Bl**dy Rolling

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Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:01 pm

Tried again. No successful attempts by myself. 50/50 with someone guiding the paddle. Managed head up, no/late hip flick, lots of paddle diving and my personal invention of getting the paddle in the right place and giving up because it feels completely wrong. So still have no idea what to do to get upright.

On a positive note my high brace has improved :) and I actually managed a side surf on the Dee!
I can roll :)

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Badknee » Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:08 pm

I know that feeling very well. Persevere.
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Cabbagepatchkid » Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:09 pm

Have you tried sculling down till your upside down then skull yourself back up to a point you can hip flick back upright?

Kind of combine sculling with a roll.

When playboating I often roll till I am almost up then kind of low brace skull forward to finish the roll (mostly because I'm usually shattered and if I don't get my weight forwards I'll back loop).

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by garya » Mon Sep 28, 2015 11:59 pm

Try these things in no particular order

Get a waterproof camera and get someone to video you rolling above and below the water... it will be easier to breakdown what is happening and compare what you are doing to others and relate it to what you are feeling.

Concentrate on making the whole roll a single smooth continuous action rather than trying to do two distinct parts. The sweep roll as it is called is usually an easier place to start. I doesn't really have a distinct hipflick phase.

Concentrate on hand position if your paddle is diving. This is usually caused by pushing your back hand away from you as if you are taking a paddle stroke. Try it closer to your shoulder and rolling your hand back so your knuckles are almost on your shoulder by the completion of the roll.

Rolling by Kent Ford video ... or Grace under pressure are good videos if you can get hold of a copy

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Timo50 » Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:41 am

It took me over a year to finally 'get it', stick at it, it will come, and then keep in practise rolling, whenever you get a chance so you don't loose it!

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Chalky723 » Tue Sep 29, 2015 8:08 am

I find that if I try to think about every stage of it whilst upside down I'll fail.

Nowadays I concentrate on getting the paddle blade out of the water (taking the time to do it), once that's been done the rest seems to fall into place.
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Teaman » Tue Sep 29, 2015 10:19 am

A pool session. A pair of goggles and optional, camera.
Rule one for me was watch my paddle blade all through the stroke, it stops premature hip flick, fnarr
The camera is good or a watcher to figure out what type of roll you're doing.
Sweep or c to c or a hybrid of the two.
Some can't do one but the other.
There are some helpful vids on YouTube
Go under, Count to 2. Set up then roll.
Don't rush just relax.
Once you nail a few try with your eyes closed.
I have a fairly bomb proof rh roll. A dodgy left and a fairly consistent back deck roll now. Just sort of clicked on the left one.
Transferring to open water is a challenge as shock is something you have to cope with because of cold water and you weren't planning on being up side down.
Just practice. And don't worry about swimming.

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by TechnoEngineer » Tue Sep 29, 2015 10:53 am

Sarah - hit me up.

Which pool sessions are convenient for you (or the lake at LV)?
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by feedbackproblem » Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:18 am

Teaman wrote:Rule one for me was watch my paddle blade all through the stroke, it stops premature hip flick, fnarr
I'll second that being a good bit of advice. I learned to roll on my right side without doing it but hit a brick wall on my left until I read about watching the paddle. I've not thought about it in terms of stopping a premature hip flick but for me it certainly worked to prevent me trying to lift my head out of the water too soon.

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:36 pm

TechnoEngineer wrote:Sarah - hit me up.

Which pool sessions are convenient for you (or the lake at LV)?
Will be at New Addington on the 2nd. Hoping to be at LV on the 10th, seem to be spending most weekends in various rivers/pools this month! Missing a lot of pool sessions as they are on Fridays or Sundays and don't work if you're away :(

Camera - no problem can even borrow a camaraman can't watch it on the night though.
Trying sweep roll at the moment would say I either hesitate and lose it or hurry and dive the paddle. No idea if my back hand is pushing away will find out on Friday. The higher up the paddle is the more likely I find it to be difficult do the next bit. That doesn't read very well as it should work much better? Almost feel stuck upside down with no rotation at all.
I can roll :)

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by davek » Tue Sep 29, 2015 10:26 pm

We run pool sessions in West London on Thursday evenings with rolling coaching available - and a pretty good success rate. PM me if you're interested.

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by jet » Wed Sep 30, 2015 8:55 am

I can't really give advice as I've never seen you roll or try to roll.

I can say what it took for me, although I'm out of practice now.

I took myself off to the side of the pool and did hip flick after hip flick on both sides for a couple of sessions. This got the flick action sorted, conditioned me to leave my head until last and promoted the right muscle memory.

Same thing with the paddle. Although you'd be amazed how much damage you can do practicing rolls whilst sat on an office swivel chair with a paddle :-)

I even played around with the feather on my split paddles to see if I was twisting the paddle the wrong way so it dived when I swept to the side.

As I said, these were some things I did. Whether they suit you is a different matter.

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by DaveBland » Wed Sep 30, 2015 4:35 pm

Chalky723 wrote:I find that if I try to think about every stage of it whilst upside down I'll fail.

Nowadays I concentrate on getting the paddle blade out of the water (taking the time to do it), once that's been done the rest seems to fall into place.
Damn right!!

Hey, as you are clearly comfortable 'internet sharing' why not post up a vid of your attempts? I'm sure you'll get more advice than you could handle.
Actually, maybe just get your rolling videoed and watch it yourself. It will be the best way for you to see and understand for yourself where you are going wrong.

Here's another trick I saw work well once. Wear two BAs. Or shove a float up your BA. Loads of floatation.
Then flip over and let your body float to the surface. Relax, let your boat just go where is comfortable. Breathe. Relax. Now and only now, think about your paddle. Maybe get someone to put it in your hands in the right position.

Now, really easy, use your paddle and hip flick to pop yourself up.
dave

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Wed Sep 30, 2015 5:46 pm

DaveBland wrote:
Chalky723 wrote:I find that if I try to think about every stage of it whilst upside down I'll fail.

Nowadays I concentrate on getting the paddle blade out of the water (taking the time to do it), once that's been done the rest seems to fall into place.
Damn right!!

Hey, as you are clearly comfortable 'internet sharing' why not post up a vid of your attempts? I'm sure you'll get more advice than you could handle.
Actually, maybe just get your rolling videoed and watch it yourself. It will be the best way for you to see and understand for yourself where you are going wrong.

Here's another trick I saw work well once. Wear two BAs. Or shove a float up your BA. Loads of floatation.
Then flip over and let your body float to the surface. Relax, let your boat just go where is comfortable. Breathe. Relax. Now and only now, think about your paddle. Maybe get someone to put it in your hands in the right position.

Now, really easy, use your paddle and hip flick to pop yourself up.
Video going up Saturday including trying this! Will steal hubbys B/A :)
I can roll :)

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by DaveBland » Wed Sep 30, 2015 5:55 pm

oooh, shoulda said, twist to lay on your back when floating. Good luck.
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Cabbagepatchkid » Wed Sep 30, 2015 7:48 pm

I've duck taped a swimming float to a learners paddle before and that works quite well, it forces the paddle to sit on the water and reduces the chance of it diving as you sweep. It also offers something more solid to try and compensate for a poor or badly timed hip flick

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Mark Dixon » Fri Oct 02, 2015 6:52 pm

2 methods worth trying, I'm assuming your right handed

1. Try setting up reaching as far forward as you can with your paddle towards the front left quadrant of your boat, now imagine you have a shovel full of snow instead a paddle, then attempt to shovel the snow over your shoulder and straight towards the back right quadrant of your boat. Its not something I think of whilst rolling but a friend went through it with someone, I tried it and it definately works.

2. Have a go at concentrating on your left arm rather than your leading right arm, go over then try and pull your left hand out of the water and onto the underside of your kayak near the centre, this will naturally pull you into a C to C set up if your eyes follow your right arm out and to the side. (keep your eyes on the right blade) Once your left arm is in position and you are touching the underside pull hard on your right arm and right knee to roll the boat up easily ( remember if you pull on your knee your head cannot lift)

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Chris Bolton » Fri Oct 02, 2015 8:28 pm

There are two ways to think about what you're trying to achieve in a roll - some people find one easier than the other:

A - Body position and movement, eg, set up like this, face this way, move this arm, etc. There's a lot of good discussion in this thread on these aspects.

B - Boat and body movement. Understand what you're trying to do in broad terms. The way I find helpful to think about is, while the boat is upside down, your body and paddle should extend out from the boat on the side you plan to roll on. Ideally, you want your body just below the surface so that it's still supported by the water, and the paddle just above the surface. Then, with the body still floating and a little extra support from the paddle, turn the boat upright using your hips. Then, with the boat mostly upright, and not before, lift your body out of the water and back into balance. This isn't discussed much in the thread, so far as I can see, although there are some good hints on achieving it, such as look up through the water.

Body position is much more important than paddle position

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Jim » Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:35 pm

Chris Bolton wrote:Body position is much more important than paddle position
Absolutely, if that wasn't the case hand rolling and no-hand rolling wouldn't be possible....

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by DaveBland » Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:51 pm

Chris Bolton wrote:...Ideally, you want your body just below the surface so that it's still supported by the water, and the paddle just above the surface. Then, with the body still floating and a little extra support from the paddle, turn the boat upright using your hips.
Couldn't agree more. I think that's what the 'two BAs' thing is trying to help achieve.
Chris Bolton wrote:Body position is much more important than paddle position
I'd say they are both as important. So many folks fail to roll on the river with correct body position, but paddle too deep before starting.

I think it's the correct START [paddle and body] position that's the key.
Quite often it can be a flexibility issue too. Shorter people find it harder to wrap their torso round.

In a pool with a mate in the water to bring you up, getting comfortable holding the tuck with paddle in place [with no intention of rolling] just holding it there for a few seconds longer each time, will do wonders for muscle memory. It's not the most comfy of positions and if you are only reaching 'full tuck with paddle up' for a fraction of a second at the end of a lunge forward, it'll make timing really tricky. If you can hold the tuck, wait relax, then roll up, it's way less stressful.
It then translates great onto the river as you learn to hold on until you are in quieter water when you need to.
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Sat Oct 03, 2015 7:36 am

Here it is, didn't get much else as I couldn't borrow a camera person. Adrian can do a T-rescue in a WW canoe :)

I can roll :)

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by mostly_upsidedown » Sat Oct 03, 2015 10:22 am

Useful video. Look at your underwater start position. Your right hand and paddle blade is nowhere near starting by being out of the water. You need to sort this.

Things to try:
Stop trying to roll. I repeat, stop trying to roll. Practice the bit that needs practicing, otherwise you'll be thinking about the next part of the roll rather than the bit you need to work on. So do each exercise a few times and then get someone to bring you up again. The aim of these exercises is not to roll but to get used to the start position.

1) Get someone to hold you in the correct start position, stay there for a bit. It may be that you're not flexible enough to be in this position comfortably, and this is a good way of working that out. Think about which muscles are feeling stretched in that position, and then you can work out land based stretching exercises to improve things.
2) Get into the start position without your paddle. slap the side of your boat, above the waterline. make sure you can feel that your hands are dry, i.e. out of the water. Work your hands up the side of the boat to see how far you can reach
3) with your paddle, get into the start position. Slap the surface of the water with your right blade a few times. This both checks that your blade is in the right position, and reminds you that the surface tension of the water is your friend...
4) are you looking at your blade? Whilst you're doing these exercises, look at it and check that it's out of the water.

I went through this stage myself; thinking really hard about the paddle sweep and the next bit of the roll that I didn't start in the right place. I still slap the water with the paddle blade to check it's in the right place.

I'd say you've probably got a very good hip flick to roll up the second time despite your start position. And i've seen plenty of people rolling who aren't flexible enough to get into the proper start position, so if you're not flexible enough to get there, it's not the end of the world, it's simply a case of making every other element of the roll excellent enough that it compensates for the first bit.


Keep at it, it's taken me several years, and I've only just got a flatwater roll. Still can't see the point where i'll get a whitewater one...

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Chalky723 » Sat Oct 03, 2015 12:26 pm

mostly_upsidedown wrote:Your right hand and paddle blade is nowhere near starting by being out of the water. You need to sort this.
This is what revolutionised my roll - if I focus on getting that blade out of the water, the rest happens.

Also - take your time, you can hold your breath for 40-60 seconds easily, ignore your brain telling you you'll drown - you won't!!

C
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by RichTyler » Sat Oct 03, 2015 3:23 pm

During your set-up your leading hand (you right hand in the video) is being placed too far forwards towards the bow of the boat, this often happens as it is commonly taught to 'tuck' forwards' when capsizing.

Although tucking up is very wise (especially on UK rivers) try to avoid reaching forwards (towards the bow) with your leading hand when you tuck as this limits your reach 'upwards' out of the water'. If you can keep your leading hand closer to your body you may find it easier to keep your blade out of the water (which should give you more 'blade resistance time' and therefore a bigger time frame in which you can complete your hip-flick and recovery before the blade sinks too deep becoming inactive.

The video link below has a good visual of this around the 3.20 mark :)



Good body recovery on the second roll by the way, hope you are well!

Richie

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by DaveBland » Sat Oct 03, 2015 6:12 pm

Yay! As everyone said before and then after the vid. It's all about the set up position. Sort that and you'll be 100%

Get that tuck sorted. And wait. You are rushing your roll before you are in the right position.
As post above says, you can hold your breath for quite a while.

A few thoughts:

Sit watching telly at night on the floor in tuck position to get you stretched and more used to that position. Do anything to make that tuck more natural.

Do you open your eyes when under water? If so, try to see your blade and watch it get out of the water before you pull the trigger. if you can waggle it around on/above the surface, it'll make you slow down and get you set up right.

Maybe don't start from the ready to roll position. It may feel like an easier route but I actually think it's holding you back. If you are 'ready tucked' before you go over, the assumption is that you will stay tucked and in the right position when you are flipped. But this doesn't happen. You get moved a bit and out of position as you go over, so you are then not in the ideal position that you think you are. This is fine if you adjust it from there but it can be trickier than going over in any random position and then you HAVE to get yourself in position and you get it right. Plus of course it translates onto a 'real' situation better.

Other than that, you have got it nailed!
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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Sat Oct 03, 2015 8:44 pm

mostly_upsidedown wrote:Useful video. Look at your underwater start position. Your right hand and paddle blade is nowhere near starting by being out of the water. You need to sort this.

Things to try:
Stop trying to roll. I repeat, stop trying to roll. Practice the bit that needs practicing, otherwise you'll be thinking about the next part of the roll rather than the bit you need to work on. So do each exercise a few times and then get someone to bring you up again. The aim of these exercises is not to roll but to get used to the start position.

1) Get someone to hold you in the correct start position, stay there for a bit. It may be that you're not flexible enough to be in this position comfortably, and this is a good way of working that out. Think about which muscles are feeling stretched in that position, and then you can work out land based stretching exercises to improve things.
2) Get into the start position without your paddle. slap the side of your boat, above the waterline. make sure you can feel that your hands are dry, i.e. out of the water. Work your hands up the side of the boat to see how far you can reach
3) with your paddle, get into the start position. Slap the surface of the water with your right blade a few times. This both checks that your blade is in the right position, and reminds you that the surface tension of the water is your friend...
4) are you looking at your blade? Whilst you're doing these exercises, look at it and check that it's out of the water.

I went through this stage myself; thinking really hard about the paddle sweep and the next bit of the roll that I didn't start in the right place. I still slap the water with the paddle blade to check it's in the right place.

I'd say you've probably got a very good hip flick to roll up the second time despite your start position. And I've seen plenty of people rolling who aren't flexible enough to get into the proper start position, so if you're not flexible enough to get there, it's not the end of the world, it's simply a case of making every other element of the roll excellent enough that it compensates for the first bit.


Keep at it, it's taken me several years, and I've only just got a flatwater roll. Still can't see the point where I'll get a whitewater one...
Might be able to give it a try tomorrow although the pool is going to be cold! :(
Chalky723 wrote:
mostly_upsidedown wrote:Your right hand and paddle blade is nowhere near starting by being out of the water. You need to sort this.
This is what revolutionised my roll - if I focus on getting that blade out of the water, the rest happens.

Also - take your time, you can hold your breath for 40-60 seconds easily, ignore your brain telling you you'll drown - you won't!!

C
Might be able to hold my breathe but keeping my hands away from the spraydeck loop that long is difficult!
RichTyler wrote:During your set-up your leading hand (you right hand in the video) is being placed too far forwards towards the bow of the boat, this often happens as it is commonly taught to 'tuck' forwards' when capsizing.

Although tucking up is very wise (especially on UK rivers) try to avoid reaching forwards (towards the bow) with your leading hand when you tuck as this limits your reach 'upwards' out of the water'. If you can keep your leading hand closer to your body you may find it easier to keep your blade out of the water (which should give you more 'blade resistance time' and therefore a bigger time frame in which you can complete your hip-flick and recovery before the blade sinks too deep becoming inactive.

The video link below has a good visual of this around the 3.20 mark :)



Good body recovery on the second roll by the way, hope you are well!

Richie
Watched video - that looks totally different, would that make me stay totally upside down trying to roll? Sometimes I could strangle myself where did I manage to learn a body recovery???!!!

Doing well, did Town Falls twice :) spending lots of time on the water!
I can roll :)

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Chris Bolton » Sat Oct 03, 2015 9:04 pm

Might be able to hold my breathe but keeping my hands away from the spraydeck loop that long is difficult!
It might be worth taking the time, when you have a suitable pool. just practicing holding your breath - while not in a boat, making it stress free. I did this with a nervous beginner who was worried she wouldn't have enough breath to even do a wet exit. She stood in the shallow end of the pool and then ducked under, and on the first try 5 seconds was her maximum. Half an hour later, she could stay under for a minute with no problem at all. If you know you can hold your breath, it takes the pressure off your roll.

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Jim » Sun Oct 04, 2015 1:50 am

The guys are right but giving too much info to take in.

Capsize, pause and try to feel air on your right hand, if you can't feel air push that hand towards the surface until you can feel air, and then you can start to roll.

To make it easier to get your right hand to the air, do what you are doing now (your tuck is fine), and then bend your right elbow bringing the paddle and both hands back towards you 20cm or more until your right forearm is brushing your buoyancy aid.

There is no point saying more until you have tried it a few times and maybe got some more video of how it turns out.

There is a common pitfall that creeps in when trying what I advise, but I think the rest of your technique is close enough that you may not encounter it, so I won't describe it, unless I see you doing it in the next video :)

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Franky » Sun Oct 04, 2015 12:01 pm

Chris Bolton wrote: It might be worth taking the time, when you have a suitable pool. just practicing holding your breath - while not in a boat, making it stress free. I did this with a nervous beginner who was worried she wouldn't have enough breath to even do a wet exit. She stood in the shallow end of the pool and then ducked under, and on the first try 5 seconds was her maximum. Half an hour later, she could stay under for a minute with no problem at all. If you know you can hold your breath, it takes the pressure off your roll.
I agree. As a kid, when I went swimming with friends, we'd sometimes play at seeing who could stay under water the longest. I didn't imagine at the time it would ever prove useful, but it has! Obviously, you take a deep breath first... but you'd be surprised how long you can stay under water without taking a deep breath, if you stay calm and keep your stomach muscles still.

Of course, you can practise holding your breath anywhere. You don't need to be under water.

As others said, your (Sarah's) roll looks pretty good except for the lack of a set-up. You have to get your blade out of the water, because with your paddle horizontal to the surface of the water you're getting maximum leverage. You lose this leverage rapidly with every degree your paddle sinks. It's the initial pull from the horizontal that does most of the work.

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Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl » Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:22 pm

Used to be pretty good at holding my breath as a kid both distance, time, how many forward rolls can you do and diving to the bottom to grab items. I cheat when not in the water. Currently 5 seconds okay 10 very uncomfortable in a boat. The first crappy roll attempt wasn't helped by the paniced swim the 'roll' before. If I get the paddle on the surface I find I can't hip flick at all either relaxing or the act of reaching up means I lose all connection with the boat. Still get 'stuck' doing t-rescue like this bit of old footage. Totally knackered today 11.30 to 5.15 of 15 minute taster sessions + prep and clear up with a lunch break thank goodness.

I can roll :)

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