Embarrassed by Kayaking Vid

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The Shell
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Embarrassed by Kayaking Vid

Post by The Shell » Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:47 pm

Surely there must have previously been a post about this......

Has anyone had the misfortune to watch even a little bit of 'End Game'?

I hadn't seen it and put it on the other night in front of some mates who are pretty damn good at some other adventurous sports.....needless to say i am still getting emails telling me how pathetic kayaking looks, what's worse is that after that film i can;t argue with them.....

Was anyone else disappointed?

Ryan

ps Not the place to say this but holy beg if you want to see the best sports video ever made and you quite like the cold stuff then freestyle skiing vid 'WAR' is like nothing i've ever seen before....even Teton Gravity films cant touch this bad boy
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NickH
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Post by NickH » Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:37 pm

Watch end game again, when you are a reasonably profficient kayaker, and have enough experience to actually understand how gnarly what they paddle is.

I agree it's not an ideal movie to show to non kayakers, but to claim that it looks pathetic demonstrates a lack of imagination and kayaking experience on your behalf.

War is a pretty cool film, but the stuff in it is not actually more difficult or dangerous than much of End Game. I expect you will come to realise this at some point.

Also, don't feel you need to compete with other sports for hardcoreness anyway, if they're not interested that's entirely their problem.

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Dug
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Post by Dug » Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:45 pm

I'd say end game was the best kayaking DVDs I've ever seen, not that I've watched many right enough.
I think with most adventure/extreme sports DVDs/TVs its only really interesting to the participants of the sport. Once you've seen one guy go down a big fall, they all look the same to the uninitiated.

e.g. I was never very impressed by mountain biking on TV but now after trying it I can appreciate just how good the guys on TV really are!!

Dug

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James F
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Post by James F » Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:53 pm

Excellent.

Marv
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Post by Marv » Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:56 pm

when you are a reasonably profficient kayaker
a lack of imagination and kayaking experience on your behalf.
You have no idea how wrong you are [both in the comments themselves and the general abusive nature of your post]

Marv

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Post by Marv » Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:58 pm

PS- haven't seen End Game so I'm not making any statements on the video, just on the abusive and intolerant post above.

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Ryan Clements
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Post by Ryan Clements » Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:25 pm

NickH wrote:Watch end game again, when you are a reasonably profficient kayaker, and have enough experience to actually understand how gnarly what they paddle is.


Nick, you have have disagreed with Shell about what is simply his opinion (on having watched the film), but have made a sweeping statement to the effect that he is unqualified to make it. If you are going to give an opinion that's cool, but personally I would be more inclined to listen to it wasn't a personal attack and a) it's not self-contradictory, and b) it's based on some kind of rational argument.

So, a question for you; if Shell is not "qualified" to express his opinion on a film he has watched (which is what you imply), what makes you "qualified" to make that statement. Is it that you are an authority on all that is kayaking, that you have paddled with him a lot and your comment is based on experience or is it just that you are arrogent as can be?
I expect you will come to realise this at some point.
Patronising at best- with respect, great one!

Bod
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Post by Bod » Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:35 pm

I guess there is no more water in Scotland than in the Southwest then?

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Ryan Clements
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Post by Ryan Clements » Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:38 pm

Bod wrote:I guess there is no more water in Scotland than in the Southwest then?
Nope;-)

Chertsey Matt
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End Game

Post by Chertsey Matt » Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:15 pm

I too was embarrassed by End Game, although for different reasons. I thought the paddling in it was top notch, and I specifically agreed with Corran's approach to the section on First Descents and the risks inherent therein.

However, has an ardent Hunter S Thompson fan (well I was until he... well you get the idea) I found Corran's pastiche on Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas excruciating and agonising, and the idea that their global paddling trip could be crow-barred into a comparison with Thompson’s drug addled epic laughable.

And another thing, how come when Corran was in Val Sesia the warm sun shone down, and when I was there it snowed on us for what seemed the whole week…?

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Mark R
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Post by Mark R » Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:49 pm

I've never seen it - guy in the shop told me not to buy it, said it stank (oddly, I got the same advice from a different shop about the creeking film which followed).

Really ought to see it though...form my own judgement and all that. Anyone got an old copy for loan?
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David Fairweather
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Post by David Fairweather » Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:00 pm

I'm sure I've got a copy kicking around somewhere, you're more than welcome to it Mark. From what i recall (I only watched it once), the paddling was good but all the bits in between were tedious and made it all seem a bit amateurish. Not a patch on some of the films from the likes of Penstock, TGR, YGP etc...

Incidently, I got a copy of InFlux through the post the other day which is great, the paddling is great but still seems acheivable to the average boater. It was one of those films that makes you want to stop wasting time watching films and to get up and go boating.
Last edited by David Fairweather on Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

andy i
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Post by andy i » Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:01 pm

Yep its not the best vid on the market.

If you want to see some good ones then try the TGR vids and all the ones by Alex Nicks.

Destonation Nowhere is also a top vid.

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Mark R
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Post by Mark R » Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:05 pm

skip wrote:Incidently, I got a copy of InFlux through the post the other day which is great, the paddling is great but still seems acheivable to the average boater. It was one of those films that makes you want to stop wasting tiume watching films and to get up and go boating.
I agree! It has a few duller moments (Ooh, paddlers throwing huge blunts and falling off huge waterfalls! How novel!) but the vast majority is pretty innovative, informative and entertaining as well as - this is rarely achieved - giving you a real flavour of the destinations involved.
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David Fairweather
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Post by David Fairweather » Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:33 pm

MarkR wrote:[It has a few duller moments (Ooh, paddlers throwing huge blunts and falling off huge waterfalls! How novel!)
Watch it again, when you are a reasonably profficient kayaker, and have enough experience to actually understand how gnarly what they paddle is.

This is satire, I'm well aware of Mark's paddling abilities

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morsey
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Post by morsey » Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:40 pm

I'm just glad Corran didn't use this as his inspiration clickly click me

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Post by adventurer185 » Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:52 pm

Morsey, that is a truely brilliant find!
There are some underlying egotistical similarities between the two me thinks... :-)
T

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Post by JK » Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:59 pm

I don't think End Game is a bad kayaking video. It's different to the YGP and Penstock generation of videos - not quite as "MTV".

I quite liked the fact that it shows the mistakes the paddlers make, not just constant perfect lines, boofs etc.,

That said, if I had to show a kayaking video to a non-kayaker, I'd show them Bigger Than Rodeo - good music, good sense of humour and some huge moves and drops.

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Post by ChrisMac » Mon Feb 06, 2006 6:49 pm

I enjoyed the fact that it is more than just 20 - 40 mins of big drops and big moves with no real context.

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Mark R
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Post by Mark R » Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:01 pm

morsey wrote:I'm just glad Corran didn't use this as his inspiration clickly click me
Arrrggh! That's the cheesiest thing I've seen since this.
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Post by Mark R » Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:04 pm

skip wrote:This is satire, I'm well aware of Mark's paddling abilities.
I'm certainly not - I can claim experience, but not exactly style or finesse.
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ol
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Post by ol » Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:25 pm

morsey wrote:I'm just glad Corran didn't use this as his inspiration clickly click me
I can only bring myself to believe that David is now an absolute genius and master in playing with the irony of himself as a singer and performer. The alternative is just too uncomfortable to bear.........wiiiiiiiiiincccccccce!!!

End Game, I agree, I was very put off by the Fear and Loathing(Well, Johnny Depps interpretation anyway) take-off but, as always, Corran is just trying to be different, oddly whilst also being the same, a la Fear and Loathing.

I really enjoyed the paddling in the video to be honest. It was different to the usual drop after drop huckfest you normally get. You also got a small sense of the life on the road angle, a little cultural interest in Chechnya etc, a little pasta in Italy/Corsica, a little nice ladies in Russia......
Some of the music is a little more interesting than the usual fare too.

If you can take it for what it is, a Corran Addison video, and therefore, accept there will be a little ego-massaging involved, then its a pretty enjoyable flick for a change. If you just want a re-hash of other films, big hucks set to some heavies, then look elsewhere.
OL

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James F
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Post by James F » Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:29 pm

I liked it. It's different; has more story/context than the huck, huck, hucking vids - which have reached the end of their game.

I also liked Air Force One as I learnt proper aerial back stabs and clean aerial blunts (not every time, mind!) from tips given.

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Post by MattD » Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:42 pm

I think it is right to suggest that an experienced and knowledgeable kayaker will more fully understand how excellent the footage is in End Game. I also think that if one is in a light-hearted mood when watching said film then one would see that Corran, in typical Corran style, is taking the mick out of all those other knobbly-wobbly paddling films that came out just before or around the same time. He wouldn’t have just done it cos he liked ‘Fear and Loathing…’!!!

As for accolade:
Phillipe Doux, Editor in Chief, Kayak Session Magazine wrote:The story telling and the editing set a new direction for extreme sports filmmaking
Steve Fisher, Producer, Wicked Liquid I & II wrote:Finally someone has created an entertaining kayaking story worth paying attention to – ‘Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas’ meets ‘Endless Summer II’
Lauren Zimmerman, Marketing Director, Suunto USA wrote:What these individuals do is on a par with any Hollywood Action Blockbuster

While I think his tone (like it’s possible to infer in TNR) has been taken badly, but the points that NickH made are valid, (IMHO).

MattD
Last edited by MattD on Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ryan Clements
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Post by Ryan Clements » Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:27 pm

MattD wrote:I think his tone (like it’s possible to infer in TNR) has been taken badly, the points that NickH made are valid, (IMHO).

MattD
I don't think it's simply a matter of tone, I know sometimes it's hard to get an idea of what is really meant when just reading text.

Nicks point would have been perfectly valid if he had made it without making value judgements of another forum user. For example "I liked the film and found this* or that* part good/useful", instead of "you're crap (and stupid) and therefore not entitled to your opinion".

As it stands he actually said nothing about the film at all. I'm not in a position to comment on the film- I haven't seen it! So I will say nothing specific about it until I have.....

I'm sorry if I have come across as being harsh or confrontational but I feel that nobody deserves to be discounted as incompetent just on the grounds of their opinion on a video.

Enough said on my part.... grumble, grumble. Ps, TNR (?)

*Insert description of the part you like.

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Mark R
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Post by Mark R » Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:30 pm

MattD wrote:
As for accolade:
Phillipe Doux, Editor in Chief, Kayak Session Magazine wrote:The story telling and the editing set a new direction for extreme sports filmmaking
Hmmm. Are you sure that's a compliment?

Either way, I really must see this film now. Any variation from hucks and blunts will suit me fine...
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MattD
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Post by MattD » Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:56 pm

The original poster decried the film as pathetic. That's a lot stronger than just an opinion - it's outright condemnation, and unjustifiably so (IMO). I think this is perhaps why NickH has reacted in such a way and why many others, whilst not saying it with quite the same fervor, have echoed Nick's sentiment.

I think End Game is a gem. It's a funny, interesting and captivating watch which really demonstrates what that particular aspect of the Kayaking lifestyle is all about. People who have not personally touched upon any of the articles in the movie will not be privee to the experiences and hence might well think the movie "pathetic". As sure as eggs is eggs, there will be some fantastic kayakers out there who think the movie is pathetic too, but most will not (I guess).

At one time I made a compression of the DVD for some expo somewhere. I reckon it's still on the net somewhere for free download, but can't find it right now...

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Post by RichA » Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:02 pm

Matt, I think he actually said that he was getting emails from his friends about it, and it was they that were saying it made kayaking look pathetic. There's a difference between that, and what you are accusing him of doing.

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Post by MattD » Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:09 pm

Shell wrote:...I am still getting emails telling me how pathetic kayaking looks, what's worse is that after that film I can;t argue with them...
I'm not trying to defend either side as I think they were both a bit strong in their use of language, but still: I vehemently disagree with the opinion that End Game makes kayaking look pathetic; or that kayaking could be, in any way, pathetic!

MattD

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Post by The Shell » Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:30 pm

Weeey heeeey, sorry chaps and chicks just got home to read this, and wait for it.....awesome!!!!

Nick you must be great banter in the bars.
And yes of course if you have something to say then this forum is free range to say it....although dont you think on your educated opinion would sound much better on the river? Or would that be competing for hardcoreness?

I dont know what the common definition of 'reasonable proficiency' is but i hope one day to get there. waaaay heeey

Funny i just sent a mate an email last night about keeping my head down in kayaking these days...mostly because of people like you, you should be flattered i care.

As for the video, perhaps i should have said that it simply just wasn't to my taste.
It's interesting to hear that some people like the chatting and gimmicks on boating vids i guess difference of taste and opinions is what makes the world interesting....i just hated the fact it was like 10 minutes before you even saw boat touch water.

Again just my opinion, but do we really need to know the names, thoughts and opinions of the people on the video. Isn't the respect for the water they're on enough! Hell i thought my (non kayaking) ego was big but all you ever hear is bloody names these days.

Anyway brain dump 2 for this post.

Oh and that offer to go on the river extends to all (Marv, Clements etc) cant wait for my shoulder to get fixed for more river banter with like minded folk.


Peace,
ryan

ps - and Nick next time you want to chew the cud with someone you dont even know, i suggest you wind your neck in sweetness x
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