 rescue went fine. WW weekend 2 - no roll but at least I managed the rescue :) Today actually practice rolled - 1st time on a river!
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Ruby_W
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Ruby_W » Sun Dec 20, 2015 10:32 pm

Yay Well done!! Getting there!!

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:32 am



Sort of better? Well at least worked more often, still can't keep the paddle on the surface.
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Franky » Sat Jan 09, 2016 10:45 am

gp.girl wrote:<span class="skimlinks-unlinked">

Sort of better? Well at least worked more often, still can't keep the paddle on the surface.
You need to lean your torso right back onto the back deck of the boat as you come up. This pulls the centre of gravity near to the boat, and increases your angular momentum - you will find the boat actually speeds up as it resurfaces.

Watch what Ken Whiting does at 0:40 here:

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Hakase » Sat Jan 09, 2016 11:54 am

Franky wrote:
gp.girl wrote:<span class="skimlinks-unlinked">

Sort of better? Well at least worked more often, still can't keep the paddle on the surface.
You need to lean your torso right back onto the back deck of the boat as you come up. This pulls the centre of gravity near to the boat, and increases your angular momentum - you will find the boat actually speeds up as it resurfaces.

Watch what Ken Whiting does at 0:40 here:
You don't at all need to do that, and if you can manage without doing it that's all the better -- it's far better to come up in a position suited for active paddling and the next stroke you're about to take. Lying on the back deck gives you very little control over your boat and it's really not a position you can do anything from.

@gp.girl

That's looking great! Honestly, the best thing from now on is practice rather than fresh advice on technique. You'd want to work on getting the sweep and the flick as more of a single fluid motion -- the reason the paddle dives is partly because of that (you're losing the lift from the sweep as you stop to begin the flick). The other reason the paddle dives seems to be because you're pulling down on it with your arm a bit too much (and punching out with the other arm, if that makes sense), but I think you'll probably fix this after just a little more practice -- no need to focus on it.

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Chalky723 » Sat Jan 09, 2016 12:12 pm

gp.girl wrote:

Sort of better? Well at least worked more often, still can't keep the paddle on the surface.
Personally I'd say you need to add a bit of "punch" for the actual stroke - if you do it slowly & gently you're going to make it hard for yourself. It needs to be assertive & consistent....

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Sat Jan 09, 2016 12:28 pm

More practice next Sunday.

Will work on keeping it one motion - I still hesitate which is better than than stopping like before. Saw the punching on the video just not sure how to stop doing it :) Harder/faster going to involve stopping hurrying!
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Franky » Sat Jan 09, 2016 1:36 pm

Hakase wrote:
Franky wrote:
gp.girl wrote:<span class="skimlinks-unlinked">

Sort of better? Well at least worked more often, still can't keep the paddle on the surface.
You need to lean your torso right back onto the back deck of the boat as you come up. This pulls the centre of gravity near to the boat, and increases your angular momentum - you will find the boat actually speeds up as it resurfaces.

Watch what Ken Whiting does at 0:40 here:
You don't at all need to do that, and if you can manage without doing it that's all the better -- it's far better to come up in a position suited for active paddling and the next stroke you're about to take. Lying on the back deck gives you very little control over your boat and it's really not a position you can do anything from.
You could say the same thing about being under water in the first place.

I can verify from experience that leaning back brings you up more easily. Setting up for your next stroke is something to worry about once you're up.

If it's no use, why does Ken Whiting - who is certainly an expert - advocate it?

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Hakase » Sat Jan 09, 2016 2:37 pm

Because it's a technique that lends early success to learners at the expense of later utility?

It's aimed more at those for whom the roll is an objective, as opposed to a tool. The coach who says they can teach rolling in a day is going to seem like a more attractive option than a coach whose students take longer to achieve a roll -- even if they learn a more effective version.

>I can verify from experience that leaning back brings you up more easily. Setting up for your next stroke is something to worry about once you're up.

There's nothing you've said here that's false, but maybe the better way to think about it is in terms of increasing effectiveness. It's certainly more effective, more useful, if you can resurface ready to continue paddling. Same with the sweep vs the C to C roll; you could say that the hip flick is something to worry about once the paddle is in the right position (and thereby the C to C roll is easier and the one that should be taught) -- but there's no question that the sweep roll is the more effective base roll, because it combines the two steps into one (providing not only a faster, but a more solid roll). It's the same with this situation.

If you also consider the case as follows: say you're sidesurfing in a hole, and capsize -- not too uncommon, I think! Rolling up in a normal, upright position places you in the optimum place to edge, brace, or perform any maneuver. Rolling up on the back deck places you lying on the back deck with very poor control over your edging and very little ability to brace or prevent another capsize.

All that said, there are differences of opinion, and this is merely my own opinion. Ken Whiting may well disagree, but I've yet to see a convincing argument for that case; whereas I can easily argue for the opposite case.

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Franky » Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:05 pm

Hakase - fine, each to his own. Though Dave B leans back in his video. That's the move I was talking about, in case it wasn't clear from my description.

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Wadhamite » Sat Jan 09, 2016 10:58 pm

DaveBland wrote:I videoed me rolling after polo last night. Mainly as I wanted to watch my own roll - when do you ever get to see yourself? But also to try to help [and no doubt opening myself up to no end of criticism].

Firstly the point about getting your paddle to the surface before you start. I kinda went way to far to make the point, but I'm an old inflexible gimmer... and I can get my paddles out, so it is possible.
On and off side rolls shown. Hopefully it demonstrates what I was saying about just doing a big sweep stroke. it's as simple as that. All this talk of knees and other stuff is just detail that's not needed.
You get into a nice paddle up tuck with your front paddle blade out from the boat if you can - and just do a big stroke.

At the end I try to show a big old school high brace which is another good way to practice the 'stroke' part of the roll without all that messy actual capsizing. It's all kinda the same thing...

Nice vid! I simply *could not* high brace effectively until I learned to roll; now I tend to brace if I tip leaning backwards and roll if I tip leaning forwards. Back deck rolls are the next challenge, and a reliable hand roll...
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by DaveBland » Sat Jan 09, 2016 11:09 pm

Franky wrote:Hakase - fine, each to his own. Though Dave B leans back in his video. That's the move I was talking about, in case it wasn't clear from my description.
Agreed, but blimey, don't follow my technique! I am pretty much self taught at all my paddling. The reason for the vid was more to do with getting blade high out water.

But... no doubt it's easier to come up if laying close to boat. Fact. Whether that is the ideal position to come up in is up for debate, but I agree with Franky that the no.1 priority is to get up. How you cope after that is secondary. A bit of a sit-up combined with a stroke to get you moving and you're good to go... But I do also agree that if you are coming up to only flail around and go over again, that can be totally counter productive. The most important thing to do when up is go, go. go... doesn't matter where or if you can see or breathe... just get moving. NOW!

But bearing in mind also that the OP has been struggling to get up, again I'd agree that if it takes a less than perfect finishing position to get a result, than so be it. At least she'll have success.
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Chalky723 » Sun Jan 10, 2016 10:31 am

DaveBland wrote: But bearing in mind also that the OP has been struggling to get up, again I'd agree that if it takes a less than perfect finishing position to get a result, than so be it. At least she'll have success.
I almost wonder if it's time to give up on the rolling for a few months & concentrate on not going over in the first place - braces, anticipation etc. If you can get a decent, solid High Brace going then a roll will almost come along on it's own eventually.

At the moment there's a lot of over-thinking & stressing going on which is probably detracting from the overall paddling experience. I'd be tempted to just paddle & if you swim, you swim - it's not the end of the world....

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by buck197 » Sun Jan 10, 2016 11:08 am

Maybe too much conflicting advice?
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Mon Jan 11, 2016 7:17 pm

Back on the Dart soon and seem to out every other week after that, better at staying upright now can manage a day or even a weekend without swimming. Need to find something challenging that doesn't involve waves as thats just a way to swim! I see a game of 'get in that eddy' in my future. Bracing and anticipation have improved, I often don't know how or why it worked except I now tend to do something which is almost always better than nothing. Sort of annoying would be worse if I had to explain it to someone!
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by TechnoEngineer » Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:42 pm

Franky wrote:You need to lean your torso right back onto the back deck of the boat as you come up. This pulls the centre of gravity near to the boat....
Whilst that is true, and reflects the technique from a Standard Greenland Roll, it causes the stomach muscles to become disengaged, so if you roll up into turbulent water (e.g. the Hurley Weir wavetrain) then you're likely to capsize again. Secondly, if you're in a playboat and roll up facing downstream, you will most likely become tail-ended and go back in.

When I started to use playboats, I had to unlearn the whole lean-back tactic, which took me the best part of a year (or two) to adjust.
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by TechnoEngineer » Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:45 pm

gp.girl wrote:Saw the punching on the video just not sure how to stop doing it :)
Try doing the last bit of the roll - flop your body into the water and brace back up - as Dave shows in his video. Or put a sponge ball under your armpit and try to keep it there.

Note also in Dave's video just how much he keeps his elbows close to his body.
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Thu Jan 14, 2016 7:40 pm

Will take a sponge and more video. High bracing that far = lots of T-rescue practice. Not that this is a bad thing as it's still dodgy.

Not keen on leaning back any more than I do already.
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by TechnoEngineer » Thu Jan 14, 2016 8:17 pm

The crack with the high brace practise is to make sure you get the timing right - brace up with the paddle just after your body hits the water. So make your body hit the water before the paddle.

When the body hits the water, the momentum briefly stops, before sinking further. You can of course do it Pawlata or extended style to build confidence, and then gradually reduce the extension until you're holding the paddle "normally".
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